IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 18th, 2009 - Part 3

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2009-03-19 08:58:26 UTC
Modified: 2009-03-19 08:58:26 UTC

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

_Hicham_	I didn't know that there is a lot of Ubuntu haters	Mar 18 21:53
trmanco	_Hicham_, they had to grab market share somehow	Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz	MinceR: Apple doesn't do HTML	Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz	KDE did (KHTML)	Mar 18 21:53
MinceR	so how did they campaign against ogg theora in html5?	Mar 18 21:53
_Hicham_	trmanco : but since FF2, the plugin don't work	Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz	Apple does flashy widgets and ihtml	Mar 18 21:53
trmanco	until they finally stabilized with there own technologies	Mar 18 21:53
schestowitz	Oh! and they have patents there inside the W3cc...	Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz	But recent controversy btw	Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz	They poison the standard with landmines	Mar 18 21:54
_Hicham_	MinceR : ogg theora is supported natively in FF3.1	Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz	Like Rambus	Mar 18 21:54
trmanco	_Hicham_, what plugin?	Mar 18 21:54
MinceR	_Hicham_: doesn't make it a w3c standard though	Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz	It should have been that	Mar 18 21:54
schestowitz	Nokalle don't count	Mar 18 21:55
_Hicham_	trmanco : Mozilla ActiveX plugin	Mar 18 21:55
trmanco	ha that crap	Mar 18 21:55
schestowitz	Poetice justice, in code	Mar 18 21:55
schestowitz	*Poetic	Mar 18 21:55
trmanco	good thing it doesn't work, was it official anyway?	Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz	Mozilla detoxicated itself from Windows Snyder	Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz	MS employee	Mar 18 21:56
MinceR	except for the "justice" part	Mar 18 21:56
trmanco	code is poetry	Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz	No longer will Mozilla people 'praise' Microsoft... e.g. for security	Mar 18 21:56
trmanco	but it really depends on who writes this type of "poetry"	Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz	*Window, not Windows (Freudian slip)	Mar 18 21:56
schestowitz	Linus Torvalds: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code."	Mar 18 21:57
trmanco	hehe, computer scientist quotes :-P	Mar 18 21:57
schestowitz	Who is Alexander Larsson? http://blogs.gnome.org/alex...	Mar 18 21:58
trmanco	I wonder what it takes to be one	Mar 18 21:58
schestowitz	Linux File Systems: Ext4. Btrfs. Do we understand what we need? < http://blog.hydrasystemsllc.com/2009/03/17... >	Mar 18 21:58
trmanco	this might be the future jaunty background -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incomi...	Mar 18 22:00
MinceR	but what will karmic look like?	Mar 18 22:06
MinceR	they said it won't be brown	Mar 18 22:06
MinceR	(finally)	Mar 18 22:06
schestowitz	trmanco: COLA's been quiet for the past 2 days. I'll post some news	Mar 18 22:07
schestowitz	MinceR: yes, maybe not by default. WHo knows...	Mar 18 22:07
Balrog__	about the Mozilla ActiveX plugin:	Mar 18 22:08
Balrog__	<< This plug-in is not part of the Mozilla distribution and even if it were it would be disabled by default. It is extremely, hell-freezing-overly, unlikely that Mozilla is ever going to support ActiveX by default. This plug-in is designed for custom, legacy and intranet solutions and nothing else.	Mar 18 22:08
MinceR	they could call the new theme Inhuman ;)	Mar 18 22:08
schestowitz	Brown is part of the Ubuntu identity/brand. Else it's JAG (Just another GNOME)	Mar 18 22:08
MinceR	perhaps it's time to switch ubuntu with kubuntu and rename ubuntu to gubuntu and kubuntu to ubuntu? :>	Mar 18 22:08
schestowitz	MinceR: should call it "OhMan!"	Mar 18 22:09
MinceR	or Superhuman	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	That'd be MS style	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	Ultimate	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	Supra Ultra..	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	"Professional"	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	Implicitly: Apple is not professiona	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	Ubuntu is not "ultimate"	Mar 18 22:09
