06.16.09
Case Study: The Harms of Mono
The following chat took place 2 hours ago. Someone who goes by the name “IsBob” shared his story. Here are the unedited logs, which are hopefully as self-explanatory as they need be. █
| *IsBob () has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:01 | |
| splosion | https://www.furk.net/ here | Jun 16 11:01 |
|---|---|---|
| IsBob | hi there | Jun 16 11:01 |
| DaemonMDV | you know that Ubuntu has used a DMCA Take Down order once? | Jun 16 11:02 |
| DaemonMDV | ironically it was used against the MPAA | Jun 16 11:02 |
| DaemonMDV | so I’m all for it | Jun 16 11:02 |
| *fewa has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jun 16 11:03 | |
| DaemonMDV | the MPAA was distributing a “University anti-piracy toolkit” which used Xubuntu as its base | Jun 16 11:03 |
| DaemonMDV | in violation of the GPL | Jun 16 11:03 |
| DaemonMDV | so Ubuntu ordered them to remove it from their site | Jun 16 11:03 |
| DaemonMDV | which they did | Jun 16 11:03 |
| IsBob | I’m looking for some advice | Jun 16 11:04 |
| IsBob | my boss asked me (not directly of course) to make some public statements about Mono | Jun 16 11:04 |
| IsBob | we’re in a deal with Microsoft currently | Jun 16 11:04 |
| IsBob | the idea is to help a client migrate from Mono to pure .NET | Jun 16 11:05 |
| IsBob | and well, they found the ongoing fuss about Mono is not helping our company’s image | Jun 16 11:05 |
| IsBob | the fact is, I’m not comfortable with doing such things | Jun 16 11:06 |
| schestowitz | Hi, IsBob | Jun 16 11:06 |
| schestowitz | What advice do you need? | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | And how do I know that you’re not pulling our leg? | Jun 16 11:07 |
| IsBob | huh? | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | We’ve been trolled a lot recently | Jun 16 11:07 |
| IsBob | My problem is, I’m in an untenable position now | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | So I am being cautious | Jun 16 11:07 |
| schestowitz | A company using Mono does not have a problem | Jun 16 11:08 |
| IsBob | I’ve made some public statements about Mono and how Microsoft intends to use it | Jun 16 11:08 |
| schestowitz | Not in the sense of public image | Jun 16 11:08 |
| schestowitz | The issue is with packagers who want to force people to spread it | Jun 16 11:08 |
| schestowitz | Not with users | Jun 16 11:08 |
| IsBob | and now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my management | Jun 16 11:08 |
| *mib_q79ffb has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) | Jun 16 11:08 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft spreads its API | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Mono is good for Microsoft | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | For more than one reason | Jun 16 11:09 |
| IsBob | I know all of that, I’ve seen it from the inside | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | it is preferable to use Java, Python, Perl, CGI, etc. | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Depending on the area of use | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Mono is about monoculture | Jun 16 11:09 |
| schestowitz | Making all enterprise do it the One Microsoft Way | Jun 16 11:10 |
| schestowitz | c#, AD, VS, XAML, erc. | Jun 16 11:10 |
| schestowitz | *etc | Jun 16 11:10 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:10 | |
| schestowitz | Hi, oiaohm | Jun 16 11:12 |
| IsBob | schestowitz: I’ve tried to explain that to my management; we used to have our clients work on free software, and now we’re stuck in a deal where we’re making them migrate away | Jun 16 11:14 |
| oiaohm | Hi schestowitz | Jun 16 11:15 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: how deep is this dependency on Mono? | Jun 16 11:16 |
| *Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@2001:690:2380:7770:21b:24ff:fed0:3f98) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:17 | |
| schestowitz | If it’s some C# code, then you can still port to Java | Jun 16 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Oracle is very committed to Java | Jun 16 11:17 |
| schestowitz | It’s one of the main reasons for oracle buying SUN. I read last year that Ellison wanted to rip .NET apart | Jun 16 11:17 |
| IsBob | there are 500 kloc already, it’s way too late to migrate to another language | Jun 16 11:18 |
| schestowitz | Oracle is about as big as Microsoft and its market cap is not muchly shy. In fact, Oracle just deliberately spends a lot less on marketing… | Jun 16 11:18 |
| IsBob | but anyway, that’s not my problem right now | Jun 16 11:18 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: what’s running it? Mono? | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Mono is a ramp for VS+.NET adoption | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Mono too slow? | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Migrate to .NET | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Like free supper | Jun 16 11:19 |
