| balzac | something like this was bound to happen to guy like RMS, with the long beard and the non-conformist attitude | Feb 20 05:17 |
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| balzac | of course the marketing-types would try to take the ball and run with it | Feb 20 05:17 |
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| twitter | M$ in Halloween wonders, " How can Microsoft capture some of the rabid developer mindshare being focused on OSS products?" | Feb 20 05:18 |
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| balzac | twitter: sounds like M$ has been toying with the community since RMS first made a blip on their radar | Feb 20 05:18 |
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| twitter | RMS has been doing his thing since 1984 or so. | Feb 20 05:19 |
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| twitter | M$ continues, " try to generate hacker interest in adding value to MS-sponsored code bases" ha ha. | Feb 20 05:19 |
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| balzac | 83 | Feb 20 05:20 |
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| balzac | Bill Gates has his "Open Letter to Hobbyists" | Feb 20 05:20 |
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| balzac | it's the opposite of the "GNU Manifesto" | Feb 20 05:21 |
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| balzac | That means that RMS is NEO and Bill Gates is agent Smith | Feb 20 05:21 |
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| twitter | Bill Gates and RMS had opposite reactions to the problem of computer scarcity. RMS tried to share, Gates tried to dominate. | Feb 20 05:22 |
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| twitter | Gate's reaction was all selfish. | Feb 20 05:23 |
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| balzac | business savvy | Feb 20 05:23 |
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| twitter | No, childish. | Feb 20 05:23 |
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| balzac | but ultimately, he'll be less important in the history of software | Feb 20 05:23 |
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| twitter | he broke his first system in high school | Feb 20 05:23 |
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| twitter | used it to his advantage and kept it unstable so he could "fix" it. | Feb 20 05:23 |
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| twitter | see a pattern there? | Feb 20 05:24 |
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| balzac | hmm | Feb 20 05:24 |
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| balzac | sounds like him | Feb 20 05:24 |
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| balzac | he's a weasel | Feb 20 05:25 |
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| twitter | I've quoted the important bits of a history here, http://slashdot.org/~twitte... | Feb 20 05:25 |
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| twitter | At about the same time, RMS was confronted with the same problems in a slightly different environment. | Feb 20 05:26 |
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| balzac | twitter: that's cool | Feb 20 05:26 |
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| balzac | yeah, it's really quite a story | Feb 20 05:26 |
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| balzac | the wealthiest man in the world and his arch-nemesis, a guy almost nobody has heard of | Feb 20 05:26 |
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| twitter | Thanks. The RMS reaction was to find underutilized resources and make them available. | Feb 20 05:27 |
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| twitter | He made anonymous passwords and would unlock offices so that people could use terminals there. | Feb 20 05:27 |
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| balzac | that's a good tidbit about Gates seizing control at such a young age | Feb 20 05:28 |
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| balzac | by denial of service | Feb 20 05:29 |
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| balzac | not in the sense it's used today with the packet storms | Feb 20 05:29 |
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| balzac | but by bringing the system down | Feb 20 05:29 |
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| twitter | He kept the computers broken so that he could earn money and computer time fixing them. | Feb 20 05:30 |
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| balzac | maybe that's when he conceived his vision of the BSOD | Feb 20 05:30 |
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| twitter | He learned how to scare people there, I'm sure. | Feb 20 05:30 |
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| balzac | a very cryptic looking error message which hasn't changed much in so many years | Feb 20 05:30 |
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| balzac | it's meant to baffle you and leave you at a dead end | Feb 20 05:30 |
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| balzac | Windows is a mind-prison | Feb 20 05:31 |
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| balzac | and a big joke, played by this prankster | Feb 20 05:31 |
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| twitter | Gotta go now. Take it easy on ESR. Mistakes are not crimes. | Feb 20 05:32 |
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| balzac | but it's starting to lose its humor when his joke is being played on school-kids all over the world | Feb 20 05:32 |
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| balzac | twitter: | Feb 20 05:32 |
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| balzac | I agree | Feb 20 05:32 |
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| balzac | ttyl | Feb 20 05:32 |
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| twitter | gn | Feb 20 05:32 |
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| schestowitz | toy | Feb 20 06:15 |
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| schestowitz | Almost 7am. Time for bed :-D | Feb 20 06:28 |