MinceR	we know that	Mar 18 22:09
MinceR	neither is m$, though	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	as in "not people-ready"	Mar 18 22:09
schestowitz	MinceR: not true	Mar 18 22:09
MinceR	Ready for the Not-People?	Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz	Windows is very business read... for crackers	Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz	"Letsa get down to bizniz!!"	Mar 18 22:10
MinceR	windows is professional in the way a whore is.	Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz	It's part of the MS ecosystem	Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz	Wait until crackers attack Linux	Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz	To keep Windows hosts out there for pickings	Mar 18 22:10
schestowitz	Microsoft: the Amsterdamn[sic] of OSes	Mar 18 22:11
schestowitz	(not with extra Cr4ack (not the drug"	Mar 18 22:12
schestowitz	^typos.	Mar 18 22:12
_Hicham_	I read an anecdote in which they gathered a bunch of talented crackers to do a comparison	Mar 18 22:16
_Hicham_	how much will a Windows system resist	Mar 18 22:17
MinceR	that's a pretty degrading thing to say of Amsterdam.	Mar 18 22:17
_Hicham_	and how much a Linux system will	Mar 18 22:17
MinceR	there was an event with windows vs linux vs macos	Mar 18 22:17
_Hicham_	well, a freshly installed Windows can't resist a second	Mar 18 22:17
MinceR	windows was broken first, macos second, linux never	Mar 18 22:17
_Hicham_	while Linux (Debian) has taken two month to be broken in	Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_	and guess what ?	Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_	Windows was equipped with a firewall	Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_	while Debian was not	Mar 18 22:18
_Hicham_	i am looking for that story	Mar 18 22:18
schestowitz	MinceR: Mac first	Mar 18 22:21
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Mar 18 22:21
schestowitz	Ubuntu/Mac/Windows security challenge last year	Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz	SAFARI~1.EXE did it	Mar 18 22:22
MinceR	oh.	Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz	on the Mac	Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz	[no EXE.. just joking]	Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz	.Mac	Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz	iSaf	Mar 18 22:22
MinceR	'look how elite we are, we can rip KHTML off and say it's ours'	Mar 18 22:22
schestowitz	And add GUI	Mar 18 22:23
schestowitz	With HCI stuff	Mar 18 22:23
*PetoKraus (n=pk@cpc1-broo6-0-0-cust1009.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 18 22:23
MinceR	oh, yes, forgot the 'add a retarded, unusable gui' part	Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz	I told you apple like foss	Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz	Free code	Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz	Apple likes freedom (of cost)	Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz	There are one-man project that do the same	Mar 18 22:24
schestowitz	slap in some gecko, use gtk/qt/motif/whataveer	Mar 18 22:25
schestowitz	Chrome too	Mar 18 22:25
schestowitz	Uses KHTML	Mar 18 22:25
schestowitz	The ripped off version	Mar 18 22:25
MinceR	yes, they like it in the same way m$ does	Mar 18 22:25
MinceR	and they use it in the same way too	Mar 18 22:25
Balrog__	well, WebKit is foss ... not so with MS products	Mar 18 22:26
MinceR	osx isn't foss though	Mar 18 22:26
MinceR	and neither is safari	Mar 18 22:26
Balrog__	no (os x) it isn't and it probably won't be anytime soon.	Mar 18 22:26
schestowitz	MinceR: Apple is open (about it)	Mar 18 22:27
MinceR	screwing around the API of the engine does no contribution make	Mar 18 22:27
schestowitz	Microsoft uses BSD and keeps quiet	Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__	they are working on a GTK ui for WebKit	Mar 18 22:27
MinceR	apple are?	Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__	the webkit people	Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__	not sure if it's apple	Mar 18 22:27
MinceR	so it's probably not apple	Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__	also, the kernel is foss (if you consider APSL to be foss)	Mar 18 22:27
