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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 3rd, 2008

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tessierhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/...Sep 03 02:32
tessierHans Reiser is being sued by his kids.Sep 03 02:32
tessierActually, by a lawyer on behalf of his kids.Sep 03 02:33
tessierI don't think money will make those kids (7 and 8 years old) feel any better.Sep 03 02:33
tessierNot that their dad has any money.Sep 03 02:33
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schestowitzAsay just can't help mocking desktop Linux again: http://www.linux-foundation.org/we...Sep 03 09:07
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moparxqSep 03 09:51
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MinceRhttp://tapthehive.com/discuss/This_Post_Not...   http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does...Sep 03 10:34
schestowitz"1. Google reserves the right to automatically update and install Chrome."Sep 03 10:34
schestowitzit's probably about control, but there are some benefits too. It's better to let a Foundation (non-profit, sorta) like  Mozilla handle things /without/ bundling and elevating other things.Sep 03 10:36
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schestowitzJust got this: "Google Chrome copies IE says MICROS~1 Jack .. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo..."Sep 03 12:09
trmancoschestowitz, too bad my OS doesn't support that browser so I can give it a try, I know I can compile it but I do't think its worth it :PSep 03 12:10
trmancodon'tSep 03 12:10
trmancotried with wine but I have to do some hacks before I can run without crashingSep 03 12:11
schestowitzHere's my guess:Sep 03 12:11
schestowitzI realise that the Windows version still needs some 'ironing': http://beranger.org/index.php?page=...Sep 03 12:12
trmancoYou have to grab some DLL's to run it without crashing -> http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.ph...Sep 03 12:12
schestowitzI bet Google already has some more beta/prototypes, but in order to keep its brand value high, it won't let the public have it (just yet)Sep 03 12:12
schestowitzAs usual, as with every Google software, everything is labeled Beta, but it usually works decen tlySep 03 12:13
trmancoyes maybeSep 03 12:13
trmancowowSep 03 12:14
trmancololSep 03 12:14
trmancoI don't really think that one tab one process thingy is a good optionSep 03 12:15
trmancolets say I have 50 tabs, well I will get 50 processesSep 03 12:15
schestowitzI haven't looked into it, but I reckon FF beats it easily because of XUL extension.Sep 03 12:15
trmancoyesSep 03 12:16
trmancoFirefox 3.1 will beat the ass out of it with tracemonkey  :PSep 03 12:16
schestowitzI've seen at least one complaint over the lack of extensions. I can also guess that HTTP header sniffing will be a barrier, just as it is to Konqueror Sep 03 12:16
schestowitzIOW. ignorant Webmasters will help Microsoft (not deliberately).Sep 03 12:17
schestowitzFF3 already performs better than most in terms of JS:  http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10...Sep 03 12:18
schestowitz[OT RANT: Now I'll have to wash  my hands for linking to CNET. There's little choice these days. The publications that don't sell out just don't survive. They serve commercial interests rather than information.]Sep 03 12:19
trmancotry the sunspider testSep 03 12:19
trmancowith FF3.1 with tracemonkey than we can compareSep 03 12:19
schestowitzI won't be testing it.Sep 03 12:20
schestowitzOthers have already done it and I have just 2 or 3 browsers.Sep 03 12:20
trmancoI tested it once, that screwed up my profile because I wasn't thinking right, forgot to create a testing profile :|Sep 03 12:21
schestowitzTalk about spin (not as in "taking it for a spin") from Seattle: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/3...Sep 03 12:22
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 3 12:34:29 2008
*Now talking on #boycottnovellSep 03 12:34
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications (publicly logged)Sep 03 12:34
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Wed Jun 4 08:34:16 2008Sep 03 12:34
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelSep 03 12:34
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schestowitzHey, jose.Sep 03 13:08
josehelloSep 03 13:08
schestowitzThe Gates Fundation [sic] has just appointed Raikes its new CEO, but I'm not sure what to make ot it.Sep 03 13:08
schestowitz*ofSep 03 13:08
josethis person http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/jeff/ ?Sep 03 13:10
schestowitzYes, he left one of Microsoft's only profitable divisions.Sep 03 13:12
schestowitzBear in mind that Microsoft is cooking the books and several people are aware of this (we discussed this the other day).Sep 03 13:13
joseall of these people from Microsoft spread out potentially with a similar agenda .. bad, but are antitrust or other authorities likely to (be able to) do something about it?Sep 03 13:15
schestowitzMight the new appointment suggest or reinforce the supposition that the Gates Fundation [sic] is a vehicle for Microsoft liquidation and influence?Sep 03 13:15
schestowitzBTW, Microsoft has a new 'insider' in BBC. He left Microsoft and took over... joining other Microsofties in the BBC. I'll post about this shortly.Sep 03 13:15
joseit's as if you had all of these companies across industry perhaps all under one roof, but in behavior and maybe insider info not in terms of official relationshipsSep 03 13:15
josemy gut tells me "of course this is sinister" as i allude to in posts from time to time, but I am also asking from the pov of is there evidence/laws so that someone will do something about this?Sep 03 13:17
schestowitzI'd have to extend the list.. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/...Sep 03 13:17
joseit weighs down on me a bit that authorities approach towards some MS abuses that seem so clear (and look at the usdoj years back) still manage to take forever and accomplish littleSep 03 13:19
josedefinitely we don't have to depend on anyone in order to create convincing material for the public ... eg, boycottnovell..Sep 03 13:20
schestowitzIt doesn't have reach.Sep 03 13:21
joseactually, i was going to post under the article about the patent demonstration how we should get organized with a website to encourage and facilitate others to engage effectively in letter writing and other types of campaignsSep 03 13:22
schestowitzMost of the readers (about 45%) are GNU/Linux users, so we preach to those who already know the turth.Sep 03 13:22
josegeekpac is a start though i would like something more generalSep 03 13:22
schestowitzI'm against fighting lobbying with a lobby.Sep 03 13:22
joseyeahSep 03 13:22
schestowitzIt's fire versus fire.Sep 03 13:22
josebut not "lobby"Sep 03 13:23
schestowitzTheir fire is a big nation-wide wild fire.Sep 03 13:23
schestowitzSeen what Lessig does?Sep 03 13:23
joseum.. have ideas, but no not reallySep 03 13:23
joseon lessigSep 03 13:23
schestowitzHe almost joined parliament after fighting against it for years. Instead, he now wants a Grand Change.Sep 03 13:24
schestowitzThe type of reform one might seek in FOSS is one that demotes or punishes those that sell out.Sep 03 13:24