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| MinceR | hm, isn't there a less retarded ad agency than google that actually lets you choose who may advertise on your site? | Feb 20 08:18 |
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| MinceR | r4wr | Feb 20 09:41 |
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| toros | hi | Feb 20 10:28 |
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| MinceR | hay | Feb 20 10:29 |
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| toros | have you seen this mail? https://lists.ubuntu.com/archiv... | Feb 20 10:31 |
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| MinceR | nope | Feb 20 10:32 |
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| toros | Is ToolKid the next Schlaumuase? http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,10... | Feb 20 10:32 |
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| toros | I mean Schlaumause :) | Feb 20 10:33 |
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| schestowitz | Hey | Feb 20 10:46 |
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| toros | hi, Mr. schestowitz :) | Feb 20 10:47 |
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| schestowitz | WHat's up? | Feb 20 10:47 |
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| toros | Have you seen my links? | Feb 20 10:47 |
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| toros | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-d... | Feb 20 10:47 |
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| toros | http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,10... | Feb 20 10:47 |
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| toros | Maybe it is something interesting for boycottnovell.com? | Feb 20 10:47 |
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| toros | Could ToolKid be the next Schlaumause? | Feb 20 10:48 |
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| schestowitz | Sounds typical | Feb 20 10:48 |
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| schestowitz | NComputing... | Feb 20 10:48 |
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| schestowitz | They supply the soluition | Feb 20 10:48 |
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| schestowitz | Now occupied with one Microsoft lackey | Feb 20 10:49 |
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| schestowitz | They can ptobably use Wine | Feb 20 10:49 |
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| schestowitz | Like Vienna could | Feb 20 10:49 |
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| schestowitz | But this could be the result of malice. Someone wanting it to fail and manufacturing case of disability | Feb 20 10:50 |
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| toros | I wrote an article about the Macedonia-project... and there was, that Macedonia could be the Silicon Valley of Europe | Feb 20 10:50 |
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| schestowitz | Silicon Valley is fucked. | Feb 20 10:51 |
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| toros | because open source gives a great opportunity for talented people do build great things | Feb 20 10:51 |
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| schestowitz | Don't compare them.. Land of Mickeymouse is not in a good shape | Feb 20 10:51 |
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| schestowitz | California if in huge debt. | Feb 20 10:51 |
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| schestowitz | Now Kuala Lampour... *there's* a place. | Feb 20 10:51 |
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| toros | I think in the open source world you can forget the geographical place... what really counts, is the freenode channel :) | Feb 20 10:53 |
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| schestowitz | Then there's Google.. with a million Linux servers spying on people and doing PageRank (=just counting links and some other basic stuff)... that's just investment-dependent. | Feb 20 10:53 |
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| toros | I think the best things come from bedrooms... :) | Feb 20 10:54 |
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| toros | like irssi or Arch Linux | Feb 20 10:54 |
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| schestowitz | WordPress too | Feb 20 10:56 |
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| schestowitz | b2+matt mullenweg and others | Feb 20 10:56 |
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| schestowitz | maybe facebook too, I dunno the story well... | Feb 20 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | But WordPress is GPL... purely | Feb 20 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | And a success story with a big business around Free software | Feb 20 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | Drupal too, I think... he was doing his PhD while building Drupal | Feb 20 10:57 |
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| toros | I know some Drupal devs | Feb 20 10:59 |
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| toros | Drupal is very popular in Hungary | Feb 20 10:59 |
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| toros | if you start here a community site, the best choice is drupal, because you can find very easily people who can manage drupal | Feb 20 11:01 |
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| schestowitz | This is good | Feb 20 11:02 |
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| schestowitz | Colleges should teach stuff like this | Feb 20 11:02 |
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| schestowitz | It encourages learning, sharing, etc | Feb 20 11:02 |
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| schestowitz | Office (menu layouts 'education') encourages isolation and blue screens of death | Feb 20 11:02 |
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| toros | we have now a new project called Ubuntu Academy... the goal is to teach people how to take part in open source community | Feb 20 11:03 |