MinceR	so it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand	Mar 18 22:27
Balrog__	I'd assume Apple employees are helping	Mar 18 22:28
MinceR	i'd assume apple employees are trying to do more damage, just like they've ever done	Mar 18 22:28
MinceR	steal the code, lock it down, add DRM, sell it for tons of $$$ and be smug about how clever you are	Mar 18 22:28
Balrog__	MinceR: why do you blast Apple so much and not MS or the other more damaging ones?	Mar 18 22:28
_Hicham_	Apple employees didn't help even KDE developers	Mar 18 22:28
MinceR	Balrog__: oh, i do blast m$ too	Mar 18 22:29
_Hicham_	the creators of KHTML	Mar 18 22:29
Balrog__	_Hicham_: that did get set straight after a while	Mar 18 22:29
MinceR	Balrog__: it's just that apple cultists are so blinded by the RDF they don't notice when apple is doing the exact same things m$ is	Mar 18 22:29
Balrog__	MinceR: this whole 'rdf' thing is overblown	Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__	yes, there are some that are blinded	Mar 18 22:30
MinceR	that's what i'd expect an apple fanboy to say	Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__	but a large majority (of technical people) aren't	Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__	go to a rumor site and look at the forums	Mar 18 22:30
Balrog__	there are _a lot_ of complaints	Mar 18 22:30
MinceR	and yet when they talk to a non-cultist, all we hear is "it just works" and it's so great and we're so stupid because we don't use apple	Mar 18 22:31
Balrog__	MinceR: hackintosh will never 'just work'	Mar 18 22:31
MinceR	and they keep telling me their jesusPhone is the second coming	Mar 18 22:31
MinceR	even if i tell them a couple of fundamental ways it fails	Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__	who are these people?	Mar 18 22:32
MinceR	apple fanboys	Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__	MinceR: 'fundamental' ways?	Mar 18 22:32
MinceR	they're everywhere	Mar 18 22:32
MinceR	fundamental things one would expect from a smartphone?	Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__	no keyboard? there are problems with keyboards.	Mar 18 22:32
MinceR	you know, the kind of phone you can get for a quarter of the price of a jesusPhone?	Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__	multitasking? battery life <<<	Mar 18 22:32
Balrog__	MinceR: I haven't seen a similar phone for $50	Mar 18 22:33
Balrog__	USD	Mar 18 22:33
Balrog__	the G1 is more expensive, and doesn't even have the 8GB flash	Mar 18 22:33
MinceR	that reminds me of a story when apple cut a complete, fully developed feature from a sw they released because jobs thought it would confuse some users	Mar 18 22:33
MinceR	see, that kind of contempt is what makes me really hate apple	Mar 18 22:33
Balrog__	MinceR: how is that 'contempt'?	Mar 18 22:34
MinceR	they practically tell their users "you're idiots and you'll buy any crap from us"	Mar 18 22:34
MinceR	and they do	Mar 18 22:34
Balrog__	MinceR: what about featuritis? I don't think they want that in their products	Mar 18 22:34
MinceR	windows might treat the user like a complete idiot, but it isn't in the same league apple products are in	Mar 18 22:34
Balrog__	(many Linux apps have it, many many more Windows apps do)	Mar 18 22:34
MinceR	when they don't tell you it's 65536 colors because 'you don't need to know'	Mar 18 22:34
Balrog__	Isn't 'thousands' good enough? I mean you can go look it up	Mar 18 22:35
MinceR	ah, the myth of the feature set that's just enough	Mar 18 22:35
MinceR	i prefer to be told what it is	Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__	heard of crappy japanese phones?	Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__	(with too many features)	Mar 18 22:35
MinceR	there's no such thing as "too many features"	Mar 18 22:35
Balrog__	yes there is	Mar 18 22:35
MinceR	do you honestly expect to use every single feature of everything you buy?	Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__	if they don't work properly or are overly complicated, it's too many	Mar 18 22:36
MinceR	do you honestly expect everyone else's needs to match yours exactly?	Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__	Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented features	Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__	MinceR: not my point	Mar 18 22:36