josewhy did you mention "lobby" .. is it because of "geekpac"Sep 03 13:24
schestowitzRegulation too is an issue and exposition of those who astroturf and believe they won't get caught (vote-stuffing, pseudo-journalism, etc).Sep 03 13:25
josewell, we have manpower to influence who gains over others.Sep 03 13:25
schestowitzWas GeekPAC not a response to it?Sep 03 13:25
josewe reward the better businesses and fork as necessarySep 03 13:25
schestowitzjose: we need to appoach a population that is not aware of it.Sep 03 13:25
josedocumentation/transparency is important and we already do that collectivelySep 03 13:26
schestowitzThere is a massive-scale brainwash that affects 90+% of the population, which is fed adverts and sound bites from 'officials'.Sep 03 13:26
josedefinitelySep 03 13:26
joseback to "lobby" .. why did you associate with that term?Sep 03 13:26
schestowitzThe press rarely approaches me or Shane for opinions on Microsoft/Novell.Sep 03 13:26
schestowitzI probably need to learn what GeekPAC is about. I probably got the wrong impression.Sep 03 13:27
joseok then let's put lobby aside for the momentSep 03 13:27
joseBN has tons of information..Sep 03 13:27
schestowitzAnd links.Sep 03 13:28
schestowitzIt's more of an organisation of info.Sep 03 13:28
joseas an example, start "campaings". these have specific goalsSep 03 13:28
jose...yes...Sep 03 13:28
schestowitzBN helps me organise my thoughts and keep track of names.Sep 03 13:28
jose...yes...Sep 03 13:29
schestowitzCampaigns may need resources too.Sep 03 13:29
joseresources: webpage that lays out arguments..Sep 03 13:29
jose.. for the specific campaignSep 03 13:29
schestowitzGiven the sad state of capping and tied Web, I don't hold much hope for openness, long-term. Just watch that blogger that the police slaughtered in Russia last week.Sep 03 13:29
jose.. details like whom to contact, when, howSep 03 13:29
joseok, let's put this aside (i may post what i had written down later)Sep 03 13:30
josecustom linux distrosSep 03 13:31
schestowitzThanks.Sep 03 13:31
josethese can form a central focus for reaching out to people.. geeks and nongeeksSep 03 13:31
*schestowitz remembers rPath, which got ruined by NovellSep 03 13:31
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schestowitzYes, that too.Sep 03 13:31
josedistros can be made to address hobbies, concerns (eg, political), etc.Sep 03 13:32
schestowitzUbuntu Studio for example is optimised at kernel level to appeal to and to suit pros.Sep 03 13:32
josewhat happened to rpathSep 03 13:32
schestowitzrPath turns to SLED.Sep 03 13:32
schestowitzOr SLES, depending on where it's used.Sep 03 13:32
josedon't understandSep 03 13:32
schestowitzLet me fetch the URLSep 03 13:32
josekSep 03 13:33
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/23...Sep 03 13:33
joseeg, when is bn going to get it's own official distro... btw, hey liberviscoSep 03 13:33
schestowitzjose: we had a joke distro (SueMe Linux)Sep 03 13:33
joseit'll get done.. jokes are funnySep 03 13:34
josethey sellSep 03 13:34
schestowitzJust hours ago I removed the link to its domain because cybersquatters took over it (Shane didn't renew reg.)Sep 03 13:34
josethat's alright.. a bit disappointing, but worse things have happenedSep 03 13:35
schestowitzjose: it was  a Slax-based Live CD with so-called 'patent-protected' packages. It was a statement more than anything and people brought attention to it.Sep 03 13:35
schestowitzShane didn't renew because the cost of hosting was high compared to the impact it had (number of people who absorbed the message).Sep 03 13:35
josewhat was the specific domainSep 03 13:35
josenameSep 03 13:35
joseand distro title.. use ""Sep 03 13:35
schestowitzsuemelinux dot com I think.Sep 03 13:35
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/sear...Sep 03 13:36
jose.com is taken but most other endings are there including .tvSep 03 13:36
joseand .netSep 03 13:36
joseone day linux distros might get their own top level... .lnx or somethingSep 03 13:37
josejust watchSep 03 13:37
schestowitzYes, but we're not restoring it.Sep 03 13:37
schestowitzMore room for cybercrime with more suffixes. :-(Sep 03 13:38
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworlduk.com/TOOLBOX/OPEN-SOU...Sep 03 13:38
jose"For the former, it means that domain names will turn into a kind of protection racket: every so often, somebody will come up with some new domain – things along the lines of .mug, I imagine – that all companies will be invited to sign up for, just to protect their trademarks, you understand."Sep 03 13:40
josei want to make a community from people making custom distros. the goal is to encompass millions.Sep 03 13:47
josenot just millions of people but millions of distrosSep 03 13:47
joseeg, byodix: build your own distro linuxSep 03 13:48
schestowitzThat's possible with today's tools.Sep 03 13:48
josewould teach step by step how to put one togetherSep 03 13:48
schestowitzIt won't be long  before many people walk around with their custom bootable distro on a keychain or the network.Sep 03 13:48
joseworking on making a distro will exercise creative juices and lead to a lot of ideas usable for all distros including many new apps and improvements/optimizationsSep 03 13:49
josei want to involve motivate and tap into the ideas of jack/jill userSep 03 13:50
josethis is how you beat microsoft and their networkSep 03 13:50
schestowitzIsn't there an existing such effort?Sep 03 13:50
joseultimately, they'll have to give away the code like we do (as well as $0) if they want to competeSep 03 13:51
josetell meSep 03 13:51
schestowitzNovell has Mono-polysoft [sic]Sep 03 13:51
josewhat the ?Sep 03 13:51
MinceRlolSep 03 13:51
MinceRlink?Sep 03 13:51
schestowitzNo, not that.Sep 03 13:51
schestowitzEither way, Novell is extended the .NET way.Sep 03 13:52
schestowitzMicrosoft is not at [E] number 2, before extinguishing Novell. It tries to expand the Mono-poly using Novell.Sep 03 13:52
schestowitz*now, not "not"Sep 03 13:52
josei consider doing anything for novell as doing it for msft. it's that simple. whether novl gets bought, buried, whateverSep 03 13:53
liberviscoHi joseSep 03 13:55
joseheySep 03 13:55
liberviscoHow are you?Sep 03 13:55
liberviscoI was wondering if you've seen Landy..Sep 03 13:55
josemore or less as I was a year ago :)Sep 03 13:55
josebut one year olderSep 03 13:56
liberviscoheheSep 03 13:56
joseno, i haven'tSep 03 13:56
josei dropped by nuxified only once or twice in months and i've also been mia wrt thetuxprojectSep 03 13:57
jose... as for distros.. i think i will try to design roughly distros that might appeal to various groups and then email/post to see if people get motivated..Sep 03 14:00
josecustom environments to go.comSep 03 14:01
liberviscoyeah, he totally disappeared :SSep 03 14:01
liberviscohmm wait.. there's a post by him on tuxproject..Sep 03 14:02
joseyou've tried his various emails i gather (nuxified, tp, etc)Sep 03 14:02
jose10 months old?Sep 03 14:02
liberviscono, about the Stephen Fry videoSep 03 14:02
josethat's freshSep 03 14:02
liberviscoyesterdaySep 03 14:02
liberviscoI tried three emails nowSep 03 14:02
liberviscohe's the only one with access, from what I know, to the paypal account with gamefest prize money and winners have been waiting a while for it :SSep 03 14:03