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| schestowitz | That's brilliant | Feb 20 11:04 |
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| toros | we will have a 2 day conference, where we teach people about the processes of our community | Feb 20 11:04 |
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| schestowitz | Just Ubuntu? | Feb 20 11:04 |
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| toros | It is organised by the Ubuntu community... but what you learn is usefull everywhere :) | Feb 20 11:05 |
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| toros | the Ubuntu community is far the largest free software community in Hungary | Feb 20 11:06 |
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| toros | we have 9000 registered users at ubuntu.hu - and the population of Hungary is about 9 million ppl. :) | Feb 20 11:09 |
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| toros | so 0,1 percent of the Hungarians are registered userd of ubuntu.hu :) | Feb 20 11:09 |
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| toros | * users | Feb 20 11:09 |
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| schestowitz | That's good. Most people do not register | Feb 20 11:11 |
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| toros | we have a great community here - Ubuntu is much more about community, not the software itself | Feb 20 11:12 |
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| toros | I don't think that Ubuntu is the better than any other distribution in the world | Feb 20 11:13 |
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| toros | It is just a Linux distribution like any other | Feb 20 11:13 |
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| toros | but the community is great here, and if you want to do great things, and enjoy to be part of a free software community, then Ubuntu is the best choice | Feb 20 11:14 |
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| schestowitz | BN server is under huge load... barely loadable. | Feb 20 11:21 |
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| schestowitz | Hmmmmm.... | Feb 20 11:21 |
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| mib_r9grea | what's going on with the site? | Feb 20 11:21 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know | Feb 20 11:22 |
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| schestowitz | Very high load | Feb 20 11:22 |
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| schestowitz | Critical load | Feb 20 11:22 |
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| mib_r9grea | oh:( | Feb 20 11:22 |
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| schestowitz | I'm diagnosing | Feb 20 11:22 |
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| mib_r9grea | Nothing like a lot of traffic to mess things up | Feb 20 11:22 |
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| schestowitz | "Memory Used 70.3 %" | Feb 20 11:23 |
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| schestowitz | I'm not sure what's going on... since 5 minutes ago | Feb 20 11:24 |
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| schestowitz | seems to be stablising now. | Feb 20 11:25 |
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| mib_r9grea | Good luck fixing it. I gotta get my daily fix of BN. LOL | Feb 20 11:25 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Feb 20 11:26 |
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| mib_r9grea | bye. | Feb 20 11:27 |
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| schestowitz | brb | Feb 20 11:31 |
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| schestowitz | New in-the-wild attack targets fully-patched Adobe Reader < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/2... > ... Evince.. KPDF? | Feb 20 11:42 |
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| jose | from yesterday (but just saw it this morning): http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/... | Feb 20 12:59 |
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| jose | Suit over Vista marketing no longer class action | Feb 20 12:59 |
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| jose | >> In her decision, she wrote that the people who brought the lawsuit did not prove Microsoft artificially inflated demand for PCs that could run only the stripped-down version of Vista. | Feb 20 12:59 |
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| jose | >> They also failed to prove Microsoft was unjustly enriched by sales of "Vista Capable" computers, Pechman wrote. | Feb 20 12:59 |
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| jose | >> Over the last year, the case has made public reams of e-mails between Microsoft, PC makers .... | Feb 20 13:00 |
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| schestowitz | Hey | Feb 20 13:08 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, it's ridiculous | Feb 20 13:08 |
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| schestowitz | I couldn't help thinking about Tuesday's (ish) news about 2 judges getting busted for being bribed | Feb 20 13:09 |
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| schestowitz | And remember Judge Jackson and what the "Microsoft religion" did to him. | Feb 20 13:09 |
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| *schestowitz just realised that waving a hand in front of an CRT leads to different outcome compared to doing the same with a flatscreen. Hmmm... | Feb 20 13:37 |
| MinceR | CRTs flicker a lot more than LCDs | Feb 20 13:41 |
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| MinceR | and are refreshed sequentially | Feb 20 13:41 |
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| oiaohm | Crt also have pure black LCD's don't | Feb 20 13:46 |
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| oiaohm | So its a devil be damed mess until we get Oled. | Feb 20 13:47 |
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| schestowitz | Thanks. This was empirical to me... I didn't read anything, but you gave the answer. | Feb 20 13:48 |