MinceR	do you honestly expect your own needs to be constant?	Mar 18 22:36
MinceR	apple certainly does	Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__	<<Fewer working features is better than many poorly implemented features	Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__	not MY needs	Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__	working and I mean working well	Mar 18 22:36
MinceR	so your needs are unimportant?	Mar 18 22:36
Balrog__	my needs are important, but if the features that are supposed to meet my needs don't work half the time (or are overly complicated) then they're useless	Mar 18 22:37
MinceR	that's an entirely different issue from "too many features"	Mar 18 22:37
MinceR	it's called bad quality	Mar 18 22:37
Balrog__	one thing Apple is doing is making sure all features have high quality before shipping	Mar 18 22:38
MinceR	one thing apple is failing at, i see	Mar 18 22:38
Balrog__	MinceR: explain how they're failing	Mar 18 22:38
Balrog__	at making sure /included/ features work well	Mar 18 22:39
MinceR	or do you consider bricking a mac on an os update "high quality"?	Mar 18 22:39
Balrog__	which update bricked macs?	Mar 18 22:39
Balrog__	??	Mar 18 22:40
MinceR	http://tech.slashdot.org/article...	Mar 18 22:40
MinceR	this one	Mar 18 22:40
Balrog__	If you're talking about the iphone, the community figured out how to unbrick them	Mar 18 22:40
Balrog__	MinceR: that has happened to me with Windows AND Linux	Mar 18 22:41
MinceR	another feature that works flawlessly: http://go2xserve.com/	Mar 18 22:41
Balrog__	so far not with mac	Mar 18 22:41
MinceR	wow, the community figured out, that's great!	Mar 18 22:41
MinceR	is that what passes for "just works" around your people?	Mar 18 22:41
Balrog__	the community did the jailbreak / unlock in the first place	Mar 18 22:41
MinceR	see, that's the RDF everyone else is talking about	Mar 18 22:41
MinceR	yes, because they had to	Mar 18 22:41
MinceR	because it's a locked down piece of shit	Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__	therefore they did the unbricking	Mar 18 22:42
MinceR	everything from apple is a locked down piece of shit	Mar 18 22:42
MinceR	and when i mention that, the fanboy says "but you can jailbreak it!"	Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__	there were some unlocks that did nasty things to the baseband back then	Mar 18 22:42
MinceR	they don't care about warranty	Mar 18 22:42
MinceR	or if it breaks something else	Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__	so I wouldn't be surprised if updating such an unlocked device would break the baseband	Mar 18 22:42
MinceR	in the mind of the apple fanboy, if it has an apple logo in it, it's perfect and it just works	Mar 18 22:42
schestowitz	Mac have been bricked more than once	Mar 18 22:42
schestowitz	I saw incidents in 2005	Mar 18 22:42
Balrog__	MinceR: what other than the baseband could be bricked?	Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz	CLI-only on Mac boot	Mar 18 22:43
MinceR	Balrog__: do i care what could be bricked in that overpriced paperweight?	Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__	schestowitz: there wer some problems with the imac G3 back in 2000 or so	Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz	But "mac rumours" sites won't talk about *that&	Mar 18 22:43
MinceR	if it's bricked, it's bricked.	Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__	There's rom recovery mode	Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 18 22:43
schestowitz	Recovery CDs	Mar 18 22:43
Balrog__	aka DFU mode (in ipod/iphone)	Mar 18 22:44
schestowitz	Like global rest in Palm IS	Mar 18 22:44
schestowitz	*OS	Mar 18 22:44
schestowitz	Hard reset	Mar 18 22:44
MinceR	and if you'll follow the link, you'll see that it's about desktop macs, not the jesusPhone.	Mar 18 22:44
Balrog__	<< Device Failsafe Utility	Mar 18 22:44
MinceR	btw i have a palm that bricked itself	Mar 18 22:44
Balrog__	Yes, resetting the PMU is considered standard procedure for dealing with problems	Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__	(on the Mac)	Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__	if it's hardware	Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__	explain about the Palm. I have one but it's unstable	Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__	many times more unstable than an iphone/ipod touch	Mar 18 22:45