joseoh, i cSep 03 14:04
joseo i cSep 03 14:04
josedo you know if reptiler has considered helping out the main LFS family of projects? he can have his own AND maybe share some things with them.. not that he'd want to, have time, or anything else....Sep 03 14:06
joselibervisco, post under one of the gamefest forum topics saying how it's over and ....Sep 03 14:08
liberviscoyeah I've been waiting for people to get their prizes first..Sep 03 14:08
liberviscointerestingly, not even thelinuxstore.ca and Zareason are responding, though I doubt any of the winners would take that one up (being in Europe)..Sep 03 14:09
liberviscoanyway, that might be slightly offtopic here?Sep 03 14:10
josejust sent him a quick email via tpSep 03 14:12
jose[ignoring the off topic remark...] libervisco, do you know of a forum where we could.. and are you interested in starting up design work on one or more gamefest distros?Sep 03 14:13
josebefore getting in too deep.. i want to rally numerous groups so that we all start to share ideas.. a goal of the group would be to sell mainstream on linuxSep 03 14:15
schestowitzI posted the Fry thing ti Digg and it made a front page. :-)Sep 03 14:15
liberviscoWell.. to be honest I scaled down my freedomware efforts for the time being..Sep 03 14:15
joseall sorts of skills would be required and it would be great if there was a watering hole where everyone, parallel to working on their own batch of distros, gathered to share ideas and ask questions etcSep 03 14:15
joseschestowitz.. i'll take a lookSep 03 14:16
joselibervisco, i imagine.. but this is about making a distro not so much about gamefest... since you can pick a different topic.. i just threw that outSep 03 14:16
josei think i am going to have to do some design work and then work slowly to sell people on it.Sep 03 14:17
liberviscoI like the idea.. I think we talked a bit about that on nuxified as well and I'd formally support it (through nuxified)..Sep 03 14:17
liberviscoWhat do you mean by design though?Sep 03 14:18
josestarts at high level.. what will the "experience" be likeSep 03 14:18
liberviscoohSep 03 14:18
josei'm big on documentation and making things as easy as possible.. because i'd like every person to be able to contribute and do their own.. and feel good about it.. and tell their friends.... :)Sep 03 14:19
josewhenever two people get together.. there is a topic of interest.. and there might just be a distro they'd want to work on [i'm exaggerating a bit]Sep 03 14:19
schestowitzJust a little.Sep 03 14:20
schestowitzThere are Free software content CDs though. People love that.Sep 03 14:21
josea distro is like an app package but with the whole kit-n-kaboodle and with hd space dropping, VMs, and some more standards in place, we can have our hard drives littered with theseSep 03 14:21
josenaw.. not an app. a whole environment/presentationSep 03 14:21
joseunrelated apps don't interact too much since well.. people haven't been doing that and also, they'd step on each others toes.. eg, not every "app" can initialize the entire menu system of the desktop as well as of your app as well as of "opponent" apps ;)Sep 03 14:22
josevideos popping upSep 03 14:23
josea "beryl" that actually revolved around your project or distro themeSep 03 14:23
schestowitzHow so?Sep 03 14:24
schestowitzIsn't Beryl renamed and changed now anyway? It's no longer controlled by Novell (Compiz).Sep 03 14:24
jose[not literally "revolves", btw]Sep 03 14:24
schestowitz:-)Sep 03 14:24
josei'm not suggesting anything that is new.. i really think that vanilla distros don't come out of the box to solve problem X.Sep 03 14:26
joseby necessity that is the case.Sep 03 14:26
josebut taking vanilla distro and shaping it into something impressive and custom takes time and skillSep 03 14:26
josenow i'm lost :/Sep 03 14:26
joselet's get more tangible.. there is BNixSep 03 14:27
josecan you think of what you'd like a nice little CD/DVD/pendrive/etc to hold inside for a user that wanted to get invovled with boycotting novell (just picked BN as an example)Sep 03 14:27
schestowitzI thought about it, but..Sep 03 14:28
joseimagine if pressing function keys changed the sound on the mouse as it movedSep 03 14:28
schestowitzThe thing about BN is that it explores more than just Novell now.Sep 03 14:28
josesure.. i'm just trying to pick some specific for illustration purposesSep 03 14:29
schestowitzIf you follow the links (not in the hyperlinks sense), then you get closer to the root of the problem.Sep 03 14:29
schestowitzInsiders, patent laws, lobbyists, etc.Sep 03 14:29
joseall of this is itching to get printed on a discSep 03 14:29
schestowitzIOW, we can effectively address the problem better now just with information about Novell, but also  using information that's peripheral to it.Sep 03 14:29
josebuild your storyline through the distroSep 03 14:29
schestowitzHow to distribute?Sep 03 14:30
schestowitzBlackrabbit suggested writing a book, but who would buy?Sep 03 14:30
schestowitzThe dissemination of information through physical media is passe for most things.Sep 03 14:30
josetake the people on a journey.. maybe a version of BNix could be useful to law enforcement. another version could be useful to historians.. another version to developers.. etcSep 03 14:30
schestowitzEven Microsoft ceased to sell some shrink-wrapped s/w like Money.Sep 03 14:30
schestowitzI shall post later another new examples where Microsoft even abandoned the PC (Windows) for gaming,.Sep 03 14:31
josewhat's this got to do with ... distribution are details. .. improtant ones'Sep 03 14:31
schestowitzjose: some people in Denmark created a distro that's privacy-oriented.Sep 03 14:31
schestowitzThere's also tinfoilhat Linux. They even have an activ e IRC channel.Sep 03 14:32
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joseschestowitz, imagine the BN pages annotated further if necessary so that on a local version of the website right clicking on the mouse over a page brings up a 3dish rotation widget-ish thing with the faces of all the "characters" relevant to the page or the section where you clicked etc..Sep 03 14:51
schestowitzThat's fictional. There are related links in pages though.Sep 03 14:53
josedepending on the type of news, various charachatures would show.., eg, a beaming balmer, balmer with nose bitten by tux, ballmer fuming or blowing top, ballmer soobing, ballmer cowboy, etc.. to match the plotSep 03 14:53
josethe pages can be annotated and what i described generated.. eg, for a distroSep 03 14:54
josethis can be automated and the app that builds this and the eg kde integration can get shared among those building a distro and liking that effectSep 03 14:55
jose..among those building their own distros but sharing ideas and code and helpSep 03 14:55
josesound effects would be goodSep 03 14:55
schestowitzAre we talking about sites or distros? :-)Sep 03 14:55
schestowitzThat's too far-fetched.Sep 03 14:55
josea clone of the site on the distroSep 03 14:55
schestowitzWidgets of sorts that serve as RSS readers are a better go.Sep 03 14:56
joseonline you'd need javascript or something like that.. on a local distro, it could be more efficientSep 03 14:56
joseyou'd do it i think if the tools were there and it was a matter of some extra annotation and maybe filling out a config fileSep 03 14:56