| IsBob | currently Mono, and we’re migrating to .Net yes | Jun 16 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Or trial versionware | Jun 16 11:19 |
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| schestowitz | Oracle might do something similar with mysql | Jun 16 11:19 |
| IsBob | my problem is about my management wanting me to do public statements I disagree with | Jun 16 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Why migrate to .NET? I’m curious. | Jun 16 11:20 |
| oiaohm | IsBob: remember this year websites that can run ofline is coming. | Jun 16 11:20 |
| IsBob | I’m not sure why, since M$ made a deal with our client they’ve been pretty elusive about that | Jun 16 11:21 |
| oiaohm | I am looking at it for a lot of client side work internal. OS netural and will need nothering more than a Upto date webbrowser installed. | Jun 16 11:21 |
| IsBob | one of my co-workers suspects they paid a big trip to Hawaii for some of the managers of our client | Jun 16 11:21 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: so you think they might come to them and say “look, you’re using our IP and all, so either you pay or move to .NET?” | Jun 16 11:21 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: yes, Microsoft gifts people | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | It’s a form of bribe | Jun 16 11:22 |
| IsBob | clearly | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Common. Many examples in MS’c ase | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | *MS’s | Jun 16 11:22 |
| IsBob | I don’t think they might do it, i think they already did | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Mono is a ramp | Jun 16 11:22 |
| IsBob | assorted with a nice “gift” | Jun 16 11:22 |
| oiaohm | You are aware as of yet mono does not work on arm and mips. | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | had they used Java, migration would be complicated | Jun 16 11:22 |
| schestowitz | But this is EEE – embrace, extend… | Jun 16 11:23 |
| oiaohm | So clients are being locked out of furture more power effective client options IsBob | Jun 16 11:23 |
| oiaohm | There are technical issues with mono. | Jun 16 11:23 |
| oiaohm | That can be targetted avoiding the complete IP issue. | Jun 16 11:24 |
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| DaemonMDV | http://www.macworld.com/article/137… | Jun 16 11:24 |
| DaemonMDV | The guy buys 2,419 DRM’d 129k tracks | Jun 16 11:25 |
| *mib_kcgay0 has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 16 11:25 | |
| IsBob | my N+2 ordered a complete blackout about what happened, and we’re strongly “encouraged” to publish things that will increase Mono’s acceptance | Jun 16 11:25 |
| DaemonMDV | then complains that he was cheated when Apple wants more money to upgrade him to what he should have had in the first place | Jun 16 11:25 |
| DaemonMDV | (256k no DRM) | Jun 16 11:25 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: encouraged by whom? | Jun 16 11:25 |
| schestowitz | Novell? Microsoft? | Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | by our management | Jun 16 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV | dear god, if he has $2500 to spend on iTunes tracks, you’d think 30 cents apiece would be easy to fork over | Jun 16 11:26 |
| DaemonMDV |  |
Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | not sure who’s behind | Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | of course we already have a big contract with Novell | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | It’s the same with MS/Novell cotnracts | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | I know cause I was told | Jun 16 11:26 |
| IsBob | and they probably don’t want to have to renegociate it | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | They go to clients… | Jun 16 11:26 |
| splosion | be a whistleblower. this is the sort of thing wikileaks was invented for | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | And they tell them to put “IP” in the press releases | Jun 16 11:26 |
| schestowitz | As in, we’ll sell you SUSE coupons at a discount is you publicly promote these | Jun 16 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | yeah, of course you will no doubt be fired if they figure out it was you | Jun 16 11:27 |
| schestowitz | I.e. promote ‘Linux tax’ (MS patents | Jun 16 11:27 |
| IsBob | splosion: I’m pretty sure I could be identified very quickly if anything leaks | Jun 16 11:27 |
| schestowitz | For a bribe | Jun 16 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | (goes without saying) | Jun 16 11:27 |
| IsBob | I already made some statements against Mono and M$ in the past | Jun 16 11:27 |