MinceR	one month after the warranty expired it decided it won't boot anymore	Mar 18 22:45
MinceR	it's frozen at the boot screen, flashing a bar at the top of the screen	Mar 18 22:45
MinceR	hard reset doesn't help	Mar 18 22:45
Balrog__	:(	Mar 18 22:46
MinceR	oh, and it took my data with itself, of course	Mar 18 22:46
Balrog__	that's nasty.	Mar 18 22:46
Balrog__	About the iphone .... even if it's bricked, only the cell / wifi stuff stops working. The rest is still ok	Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__	Basically the baseband is wrecked.	Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__	(this is only the 1st-gen)	Mar 18 22:47
MinceR	does it boot that way?	Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__	No, it boots the main CPU.	Mar 18 22:47
Balrog__	The CPU talks to the baseband using AT commands	Mar 18 22:48
MinceR	and the os is ok with the baseband not responding?	Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__	(think modems)	Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__	yes.	Mar 18 22:48
MinceR	btw the main cpu part could be bricked too if the memory it boots from can be altered	Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__	but at the lowest level, it boots from ROM	Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__	and in that ROM, there's recovery mode	Mar 18 22:48
Balrog__	that's why Apple couldn't patch the jailbreak	Mar 18 22:49
MinceR	and where does it take the data to recover?	Mar 18 22:49
Balrog__	via USB	Mar 18 22:49
MinceR	ic	Mar 18 22:49
Balrog__	<< Unlike the main s5l8900 CPU, the S-Gold can actually be bricked	Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__	http://wikee.iphwn.org/sgold_bootrom:brick	Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__	remember this is the baseband	Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__	(which controls all radio comm)	Mar 18 22:50
MinceR	so you'd end up with a lame pda	Mar 18 22:50
Balrog__	when bricked, "Your cellphone and Edge and WiFi can be lost forever."	Mar 18 22:51
MinceR	instead of the lame phone you begin with	Mar 18 22:51
MinceR	very comforting	Mar 18 22:51
Balrog__	yes, a lame PDA, without wifi or bluetooth	Mar 18 22:51
MinceR	remember, this is a danger you take just to be able to install apps you want	Mar 18 22:51
MinceR	"just works" indeed.	Mar 18 22:51
Balrog__	now the 3G is very different....its baseband uses many levels of sigchecking and verification	Mar 18 22:51
Balrog__	the unlock for it is temporary ... it runs as a daemon that gets loaded each time the device is booted	Mar 18 22:52
MinceR	just the thing i'm dreaming of running on a mobile device	Mar 18 22:52
MinceR	it doesn't drain the battery does it? :>	Mar 18 22:52
Balrog__	no, because once it runs it doesn't have to keep running	Mar 18 22:53
MinceR	doesn't sound like a daemon to me	Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__	once the BB is running 'unlocked' code, you're ok	Mar 18 22:53
MinceR	though somehow my qtek 9100 uses advanced technology that makes such things unnecessary	Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__	the daemon part makes sure it runs again if you go into airplane mode and back out	Mar 18 22:53
MinceR	it wasn't locked to any provider when i bought it	Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__	talk to AT&T or the providers :/	Mar 18 22:53
MinceR	i wonder when apple will gain access to such wonderful technology!	Mar 18 22:53
Balrog__	there ARE iphones is Europe and Asia that have unlocked iPhones	Mar 18 22:54
MinceR	no, talk to steve jobs	Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__	be prepared to pay though	Mar 18 22:54
MinceR	ask him why he's so focused on screwing his own customers	Mar 18 22:54
MinceR	via lockdown and DRM	Mar 18 22:54
MinceR	and ask yourself why you still bend over and smile while you get this treatment	Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__	MinceR: another problem: the radio in the iphone follows worldwide 3G standards.	Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__	T-Mobile chose not to follow them	Mar 18 22:54
Balrog__	therefore, iphone + T-mobile in US == no-3G	Mar 18 22:54