schestowitzThis is wishful thinking. If there was a Groklaw CD, would you bother with it?Sep 03 14:56
josewhatever you like, though i was shooting for humor and fun to help sell your distroSep 03 14:56
josewhat do you mean "bother with it"?Sep 03 14:57
schestowitzDownload *and* use/distribute.Sep 03 14:57
josei posted a while back how to make this sort of stuff practical it would be best to have a very precise set of instructions for building the distros from a baseSep 03 14:57
schestowitzThe site of the site is not 700MB, which fits a CD-ROM.Sep 03 14:58
schestowitz*sizeSep 03 14:58
josethis way, you can download the "diff" script and have it generate the distro..Sep 03 14:58
josethink VMs, very fast processors, and many gigabytes of space a few years from nowSep 03 14:58
jose..there is work to be done.. i'd like people to collaborate.. it would be useful if those with established experience would joinSep 03 14:59
schestowitzThere are already Web-based distro buildersSep 03 15:00
schestowitzrBuilder for instance.Sep 03 15:00
benJImanSoon SUSE Studio.Sep 03 15:00
josewhat do you mean by web-based.. like nimblex?Sep 03 15:00
benJImanI think he means web-based distro-builders. Not web-based-distro builders.Sep 03 15:01
josenimblex would be the former.. the latter seems like a very specialized project so I doubted that was the intentionSep 03 15:03
schestowitzNmbleX just as many DEs on it.Sep 03 15:04
schestowitz*NimbleXSep 03 15:04
schestowitzMaybe you mean Ulteo?Sep 03 15:05
josealso, peer to peer  might be the way to go for distributing at least for maximum flexibility for those taht could not get huge bandwidth.. also someone mentioned the coral network (then again maybe google or others are giving away huge free/cheap bandwidth and space)Sep 03 15:05
josenimblex has a web system where you pick your packages, etc, and it builds the isoSep 03 15:06
josecustom distro making techniques and tools would go far for establishing a local linux service ecosystem and convince ms shops.. or put them on warning.. many businesses would love a distro for marketing purposes and with demand as such MS would have to watch their step and pc OEMs would start to seriously support linuxSep 03 15:07
josea distro can be very simple and precise and take up little space.. imagine opening up a VM or chaning OS (this might become fast and efficient in future if there is demand)..Sep 03 15:09
josechaning -> changingSep 03 15:09
joseusing developed tools and recipes.. to allow mary sue and jimbo to build a simple distro environments for when they want to indulge in their music rock starSep 03 15:10
schestowitzThat already exists, I think.Sep 03 15:11
schestowitzIt's better not to reinvent the wheel where there's possible overlap.Sep 03 15:11
josethe number of variations are huge.. i'm not sure i know what you meanSep 03 15:12
joseit's getting messy trying to post some of the things i'm thinking about.. picture worth thousand words thingSep 03 15:13
schestowitzCan  mary sue and jimbo know what they need in their distro and how to make it?Sep 03 15:14
josea website for shopping for them would have screecasts and full doc support to describe the models :)Sep 03 15:15
josereally there is a lot of business potential here, but i am after growing linux marketshare by peeking mary and jim's curiosity and then providing a simple process they can use..Sep 03 15:16
josefirst we need to design the styles let's saySep 03 15:16
josethen a gui to allow customizing itSep 03 15:16
josethis would be one waySep 03 15:16
schestowitzHow distant is this from getting the distro du jour and just fetching what they like from a repo?Sep 03 15:16
josebut now i am after geeks mainly. support a group of geeks who then spread out little by littleSep 03 15:17
schestowitzOne distro fits all, one repo customises for all.Sep 03 15:17
josefetching?Sep 03 15:17
josemost distros have limited opsSep 03 15:17
josethe idea is to build tools that allow styling easilySep 03 15:17
joseevolutionary not revolutionarySep 03 15:18
josebut i want to get people excited and working on this rather than ignoring itSep 03 15:18
josei want a support group for those with motivation and some skillSep 03 15:18
joselet ideas run wild and feed back into the hard core devs building utilities and thingsSep 03 15:19
joseintegrateSep 03 15:19
joseok, let's say you have a gimpix and it has krita installed...Sep 03 15:20
josebut krita does function as it should, rather when you click or set in motion something in this kritaSep 03 15:20
schestowitzhttp://www.neowin.net/news/main/07/11/25/ne... (Neowin Shift Linux 0.5 Final Released)Sep 03 15:21
josewhat you get is a little video/docs describing that functionality and how it is done with the gimp.Sep 03 15:21
josethis is sophisticatedSep 03 15:21
josebut gimp devs might be able and willing to pull it offSep 03 15:21
schestowitz"Shift Linux is a Linux project that was created by the Neowin community.  Based on Morphix Linux, Shift is Debian based live CD; therefore it has  access to all of the software and applications as other Debian distributions."Sep 03 15:21
schestowitz"Several versions of Shift Linux have been developed to produce for computers  with lighter or more robust hardware configurations. We have produced Shift  with Fluxbox as the predominant desktop manager for lower resource computers,  and Shift with Gnome and KDE desktop managers, for heartier machines."Sep 03 15:21
joseand the fruits of their labor would be shared and lead to clones with other appsSep 03 15:21
joseto customize, you many times have to effectively build new packages. but these packages may not work in almost any other distroSep 03 15:22
josewe do need more standards though.. so that more distinct packages can coexist.. eg, by being more precise about version and build numbers to allow segragation of config info, plugins, etcSep 03 15:23
josein an automated fashionSep 03 15:23
joseacross projects.. etcSep 03 15:23
josehaving app projects tackle distromaking is a very foss/linux friendly "waste of time" vs. porting to shiftyWindowsSep 03 15:26
joseshifty and opaque.. super opaque .. and shiftySep 03 15:26
joseschestowitz: getting back to BNix, you do much more with total control over a desktop than through a book or even an interactive webpage (not to mention that these two could be included, not to mention that a local version would allow more interesting effects or web effects to be done in real time)Sep 03 15:32
joseschestowitz.. don't mind me if you are busy, btwSep 03 15:33
schestowitzAccording to this < http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/10/l... >, LinuBasher might be de Icaza's mate.Sep 03 15:33
josewhich comment specificallySep 03 15:34
jose?Sep 03 15:34
trmanco"This just made me laugh.  Thanks to Glazblog for sharing!  Also worth noting that the JavaScript engine in the next version of Firefox will be FASTER than Google Chrome. :)"Sep 03 15:35
trmancohttp://feedproxy.google.com/~r/RobinsD...Sep 03 15:35
schestowitzResult #1 in http://www.google.com/search?num=50&h... : "LinuxHater's blog, I am a fan - Miguel de Icaza"Sep 03 15:35
trmancowhat?Sep 03 15:36
schestowitzjose: I'm never truly busy, just asleep, away or in this case cooking.Sep 03 15:36