| oiaohm | Does not matter really IsBob. IBM is gearing up to go after the Small business market with Linux. | Jun 16 11:27 |
| schestowitz | splosion: +1 | Jun 16 11:27 |
| splosion | IsBob: bummer | Jun 16 11:27 |
| DaemonMDV | Easy URPMI is still not back up | Jun 16 11:28 |
| DaemonMDV | odd | Jun 16 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Basically your bosses should be asking who is going to win. IBM and Orcale or MS. | Jun 16 11:28 |
| DaemonMDV | but shows how much people depend on less than legal stuff | Jun 16 11:28 |
| DaemonMDV | frankly it kind of sickens me that Vorbis is free and hardly anything uses it | Jun 16 11:29 |
| schestowitz | So basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NET | Jun 16 11:29 |
| schestowitz | Then it can start shouting “IP” and “thieves” and offer .NET (Windows only) | Jun 16 11:29 |
| schestowitz | It’s so predictable | Jun 16 11:29 |
| oiaohm | Both Orcale and IBM have cards in play schestowitz. | Jun 16 11:29 |
| oiaohm | As with all battles there are some wins and some losses. | Jun 16 11:30 |
| DaemonMDV | I found out this Sansa thing is a PlaysForSure device | Jun 16 11:30 |
| DaemonMDV | probably why it’s so unfriendly with non-Microsoft media players trying to sync it | Jun 16 11:30 |
| oiaohm | In the scale of importance a few wins here and there for .net are not going to help MS long term. | Jun 16 11:30 |
| IsBob | schestowitz: so I will probably have to make public statements about Mono soon | Jun 16 11:31 |
| IsBob | and I wonder how many of the similar statements we’ve seen recently have been made by people in the same situation | Jun 16 11:31 |
| oiaohm | Can you still cover emerging techs IsBob | Jun 16 11:31 |
| oiaohm | like vala from gnome and state of samba. | Jun 16 11:31 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: bought opinions | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft does lots of it | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | E.g. Tesco example from last week in BN | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | ASUS’ fake “Windows is better” | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | “vendor recommends Vista” (Microsoft bribes for this too) | Jun 16 11:32 |
| oiaohm | Creativity the say not to say anything bad against mono. There is nothing stopping talking about the competing techs. | Jun 16 11:32 |
| DaemonMDV | of course it is, you know just what to expect out of it | Jun 16 11:32 |
| DaemonMDV | *cough* | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | “We’re interested in IP peace of mind” (not exact quote) | Jun 16 11:32 |
| schestowitz | But I never expected better from a company of thugs | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | Bribing people to utters marketing lies | Jun 16 11:33 |
| IsBob | I wonder whether similar things are happening at Canonical, given their recent moves | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | And later they point to it.. | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | And say… | Jun 16 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | schestowitz: According to Alexa’s site rank, almost every Linux-related site is going up | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | “Look, Dell recommends Vista” | Jun 16 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | but Microsoft.com has gone down over 5% | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | and “HP recommends Vista” | Jun 16 11:33 |
| DaemonMDV | in this quarter | Jun 16 11:33 |
| schestowitz | And “everyone loves Mono” | Jun 16 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | despite all the Windows 7 blitz | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | “Lyons and Enderle and Didio say that SCO is going to win the trial” | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | Don’t get me started on the Vista7 slog | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | They bribe bloggers | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | They bribe journalists | Jun 16 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | it still dwarfs any Linux distro’s website hits | Jun 16 11:34 |
| schestowitz | And they attack those who say the truth | Jun 16 11:34 |
| DaemonMDV | but it is on the way down | Jun 16 11:34 |
| oiaohm | Are those hits counting windows update DaemonMDV | Jun 16 11:35 |
| schestowitz | It plays dirtty | Jun 16 11:35 |
| schestowitz | [on its way down] | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | well, that’s not good for them, that their site is getting less popular despite so much advertising | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | no | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | only browsers | Jun 16 11:35 |
| DaemonMDV | Microsoft.com is the 18th most trafficked site in the United States | Jun 16 11:36 |