MinceR	well, t-mobile (t-* in general) is all shades of crap here too	Mar 18 22:55
Balrog__	so what choice do you have? T-mobile and ATT	Mar 18 22:55
Balrog__	(with an unlocked device)	Mar 18 22:56
MinceR	they invented "unlimited internet access that has a limit" here in hungary	Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__	at least in the US it's like that	Mar 18 22:56
MinceR	here we have t-mobile, pannon (telenor) and vodafone	Mar 18 22:56
MinceR	i'm using pannon	Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__	source code to iphone 3g unlock: http://xs1.iphwn.org/releases/ye...	Mar 18 22:56
MinceR	i started with vodafone but i got tired of their crap service and didn't want to pay for overpriced gprs	Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__	MinceR: here we also have Verizon and Sprint	Mar 18 22:56
Balrog__	but those are CDMA services	Mar 18 22:57
Balrog__	no GSM	Mar 18 22:57
MinceR	and t-mobile was quite obviously overpriced to start with	Mar 18 22:57
Balrog__	here they're all overpriced	Mar 18 22:57
MinceR	they're probably all overpriced	Mar 18 22:57
MinceR	but t-mobile beats the others at that game here	Mar 18 22:57
PeterFA	Cell phone service...	Mar 18 22:57
PeterFA	Ah, the telecoms.	Mar 18 22:57
PeterFA	If I ever need a bona fide necessary evil, telecom is it.	Mar 18 22:58
MinceR	making a deal with a telco shows just how much apple cares about their customers	Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__	no, it shows how broken the law in the US is	Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__	everyone does it in the US	Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__	not only Apple	Mar 18 22:58
Balrog__	the RAZR was like that ... with Verizon I beliece	Mar 18 22:59
MinceR	apple did it worldwide	Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__	s/c/v	Mar 18 22:59
MinceR	iirc until they got slapped on the wrist by authorities in europe	Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__	MinceR: also what about (a) visual voicemail and (b) subsidies?	Mar 18 22:59
MinceR	i don't know what "visual voicemail" is supposed to be	Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__	in Europe there were various problems	Mar 18 22:59
MinceR	as for subsidies, the telco can keep their damn money, if i'm buying a phone i'm going to own it	Mar 18 22:59
Balrog__	basically you see a list of your voicemail messages and you can click on one to listen to it	Mar 18 23:00
Balrog__	Then do you wish to pay $599?	Mar 18 23:00
MinceR	none of the 3 phones i've bought so far were locked to a provider	Mar 18 23:00
MinceR	i pay as much as it costs	Mar 18 23:00
MinceR	if it's subsidized, you still pay the cost	Mar 18 23:00
MinceR	but you also get screwed in the process	Mar 18 23:00
Balrog__	no, you get locked in for 2 years	Mar 18 23:00
Balrog__	which may equal screwed, depending on the situation	Mar 18 23:01
MinceR	i don't use voicemail -- if they want to send me a message, there's a perfectly functional SMS for that	Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__	SMS is a ripoff	Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__	$1500 per megabyte	Mar 18 23:01
MinceR	voicemail is a ripoff too	Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__	at least here	Mar 18 23:01
MinceR	i need to pay to listen to it	Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__	voicemail is regular rates	Mar 18 23:01
MinceR	i can receive text messages free of charge	Mar 18 23:01
Balrog__	MinceR: Not true in the USA.	Mar 18 23:02
trmanco	meh	Mar 18 23:02
MinceR	well, the usa sucks	Mar 18 23:02
trmanco	Tuz?	Mar 18 23:02
trmanco	lol	Mar 18 23:02
Balrog__	texts are 10-25 cents both ways	Mar 18 23:02
Balrog__	(each way, actually)	Mar 18 23:02
MinceR	also, voicemail takes more time to use because it's speech	Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__	true, though with visual voicemail you can delete a message you don't want to listen to	Mar 18 23:03
MinceR	(even if it isn't the horrible wait-fest an answering machine playback is)	Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__	I prefer texts, but then again, many people have landlines here also	Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__	which means NO SMS	Mar 18 23:03