schestowitzjose: the last comment in the page I linked to.Sep 03 15:37
schestowitztrmanco: see this one from moments ago: "My current worry is how is Google with its new Chrome browser trying to replace Microsoft?  I suppose even if Google is wildly successful beyond what seems likely now that FLOSS will be in better shape than now?  But what are the nightmare scenarios?"Sep 03 15:37
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/02/...Sep 03 15:37
trmancoschestowitz, thanksSep 03 15:38
schestowitzI'll start writing 4-5 BN posts now. It's fun when I do them in bursts.Sep 03 15:38
trmancofinallySep 03 15:40
trmancoa good comparison with the V8 and tracemonkeySep 03 15:40
trmancohttp://ejohn.org/files/js-suns...Sep 03 15:40
trmancotake that google chrome :)Sep 03 15:40
trmanco"We already see TraceMonkey (under development for about 2 months) performing better than V8 (under development for about 2 years)."Sep 03 15:41
schestowitzWhere's Chrome?Sep 03 15:41
trmancothe V8 is chrome javascript engineSep 03 15:41
schestowitzOh.Sep 03 15:42
trmancochrome's*Sep 03 15:42
schestowitzMaybe it spends CPU time phoning home to momma Google.Sep 03 15:42
schestowitzGoogle is in the business of spySep 03 15:43
trmancohttp://ejohn.org/blog/javascr...Sep 03 15:43
schestowitzGoogle is in the business of spying/profiling, Mozilla is not.Sep 03 15:43
trmancomaybeSep 03 15:43
trmancohere is another one -> http://andreasgal.com/2008/09/03/...Sep 03 15:44
trmancobut has less detailSep 03 15:44
schestowitzYou know which browser deserves the most support?Sep 03 15:47
schestowitzKonqueror.Sep 03 15:47
trmancowhy?Sep 03 15:48
trmancoKHTML engine?Sep 03 15:48
schestowitzMozilla is not developing Free software.Sep 03 15:48
josei'd like to get dillo running again to catch up someSep 03 15:49
schestowitzOther FOSS Web browsers seem to be lagging. One of the challenges are spoiled or deliberately stupid Web designers that only allow 'trusted' (known) browsers.Sep 03 15:49
kentmaschestowitz: it's laziness.  the fewer browsers which are "allowed", then the least testing needs to be done.Sep 03 15:50
schestowitzI posted an example about IEC yesterday.Sep 03 15:50
kentmajose: is Dillo still being developed?Sep 03 15:50
schestowitzThere should be laws against strong sniffing or a movement to pressure develops to stop it.Sep 03 15:50
schestowitzhttp://www.elections.org.za/Netscape.htmSep 03 15:51
josemore online content (eg, from us folks) that would require browser X for some features would help create a scenario were users would want/need to have multiple browsers or engines..Sep 03 15:51
josedillo is on vacation to a large degreeSep 03 15:51
kentmaschestowitz: governments work the other way, though.  Legal intercept has always been a key pillar of espionage.Sep 03 15:51
schestowitzWant to participate in the national elections? Go and buy some spyware (Windows).Sep 03 15:51
josethe main dev wants to get back to it but  you know how things are with $$$Sep 03 15:51
schestowitzkentma: the British gov. recently lied about standards. It overestimate adherence, so people complained.Sep 03 15:52
kentmaschestowitz: on what issue?Sep 03 15:52
kentmajose: indeed.  probably dillo will remain moribund.  It was never a massive project, although I rather liked it, and used it quite a bit on older PCs.Sep 03 15:53
joseit filled a nitch of light and graphicSep 03 15:53
kentmaquite!  a small niche, I guess.Sep 03 15:53
josebut many pages render subpar and it is missing javascript and some other thingsSep 03 15:53
joseit's good enough for various things.. i would like to help it along at some point.Sep 03 15:54
josethe mozilla javascript engine was always kind of heavy.. this new one might be useful for dilloSep 03 15:55
schestowitzkentma: I'd have to recheck.Sep 03 15:55
kentmaschestowitz:  do you know who subway steel is in cola?Sep 03 15:56
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/19...Sep 03 15:56
schestowitzkentma: I don't, why?Sep 03 15:57
schestowitzI realise that the "Bee" persona is intimidating advocates now.Sep 03 15:57
kentmaBee?Sep 03 15:58
schestowitzMaybe you have it kfedSep 03 15:59
kentmaah, he's just remained under my watermark.Sep 03 16:00
kentmaseems to be a fool, so far as I can see.Sep 03 16:00
schestowitzA harmful one nonetheless. I also notices some 'unmaskers'.Sep 03 16:04
kentmaschestowitz: you're right - he's a pretty nasty individual.  It looks like it might be another Gary Stewart nym to me, the vitriol is about right.Sep 03 16:12
trmancohttp://feeds.gawker.com/~r/gizmodo/fu...Sep 03 16:13
schestowitzI love the image!Sep 03 16:25
josethat posting and some of the comments are way offSep 03 16:30
josegoogle doesn't own, what they is happening is that you say you won't sue them if they put blurbs of your material in some database or something. it can get nasty, but it's different than owning .. maybe they meant pwndSep 03 16:31
josedon't mean to appear to excuse them, but many website terms of posting are likely just like thisSep 03 16:33
josefor google's business it is extra useful because they are indexing the webSep 03 16:33
josechrome is supposed to be foss right?Sep 03 16:34
trmancoyes something like thatSep 03 16:35
trmancoit's licensed under the bsd licenseSep 03 16:35
trmancohttp://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquire...Sep 03 16:36
schestowitztrmanco: it's a mixture.Sep 03 16:36
schestowitztrmanco: didn't you report on that the other day (ComputerWorld link)?Sep 03 16:37
trmancoI do not rememberSep 03 16:37
jose>> The report observes that, "By delivering superior performance while maintaining a nearly [two times] smaller memory and CPU [threads] footprint across the board, Firefox 3.01 proves once again that the open source community can often trump even the most well-funded commercial projects when it comes to delivering efficient, streamlined code."Sep 03 16:38
tessier__So, is MS bankrupt yet?Sep 03 16:39
tessier__And anyone using Chrome as their daily browser yet?Sep 03 16:40
joseThis brought to mind the link schestowitz gave to jeffe from novell where he praises the microsoft developers and the honor it is to work near themSep 03 16:40
josejeffe is not the name and i am drawing a blank..Sep 03 16:43
trmancoschestowitz, good news -> http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/OpenMal...Sep 03 16:52
schestowitztessier: have you followed recent posts while absent for your wedding?Sep 03 16:57
schestowitzMicrosoft's past seems hairy: debts, financial fraud, gigantic losses and questionable stock options that rely on different buckets.Sep 03 16:58
schestowitzI'm not expert in economics (my father and grandfather taught me some stuff), but it seems like classic rule-bending and life on the edge.Sep 03 16:59
schestowitztrmanco:  thanks for that. I was just about to write about it. I have another link now.Sep 03 17:00
schestowitzSutor posted this one last night: http://www.peterkrantz.com/2008/odf...Sep 03 17:00
trmancothanksSep 03 17:01
schestowitzBrazil also BTW.Sep 03 17:01
schestowitzGimme 10 minutes.Sep 03 17:01
trmancookSep 03 17:02
joseschestowitz, i don't know if you posted about this...Sep 03 17:03
josehttp://stealcode.blogspot.com/2008/07/ci...Sep 03 17:03
josewhat about contract terms with Microsoft ..Sep 03 17:03