| IsBob | it pains me to see all of that because I’m exactly in the same situation, with hands tied | Jun 16 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | Ubuntu was like 2400-something | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Windows Update is Akamai (Linux) | Jun 16 11:36 |
| IsBob | I wonder what we can do to stop people from using that Mono crap | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | DaemonMDV: nope | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Alexa is no gold standard | Jun 16 11:36 |
| oiaohm | People finding out information on patches from windows update show up as hits DaemonMDV if it covering technet. | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | It’s stupid to even make it believable | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | IsBob: join the fight | Jun 16 11:36 |
| DaemonMDV | technet is a different domain | Jun 16 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Expose what you can | Jun 16 11:37 |
| schestowitz | It’s possible to do both | Jun 16 11:37 |
| schestowitz | Do the job and leaking the truth | Jun 16 11:37 |
| schestowitz | Many things in BN are based on whistle blowers | Jun 16 11:37 |
| oiaohm | Just had to ask some stats sites group them DaemonMDV. | Jun 16 11:37 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:37 | |
| oiaohm | IsBob: when you are forbin to talk about something always ask what you are not forbin to talk about. | Jun 16 11:37 |
| oiaohm | sometimes the not forbin can block what you are forbin to talk about. | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Forbidden = “we are doing something bad” | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Or “don’t ask” | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Honest people work openly | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | Like here in BN | Jun 16 11:38 |
| schestowitz | We don’t do PMs | Jun 16 11:39 |
| schestowitz | And some people still try to trip us up this way | Jun 16 11:39 |
| oiaohm | I have had to work under all sorts of different conditions. | Jun 16 11:39 |
| DaemonMDV | http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/15/th… | Jun 16 11:40 |
| oiaohm | Lot of times taking a positive line in a different direction is simpler than dispute and still can be long term effective. | Jun 16 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | Also, the comments on the Times Web site are truly disheartening: “This invention is stupid die die die.” Calm down, sirs. | Jun 16 11:40 |
| DaemonMDV | lmao | Jun 16 11:40 |
| oiaohm | God that knife is useless. | Jun 16 11:41 |
| oiaohm | Slash stab method would still work perfectly with it. | Jun 16 11:41 |
| DaemonMDV | well, it was invented in Sweden to be sold in the UK | Jun 16 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | can’t really go too hard on it | Jun 16 11:43 |
| oiaohm | Besides I do use the point of knife when cooking at times. | Jun 16 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV |  |
Jun 16 11:43 |
| DaemonMDV | well, if I bought the knife, why would I have bought it? | Jun 16 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | so *I* can’t stab anyone? | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | People will DIY their knives | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | What a stupid idea | Jun 16 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | Maybe I’ll just make up my own damned mind whether I want to stab someone | Jun 16 11:44 |
| DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they should also make hands that work only in the kitchen | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | And ban metal | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Or… | Jun 16 11:44 |
| schestowitz | “Honey, will you please come to the kitchen?” | Jun 16 11:45 |
| DaemonMDV | well get this, you buy them, then get rid of your old knives | Jun 16 11:45 |
| DaemonMDV | then someone breaks into your house | Jun 16 11:45 |
| schestowitz | They relocate the crime | Jun 16 11:45 |
| *Np237 (n=joss@diva.malsain.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 16 11:45 | |
| DaemonMDV | and you wish you had a knife to protect yourself with | Jun 16 11:45 |
| Np237 | heya | Jun 16 11:45 |
| schestowitz | Good luck going to people’s house confiscating all the old utensils | Jun 16 11:45 |
| schestowitz | Np237: hey, what’s up? | Jun 16 11:45 |
| *IsBob has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 16 11:45 | |
Content is available under CC-BY-SA
David Gerard said,
June 16, 2009 at 7:51 am
Minor offtopic detail: it wasn’t Ubuntu or Canonical DMCAing the MPAA, it was Matthew Garrett personally as a kernel developer. See:
http://mjg59.livejournal.com/78590.html
http://mjg59.livejournal.com/78698.html
the11thplague said,
June 16, 2009 at 8:28 am
That man was looking for an advice… Are you sure it’s right to publish this sort of things ?