Balrog__	(from a landline)	Mar 18 23:03
MinceR	they could get ISDN, though :>	Mar 18 23:04
Balrog__	do you know how EXPENSIVE ISDN is????	Mar 18 23:04
MinceR	i do	Mar 18 23:04
Balrog__	more than I want to think of paying	Mar 18 23:04
Balrog__	:[	Mar 18 23:04
MinceR	(though i wonder how they still justify it)	Mar 18 23:04
MinceR	(not the 30-line version, obviously)	Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__	even the 1-line version costs too much	Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__	regular basic phone is $15 per month here	Mar 18 23:05
MinceR	btw you can send text messages from the internet too	Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__	yes, not everyone has that or knows how to do it	Mar 18 23:05
MinceR	if you use a wap push test page, it can even be free :>	Mar 18 23:05
Balrog__	via AIM it's free, but doesn't work to my phone	Mar 18 23:06
Balrog__	via email it works	Mar 18 23:06
MinceR	:)	Mar 18 23:06
Balrog__	but then again, there are many people who don't have those / don't want to go through the trouble of doing so	Mar 18 23:06
MinceR	well, i don't want to go through the trouble of using voicemail	Mar 18 23:07
MinceR	also, they can wait until i become available -- it rarely takes long :>	Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__	I prefer not to, but I still get them occasionally	Mar 18 23:07
MinceR	first thing i did was to disable voicemail	Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__	what about MMS?	Mar 18 23:07
Balrog__	do you use it?	Mar 18 23:08
MinceR	nope	Mar 18 23:08
Balrog__	ok.	Mar 18 23:08
MinceR	maybe i've received one in my life	Mar 18 23:08
MinceR	but generally i'd rather use email for that	Mar 18 23:08
Balrog__	that's another thing that apple left out of the iphone (until 3.0)	Mar 18 23:08
MinceR	i know	Mar 18 23:08
MinceR	it's going to be fun seeing the fanboys drool to see "new" features everyone else has had for decades	Mar 18 23:09
Balrog__	MinceR: I've seen those features from 'everyone else'	Mar 18 23:09
Balrog__	Apple seems to be better at implementing them	Mar 18 23:09
Balrog__	we'll see the side-by-side comparisons :)	Mar 18 23:10
Balrog__	the developers are happy, that's for sure	Mar 18 23:10
MinceR	i doubt they can win at even an arbitrarily vague scenario you're trying to set up	Mar 18 23:10
MinceR	well, the developers whose apps happened to be accepted, that is	Mar 18 23:11
Balrog__	they say 96% of apps last month were accepted.	Mar 18 23:11
Balrog__	You heard of the 'fart' apps and all, right?	Mar 18 23:11
MinceR	well, the developers have already learned what they shouldn't even try	Mar 18 23:11
Balrog__	Also, Apple added allowed API's for a lot of the stuff	Mar 18 23:12
MinceR	i'd care more about the background music player apps and the programming language interpreter apps	Mar 18 23:12
MinceR	guess what, you can't do those	Mar 18 23:12
Balrog__	like music database access, proximity sensor access, etc	Mar 18 23:12
MinceR	or provide an improved replacement for anything it ships with	Mar 18 23:12
MinceR	or something that happens to bother at&t	Mar 18 23:12
Balrog__	Background music players would be fine only if they give you a big warning or some other notification saying "app *** may use battery life!!!"	Mar 18 23:13
MinceR	or something that happens to provide an important feature apple managed to left out	Mar 18 23:13
MinceR	(copy/paste anyone?)	Mar 18 23:13
MinceR	i know they use battery life	Mar 18 23:13
MinceR	that's how CMOS works, you know	Mar 18 23:13
MinceR	if a state transition happens, current flows	Mar 18 23:13
Balrog__	the 'improved replacement' thing was treated interestingly ... at first those were rejected, then they started appearing (like improved mail apps)	Mar 18 23:13
MinceR	if battery life was all i cared about, i wouldn't put the damn thing into a mobile device in the first place	Mar 18 23:14
Balrog__	copy/paste would require a global temp dir. Apple didn't provide that	Mar 18 23:14
MinceR	yeah, we've heard all the excuses.	Mar 18 23:14
MinceR	the bottom line is that all apple products are seriously lacking in functionality	Mar 18 23:15
MinceR	and the only people who don't realize this are the apple fanboys.	Mar 18 23:15
Balrog__	Have you tried anything other than hackintosh?	Mar 18 23:15