josemade in a way so that the businesses don't lose linux customers..Sep 03 17:03
josebut these customers have to do things like change the browser id..Sep 03 17:04
joseleading to that popular <1% linux desktop usage figure based on certain website dataSep 03 17:04
josebesides the main text and the question, "WHY would you block customers that use Linux, especially when your site works fine with Linux?"Sep 03 17:07
josethe updates are very interestingSep 03 17:07
schestowitzI posted a link to it, jose.Sep 03 17:10
schestowitzI'm not sure what else can be said because I find it too depressing to rant about.Sep 03 17:10
josesorry.. but did want to mention the web marketing angleSep 03 17:10
josea letter writing campaign and some negative publicity could help.. remember the bios issue recentlySep 03 17:11
josei don't think most companies want headaches from ms dealsSep 03 17:11
schestowitzjose: that "1%" argument needs to be assassinated. it already /had/ been but all the little Mucnhkin Goebbels are repeating the Big Lie over and over again, so it's hard to keep up.Sep 03 17:11
joseissues like this with citibank help keep it aliveSep 03 17:12
josedon't want to depress you, btw.Sep 03 17:12
schestowitzjose: that's a good post because of the links at the bottom. I'll do a post about it.Sep 03 17:13
joseeye didn't have an i for thatSep 03 17:14
joseeye <-> iSep 03 17:14
josei confess, i made the mistake on purposeSep 03 17:15
josedepression has a cure . lolSep 03 17:15
schestowitzNo, I'm not depressed.Sep 03 17:15
schestowitzIn order to write about it, I needed to have 'meat' to the arument.Sep 03 17:16
schestowitz"Citibank suxx" doesn't cut it.Sep 03 17:16
schestowitzI had 4 refs from several days ago, but only now I have the MS deals to serve as circumstancial evidence.Sep 03 17:16
schestowitzI'll just finish this ODF post and then do one on Citib ank.Sep 03 17:17
joseone of the updates mentioned that only the linux (unsupported) users get the flashSep 03 17:17
josealso, they use "unsupported" solarisSep 03 17:17
josethat looks bad when you add extra code only for "unsupported" linuxSep 03 17:19
joseFrom the articlSep 03 17:19
joseThis next person went into detail about how Windows is the only OS that offers "real security".Sep 03 17:19
joseOf course they came back and said Citibank only supports "secure operating systems" and that windows was the only option.Sep 03 17:20
joseUpdate:Sep 03 17:20
joseHAKdragon On Digg.com verified my suspicion that Citibank is using Solaris on their servers with this link to Netcraft. It appears that both http://citicards.com and http://citibank.com are running on Solaris. So Citibank is using an operating system that is, in their opinion, not secure.Sep 03 17:20
joseend of quotingSep 03 17:20
schestowitz:-)Sep 03 17:21
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schestowitzI don't want to parrot their FUD though.Sep 03 17:22
joseit's also almost inexcusable to call linux insecureSep 03 17:22
schestowitzI'll find a way around it.Sep 03 17:22
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joseit's also possible the blogger is misrememberingSep 03 17:23
josenot sure if those bits are quoted in terms of services or somethingSep 03 17:23
joseanyway, the blogger is testimony i supposeSep 03 17:23
schestowitzOk, I start writing it.Sep 03 17:28
schestowitzThe "Citibank: You’re on Notice" post I saw some months ago... have it among my refs already.Sep 03 17:30
schestowitzBank of America fits nicely.Sep 03 17:30
josehttp://www.saudiembassy.net/2004...Sep 03 17:39
joseor actually http://www.google.com/search?q=Al...Sep 03 17:39
joseand i came to that from this http://www.billparish.com/ci...Sep 03 17:41
jose"It is often forgotten that crown prince Al-Waleed saved Citicorp from going under a decade ago."Sep 03 17:41
josesorry again if i am duplicatingSep 03 17:41
joseinfo you have coveredSep 03 17:41
schestowitzIsn't that the group of gates' mates?Sep 03 17:41
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schestowitzI mean, I think ti's them whom he approached for investments. The SCO infusion offer points back to them too, IIRC.Sep 03 17:42
joseyour BN link comes up near the top in that google searchSep 03 17:43
schestowitzJose, this is going to be a very long post.Sep 03 17:45
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schestowitzWTF??Sep 03 19:44
schestowitzThey are citing a known Microsoft shill: "But for all the hype, Michael Gartenberg, vice president of mobile strategy for Juptermedia, said Chrome is somewhat underwhelming for a first release."Sep 03 19:44
schestowitzhttp://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20...Sep 03 19:44
schestowitzhe's a former "Microsoft evangelist" on their payroll.Sep 03 19:44
benJImanhttp://blogs.msdn.com/crispincowan/a... haha.Sep 03 20:02
schestowitzThanks.Sep 03 20:05
trmancohttp://www.securitytracker.com/al...Sep 03 20:24
trmancoNovell and activeXSep 03 20:25
trmancohow interesting...Sep 03 20:25
schestowitzIs this the same vuln as the last one?Sep 03 20:28
trmancoI'm not really sureSep 03 20:30
trmancobut it is a little oldSep 03 20:30
schestowitzI reckon the timing of this < http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2008/082... > was no coincidence.Sep 03 20:35
schestowitz"As long as Novell refuses to rescind the agreement they are party to this blatant attempt at hijacking FOSS/Linux, and to their damnable lie about MS IP being in Linux. As long as they keep getting money from Microsoft I doubt they will rescind the agreement. Novell fanbois who refuse to see the plain truth about this agreement are either no friends of FOSS/GPL or, in their misguided loyalties, they refuse to see and keep their heSep 03 20:37
schestowitzads up their collective rears to avoid the truth."Sep 03 20:37
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_stor...Sep 03 20:37
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story... "Quoting the LinuxHaters blog is like quoting Didio or O'Hara as accurate sources. Both are paid MS sycophants and I have no doubt that the author of the Linuxhatersblog is too."Sep 03 20:39
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johnny_utahRoy, you there?Sep 03 21:12
schestowitzYes, I am. What's up?Sep 03 21:12
johnny_utahYou see this? http://www.videolan.org/patents.htmlSep 03 21:12
schestowitzThat's why we must fight softrware patents. Media compression is mathematics. It must not be owned by people.Sep 03 21:14
johnny_utahAgreed.  I use VLC all the time, what a shame.Sep 03 21:15
schestowitzEither way, it'll implode (the system that is). The US patent system already crumbles under the pressure as R&D moves abroad.Sep 03 21:16
tessier__schestowitz: Haskell is a purely functional programming language. The programs themselves are mathematical functions. I want to see a trial where someone implements a codec in Haskell and gets sued over it and presents the non-patentable mathematical forumulas aka source code.Sep 03 21:16
tessier__formulasSep 03 21:16
tessier__There is already a window manager in Haskell and various other things. It's a general purpose programming language.Sep 03 21:17
tessier__Someone even wrote a basic OS in it.Sep 03 21:17
schestowitzThey US economy could become China/India roadkill unless it stops this madness. It hurts the EU too... everywhere.Sep 03 21:17