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 16th, 2009 at 9:01 am
It’s a publicly-logged channel and it states this upfront. So either way, the logs appear the following day.
eet said,
June 16, 2009 at 8:51 am
Whoever is stupid enough to ask Roy for advice doesn’t deserve any better.
twitter Reply:
June 17th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
So why are you here all the time? Oh yeah, to harass, threaten and intimidate. What a wasted life you lead.
ddt said,
June 16, 2009 at 10:32 am
So I am reading the log and I could not understand what this is a case study of?
So IsBob’s company is migrating their code from Linux to Windows, how is that Mono’s problem?
And how does any other system (Java, PHP, Python) would have prevented this?
It seems like Mr IsBob is a troll.
Jose_X Reply:
June 17th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
The connection is that, of the platforms you mentioned, mono/dotnet is where the better platform and greater hooks exist with the Windows version. That is because of the huge investment and control Microsoft has over that platform but not over Java, php, etc.
Jose_X said,
June 16, 2009 at 11:36 am
Let’s turn this spotlight into a bit of a positive.
Here is “my” advice this morning.
I think oiaohm gave the best practical advice. It might be illegal or be bad for the reputation of the company to ask someone to say things that are significantly untruthful. I think, unless you want to risk losing your job (and in some countries you might be able to sue with a good chance of winning.. if you want to take that route), or outright quit, or ask to be moved around (risk job or bonus or something else), then you just need to try to keep to the truth and your conscience by being tactful over what you do say or not. oiaohm mentioned focusing on positives in areas where you can speak. Of course, if you do anything but kiss management’s hiney, you might be risking job, bonus, etc.
Companies flirt with lawsuits all the time I suppose.
I also wonder how many of Microsoft’s NDAs would be illegal because they involve illegal actions?
And the deeper you get into something, the more things you put in play (to risk losing).
Going along with dirtiness might be (a short-term) positive for your career. I wonder what fraction of management has sold out to even have had a chance to reach a certain position? At Microsoft, it’s tough for me to imagine that Ballmer (Gates, etc) works (worked) with any but those that had proven themselves to get dirty for the sake of the company (actually that would be different than here where perhaps a small number of management might have sold the company short).
IsBob should also consider going to authorities for advice… or to a lawyer. He might be able to work from the inside, but staying with the law and with law enforcement authorities aware.
In fact, anyone in a similar position should probably visit the local law enforcement agency. I don’t think they charge money for advice. I don’t deal with these issues, but, then again, I have taken myself out of certain markets.
You might find a way to communicate the opposite message through some other means (unofficially).
It’s a shame.
And why do I get the feeling so repeatedly that Microsoft …hmmm… I wonder how many vendors win major accounts by winning the bribing game? Forget about what is good for your company or for your constituents, users, employees, co-workers, stockholders, etc. Just sign us up and enjoy a much easier path than you might otherwise if you deal with an (more) honest company.
Glad IsBob spoke up about the issue. And, yes, IsBob might be pulling our legs, absolutely. I assume IsBob is representative of some that might be in such a position.
twitter Reply:
June 17th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
IsBob needs to do as he is told just long enough to find another job. He has realized his employers are unethical, so finding another job is the best thing to do. People who tell you to lie to others are also lying to you. As the Slog Doc puts it, developers are “pawns” and “one night stands.” Mono is a dead end, so every day he stays there harms others and himself.
Collect evidence and publish once you are out isBob. Nothing revealed so far is an NDA violation but publication should be anonymous to protect against retaliation. M$ has ruined people for less and they will target you in the future regardless of what you do. Truth is the best weapon against evil and lies. Good luck and good cheer to you, Microsoft is a dying company and won’t be around too much longer.
Sabayon User (Sabayon == Gentoo, kthx) said,
June 16, 2009 at 12:06 pm
Anyone else beyond Roy’s close circle of friends find this terribly convenient? The same talking points, the same type of writing style, the oblique references to the “situation” at Canonical? The classic “oh help me, my manager is an evil man and wants me to do bad M$ things to hurt freedom”. The easy way IsBob quickly convinced Roy that he was for real and paved the way to the usual additional talking points… and of course a spot on the front page.
And why remove the IP address from the IRC login message?
What a coincidence. What a wonderful piece of “evidence” that people out there are being “hurt” by the evil Mono. Waaay too convenient, especially coming in the heels of this just yesterday.