MinceR	and the apple fanboys will naturally keep denying that they're delusional	Mar 18 23:15
Balrog__	I tried hackintosh and it was not a good experience at all.	Mar 18 23:15
MinceR	i'm not sure what you mean by hackintosh	Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__	osx on non-Apple hardware.	Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__	The drivers are messy	Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__	so is the kernel	Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__	you almost never get native support/performance	Mar 18 23:16
MinceR	i didn't expect it to be fast or stable or to have 3d acceleration	Mar 18 23:16
MinceR	i expected the gui to be as usable as the hype says it is	Mar 18 23:16
MinceR	it wasn't	Mar 18 23:16
Balrog__	if it's slow, it won't be usable	Mar 18 23:16
MinceR	i disregarded slowness because of that	Mar 18 23:17
_Hicham_	OSX is always hardware dependent	Mar 18 23:17
Balrog__	if you want mousefocus go somewhere else. It's messy everywhere.	Mar 18 23:17
MinceR	yes, if i want a gui that works the way i want it, i should go somewhere else	Mar 18 23:17
MinceR	that's what i'm doing	Mar 18 23:17
MinceR	and yes, osx is messy everywhere	Mar 18 23:17
MinceR	maybe someday apple will learn that not all users have the exact same needs and preferences	Mar 18 23:18
MinceR	or they'll go bankrupt	Mar 18 23:18
MinceR	and the fanboys won't understand why.	Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__	MinceR: I find the OS X gui more flexible than windows	Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__	or for that matter, xfce	Mar 18 23:18
MinceR	i find it less flexible	Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__	but then again, it's understandable with xfce	Mar 18 23:18
Balrog__	KDE has all the features but try finding them :P	Mar 18 23:20
Balrog__	Gnome ... well, ask Linux	Mar 18 23:21
Balrog__	Linus **	Mar 18 23:21
MinceR	i can find them	Mar 18 23:21
MinceR	and i think anyone who has the intelligence that's necessary to use a light switch can find them	Mar 18 23:22
Balrog__	so can I. But a very small handful of people I know use mousefocus....probably one or two at most (other than you)	Mar 18 23:22
MinceR	(oh, well, let's add literacy as a requirement)	Mar 18 23:22
MinceR	the point is to provide the option	Mar 18 23:22
MinceR	m$ and apple both believe they know better than the user	Mar 18 23:23
MinceR	they don't.	Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__	there's shareware that seems to add it....http://atomicbird.com/mo...	Mar 18 23:23
MinceR	until they realize that their guis will always inevitably suck.	Mar 18 23:23
MinceR	this is something their self-appointed "usability experts" should realize.	Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__	(and other 'hacks'...)	Mar 18 23:23
Balrog__	you'll have very cluttered code if you implement every feature every person wants	Mar 18 23:24
Balrog__	even the Linux programmers know this.	Mar 18 23:24
MinceR	well, focus follows mouse is nice on osx, but how will you reach the menu?	Mar 18 23:24
MinceR	some idiot had the idea to put it at the top	Mar 18 23:24
MinceR	what if another window is in the way?	Mar 18 23:24
MinceR	that's right, it will receive focus and suddenly its menu is there	Mar 18 23:24
Balrog__	what about COMMAND-something?	Mar 18 23:24
Balrog__	also, the menu bar never gets covered	Mar 18 23:25
MinceR	sometimes i don't want to mess with the keyboard	Mar 18 23:25
MinceR	also, the menu bar of the topmost window never gets covered even if it isn't nailed to the top	Mar 18 23:25
Balrog__	I've seen apps with no menubars :-o	Mar 18 23:25
MinceR	so have i	Mar 18 23:25
Balrog__	(on windows and linux)	Mar 18 23:25
MinceR	and i still prefer the risc os way	Mar 18 23:25
MinceR	btw, not even i knew what i wanted my gui to be like until i experimented a lot.	Mar 18 23:35
PetoKraus	well	Mar 18 23:39
PetoKraus	i am so used to my UI	Mar 18 23:39
PetoKraus	that i can't work with anything else	Mar 18 23:39
MinceR	i still have some ideas on how to change it. :)	Mar 18 23:39
MinceR	gn	Mar 18 23:40
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))		Mar 18 23:42

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 18th, 2009 - Part 3

Recent Techrights' Posts