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schestowitzI've just found lots more patent news (will probably have no time to post it because staying up until 3AM typing I just almost fall asleep and leave typos in tact). Given the 'quality' of the patents I see, there's no way of writing /any/ useful program for free, i.e. without collision in some patents. Heh. PgDn/Up.Sep 03 21:19
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ZiggyFishheySep 03 21:29
schestowitzHey, ZiggyFish, what's up?Sep 03 21:31
ZiggyFishwhen are you planning on doing the daily links?Sep 03 21:32
schestowitzAt the end of the day. I used to do it twice a day.Sep 03 21:32
schestowitzI see that Microsoft keeps burning money: http://www.internetnews.com/webco...Sep 03 21:33
ZiggyFishand I like the idea of open source books (luck would have it that I go to uni at the start of the year)Sep 03 21:33
schestowitzIt compensates itself by nushing after the Yahoo! failure.Sep 03 21:33
schestowitzZiggyFish: should I post the links twice a day like I used to? What do you think. It's equally easy/hard.Sep 03 21:34
ZiggyFishup to you, I'm use to reading the links when I wake up, and before I go to work.Sep 03 21:35
schestowitzAs for books, they no longer need to be printed (machines and material), so the idea of charging for them becomes outdated. RMS explains this pretty well. People at the lower bound can now beat the big boys using throwaways. CC, YouTube, FOSS, etc. All laws that forbid this are attempt to change the clock through corruption of law.Sep 03 21:36
schestowitzZiggyFish: the links pretty much cover everything I find useful, but excluded are the bits that I do full posts about.Sep 03 21:37
ZiggyFishHow did I know that article was about Microsoft acquiring a company.Sep 03 21:37
schestowitz[Grrrrrrr........ that SuSEGeek.com guys keeps shoving all his posts into every single Linux site... giving SUSE and Novell visibility that others deprive it of]Sep 03 21:38
ZiggyFishthe book thing. I use to use p2p communities to download books. But with this server I don't have toSep 03 21:38
schestowitz*"guy"..."fromSep 03 21:38
schestowitzWhat is a book anyway? When compressed, the 4000 posts from BN.com are just 10 megsSep 03 21:39
schestowitzThat's just 2 seconds over the wire.Sep 03 21:39
ZiggyFishyeah, exactly (also ways a lot less too)Sep 03 21:40
schestowitzBooks are a composition of knowledge that the author acquired elsewhere, so to claim ownership of it (I respect copyrights, but attribution has its place too), well... knowledge is a mashup of thoughts or axioms.Sep 03 21:41
schestowitzSee http://slated.org/the_right_to_own_knowledgeSep 03 21:41
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seller_liarhelloSep 03 22:55
seller_liarhey roySep 03 22:56
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seller_liarI find about m$ and globo, in portugueseSep 03 22:56
schestowitzHi.Sep 03 22:56
seller_liarcall trmanco for help youSep 03 22:56
schestowitzGlobo?!?Sep 03 22:56
schestowitzI remember now.Sep 03 22:56
seller_liarhttp://www.midiaindependent...Sep 03 22:57
seller_liarm$ was a partner from globoSep 03 22:57
wasabiomg i hurd this crazy story about niovell porting all theyre applacations to m$ is this tru?Sep 03 22:57
seller_liarfor a little timeSep 03 22:57
schestowitz"O sócio estrangeiro - a Microsoft - recusou aportar capital e perdeu espaço.Sep 03 22:57
schestowitz"Sep 03 22:57
seller_liaryesSep 03 22:57
seller_liarbut I believe ,Sep 03 22:58
seller_liarglobo indirectly mantains m$ contractsSep 03 22:58
schestowitzCan you find a press release where both are seen together?Sep 03 22:58
seller_liarthe tv show of globo (aka "telenovelas") supports a lot of time m$ productsSep 03 22:58
seller_liarno sorrySep 03 22:58
schestowitzhttp://findarticles.com/p/articl... ( Microsoft Buys Into Brazil With $126M Globo Stake. )Sep 03 22:58
schestowitzHaha. Billy bought himself another fan press.Sep 03 22:59
schestowitzHe has lots of it in Latin America too (I found many examples before).Sep 03 22:59
seller_liarbelieve me ,globo is a more powerful company in BrazilSep 03 22:59
seller_liareven portugal know thisSep 03 22:59
seller_liarit was born in brazil dictatorship and hates the actual governementSep 03 23:00
schestowitz"following a $1 billion investment in Comcast Corp. in 1997." This is important to me for other reasons. I've been showing the relationship between MS and Comcast, but didn't know about a $1,000,000,000 stake.Sep 03 23:00
seller_liarbut ,of couse ,now globo supports the actual governmentSep 03 23:00
seller_liarglobo hates Lula(the actual president) , some years ago , globo make a boycott against luis inacio and winSep 03 23:01
seller_liarlula supports GNU LinuxSep 03 23:02
schestowitzFollow the money.Sep 03 23:03
seller_liarbecause of this (m$ and net tecnologies) globo begin to crashSep 03 23:03
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cjyay!Sep 03 23:03
schestowitzI need you to show me where they do this.Sep 03 23:03
seller_liarand now globo depends from money governementSep 03 23:03
seller_liarwhat?Sep 03 23:03
schestowitzI mean, if you find examples or just articles (even in Protuguese) then it can be shown to Brazilian people what Globo does to them.Sep 03 23:03
schestowitzHi, cj.Sep 03 23:04
cjhi there, schestowitz!  for the record, I am close with a bunch of folks at Novell and I am on contract at MSSep 03 23:04
seller_liarAt moment , I find only that article aboveSep 03 23:05
cjalso, I'm one of the first 20 or so users of this network :)Sep 03 23:05
cj(freenode/openprojects/linpeople)Sep 03 23:05
seller_liarlinpeople?Sep 03 23:05
cjseller_liar: check archive.orgSep 03 23:05
tessier__cj: So you gonna dish up the scoop on those sleezeballs over at Novell? :)Sep 03 23:05
schestowitz:-)Sep 03 23:06
cjseller_liar: it was rob levin's first channel on the "linux internet support cooperative"Sep 03 23:06
seller_liarcj:okSep 03 23:06
cjtessier__: heh, none of them are sleezeballs afaict.  they're on the level.Sep 03 23:06
schestowitzWhat contract at Microsoft?Sep 03 23:07
cjschestowitz: testing a feature in the next release of forefrontSep 03 23:08
cjschestowitz: implementation of the GAPA stuff documented here: http://research.microsoft.com/r...Sep 03 23:11
schestowitzWhich company for?Sep 03 23:11
cjschestowitz: saxon & taylorSep 03 23:12
schestowitzGot homepage? http://www.google.com/search?hl=e...Sep 03 23:12
seller_liarschestowitz: sorry , I don t have any real proof ,but i believe this contracts existsSep 03 23:12
cjhttps://www.sakson.com/Sep 03 23:13
seller_liarschestowitz: oops, a mistake ,forget about itSep 03 23:13
cjsorry, sakson :)Sep 03 23:13
*seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 03 23:14
schestowitz:)Sep 03 23:15
schestowitzAre you in contract with Microsoft?Sep 03 23:16
cjas for miguel's motives, I think he's really quite interested in helping the f/oss folks out.  every time I've spoken with him, he has come across as a well-meaning individual.Sep 03 23:16
cjschestowitz: my contract is with S&T.  They have a direct relationship with MSFTSep 03 23:16
schestowitzYes, I know. A friend of him told me (mutual friend)Sep 03 23:16
schestowitzBut he's tied to more than just F/OSS.Sep 03 23:16
cjHe and RMS have a long history together.  They both mean well, but see the problem from a different perspective.  Richard is more ideological.  Miguel is more pragmatic.Sep 03 23:17
schestowitzI see it differently.Sep 03 23:18
cjI can't say that I agree with either of them fully, but their end goal is positive and not self-serving.Sep 03 23:18
schestowitzPeople like Gates really believe and convince themselves that they do good. But they do fraud.Sep 03 23:18
schestowitzLikewise, although it's  a bad analogy, Miguel looks to elev ate a company like Novell, please his mates from Microsoft (which he cannot realise is quite the criminal entity) and F/OSS is just somewhere among his priorities.Sep 03 23:19
cjschestowitz: nothing is black and white.  he heads the largest do-gooder institute ever seen in the world.  he also ran a company that has been convicted of antitrust... many times.Sep 03 23:19
cj(I was referring to gates)Sep 03 23:19
schestowitzGates Foundation is not a do-gooder.Sep 03 23:20
cjoh?Sep 03 23:20
schestowitzThe charity is a 'side effect' that's embellished via lots of grassroots/astroturfSep 03 23:20
schestowitzYou can see if as it happens in big magazine he owns.Sep 03 23:20
cjthey've invested heavily in my daughters' hospital for one...Sep 03 23:20
schestowitzThe Gates FOundation is a vehicle for him (and Warren) to escape tax and get some more benefit and a feelgood sensation.Sep 03 23:21
schestowitzcj: some thieves give some of the loot away.Sep 03 23:21
schestowitzThe classic robber baron is one that's also glorified.Sep 03 23:21
schestowitzI ask you kindly to watch the following video: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/0...Sep 03 23:22
schestowitz(It's embedded in the page)Sep 03 23:22
cjI'll take a look when I get home.  thanks.Sep 03 23:23
schestowitzIt's a lot of work to undo damage of brainwash. Such as the glorification of the Novell/Microsoft deal, where journalists totally neglect the view of programmer who actually built the system.Sep 03 23:24
cjschestowitz: what is a way to improve the situation?  how can either or both of the companies be improved so that you don't see it as such a catastrophe?Sep 03 23:24
schestowitzBTW, Oracle seems to be a big fraud as well (just been in the news)Sep 03 23:25
cjheh, I thought everybody knew about Larry...Sep 03 23:25
schestowitzSecurities fraud... Ellison shredded E-mails that serve as evidence; as did Intel.Sep 03 23:25
schestowitzLarry is crazy. I knew he was a snake when I read about him breaking the law with his fancy yacht/plane fetish. He even joked about breaking the law in a video interview I watched.Sep 03 23:26
schestowitzThere's that book about 'God' and 'Ellison'. What's the difference between God and Ellison? God doesn't think he's Ellison. To Larry, it's all about being richer and bigger than Gates. He too 'donates' (invests) in hospitals.Sep 03 23:27
cjso what's a proactive solution?Sep 03 23:31
cjthere needs to be a relationship between proprietary and free software vendors.  how should that relationship be carried out, optimally?Sep 03 23:32
schestowitzWell, ego elation in big companies is an issue. They have no boundaries, so they 'shape' their reports and ruthlessly destroy the small competitors. The work RMS does always revolves around society, not business. He raises this point constantly because people are mistakenly educated so as to believe good business make a good society (there's no such relationship).Sep 03 23:33
cjis it best to have standards bodies (w3c, ieee, etc) take that roll?  should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software?Sep 03 23:33
cjs/roll/role/Sep 03 23:33
tessier__schestowitz: How did Ellison break the law with his yacht/plane fetish?Sep 03 23:33
wasabiAnd who would enforce said bans? Would we put people in prison? :)Sep 03 23:34
schestowitzRMS would probably say based on his experience that all business needs to evolve towards a model of sharing, _in due time_. A digital world can take advantage of this and blow the gap between poverty and affluence.Sep 03 23:34
schestowitztessier: he flew under a bridge.Sep 03 23:34
cjoh, wassabi is another infiltrat0r, fyi :)Sep 03 23:34
schestowitzIt's against aviation policies.Sep 03 23:34
schestowitzBans?Sep 03 23:35
cjschestowitz: should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software?Sep 03 23:37
schestowitzIn what context and why?Sep 03 23:40
cjschestowitz: have you been reading what I wrote above?Sep 03 23:40
schestowitzYes, I have.Sep 03 23:41
cjschestowitz: I'm asking what novell and microsoft are doing wrong, and what can be done to improve the process so that all participants are happy.Sep 03 23:41
schestowitzAbout standards.Sep 03 23:41
cjthey are complying with the GPL, BSD and MIT/X11 licenses... this doesn't seem to be enough?Sep 03 23:42
cjoh, LGPL as wellSep 03 23:42
cjand ArtisticSep 03 23:42
schestowitzI think the answer is obvious. It didn't cost Microsoft a dime to participate in the ISO standards for document and the W3C's work.Sep 03 23:42
cjand loads of others...Sep 03 23:42
cjschestowitz: oh!?Sep 03 23:42
schestowitzInstead they run away form standards and demand cash for anti-standards.Sep 03 23:42
cjschestowitz: have you seen what the cost is to be a member of the w3c?  for a company Microsoft's size, it's huge.Sep 03 23:42
cjmore than "a dime"Sep 03 23:43
schestowitzThat's beside the point.Sep 03 23:43
schestowitzIf they don't take the lead, they can follow and participate at some level. The W3C doesn't make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits.Sep 03 23:43
schestowitzNot even GIFSep 03 23:43
cjschestowitz: I think you're misinformed.  do you know what ECMA-335 is, for instance?Sep 03 23:44
schestowitzAs for Microsoft, it's not trying to contaminate W3C (Wilson) with DRM and JS ruin.Sep 03 23:44
schestowitzI don't know the code.Sep 03 23:44
cjschestowitz: there are tons of patents on this technology, for instance:Sep 03 23:45
cjhttp://www.w3.org/TR/xml/Sep 03 23:45
cjschestowitz: I agree that the relationship between Novell and Microsoft is sub-optimal, but ranting about things which are inaccurate rather than offering proactive steps helps noone.Sep 03 23:47
schestowitz /whose/ patents?Sep 03 23:47
schestowitzSee the following to meet the point that's arrived here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/27/...Sep 03 23:48
cjschestowitz: *shrug*  lots of folks.  mostly at MS, I assume.Sep 03 23:48
cjhttp://usasearch.gov/sear...Sep 03 23:49
schestowitzI already know that they have such patents. That's not news to anyone.Sep 03 23:51
schestowitzWho again are you?Sep 03 23:51
cjThe W3C doesn't make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits.Sep 03 23:51
cjwhy did you say that if you already know that they have such patents?Sep 03 23:52
cjdid you not know that the W3C publishes TRs about XML?Sep 03 23:52
schestowitzThe W3C acts as a form of patent pool.Sep 03 23:53
schestowitzMuch like LiMo.Sep 03 23:53
cjhttp://web.archive.org/web/19961109144913... <- I'm 'Da_Man' thereSep 03 23:53
cjhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_LevinSep 03 23:54
cjI guess that makes me a founding member of freenodeSep 03 23:54

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