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| *schestowitz uses two screens on this PC... one a widescreen 24-inch LCD, another a 19-inch CRT | Feb 20 13:49 |
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| oiaohm | I am personally looking forward to like Oled displays. | Feb 20 13:51 |
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| oiaohm | Plasmas are too hot to be near. | Feb 20 13:52 |
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| schestowitz | Digg is still all wonky | Feb 20 13:52 |
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| schestowitz | I hardly feel like visiting that site anymore, unless they get those probs worked out. | Feb 20 13:52 |
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| schestowitz | Plasmas are to be banned in the EU | Feb 20 13:52 |
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| schestowitz | Energy-guzzling luxuries. | Feb 20 13:52 |
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| oiaohm | Yep | Feb 20 13:52 |
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| oiaohm | That will force work on Oled | Feb 20 13:53 |
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| oiaohm | On top of doing true black they eat less power than LCD. | Feb 20 13:53 |
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| oiaohm | In equal to back lit mode. | Feb 20 13:53 |
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| oiaohm | Most likely we will be left with refletive LCD and oled as screen types. | Feb 20 13:54 |
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| jose | schestowitz, what's wrong with digg? | Feb 20 13:55 |
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| schestowitz | Too many bad pageloads | Feb 20 13:56 |
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| schestowitz | It's a waste of time | Feb 20 13:56 |
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| schestowitz | Gone on for like 3 weeks now and not improved | Feb 20 13:56 |
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| schestowitz | It makes it hard to submit without reloading pages and wrestling with the process (too many bugs) | Feb 20 13:56 |
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| schestowitz | Even just loading normal pages sometimes redirects to "error" | Feb 20 13:57 |
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| schestowitz | They'll turn away regulars unless they fix this. | Feb 20 13:57 |
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| jose | the reason i ask | Feb 20 13:57 |
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| jose | is because my tinfoil hat is on | Feb 20 13:57 |
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| schestowitz | It's not just me. | Feb 20 13:58 |
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| schestowitz | Or you.. | Feb 20 13:58 |
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| jose | what should I look for specifically? | Feb 20 13:58 |
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| jose | let me know if you want me to submit something | Feb 20 13:58 |
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| jose | i don't go to digg, but just went and found these | Feb 20 13:59 |
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| jose | http://blog.wired.com/business/2... | Feb 20 13:59 |
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| jose | http://www.chriswiegman.com/2009/02/from-vist... | Feb 20 13:59 |
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| jose | http://www.labnol.org/internet/search/google... | Feb 20 13:59 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: you probably want to redesign (see http://www.blagblagblag.org/developers/ ). Move the pages without losing any to a side place like "Old site" | Feb 20 13:59 |
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| schestowitz | Use something like Drupal to make a good impression. | Feb 20 13:59 |
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| jose | >> The banner, seen at right, urges them to ditch IE 6 and upgrade to Internet Explorer 7. | Feb 20 14:00 |
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| schestowitz | jose: it's always useful if you pass around pointers to BN | Feb 20 14:00 |
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| jose | >> From Vista to Linux (It was a lot easier than I thought) | Feb 20 14:00 |
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| jose | ? | Feb 20 14:00 |
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| schestowitz | It exposes people not already in the 'choir' to the message | Feb 20 14:00 |
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| schestowitz | I put that Vista post in yesterday's (last night's) list of links | Feb 20 14:01 |
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| jose | >> Single Google Query uses 1000 Machines in 0.2 seconds | Feb 20 14:01 |
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| schestowitz | That Google item is pretty amazing | Feb 20 14:01 |
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| jose | i frequently mention bn or a bn link | Feb 20 14:01 |
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| schestowitz | Won't see such power built upon Windows any time soon | Feb 20 14:01 |
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| schestowitz | jose: yes, I noticed that | Feb 20 14:01 |
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| schestowitz | We have some fans in other sites who regularly link to us. | Feb 20 14:02 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know who these people are but they help | Feb 20 14:02 |
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| jose | finnish companies are trying to get users to upgrade internet explorer | Feb 20 14:02 |
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| jose | does finland have an ms deal (from the ooxml days) | Feb 20 14:02 |
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| jose | ? | Feb 20 14:02 |
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| jose | upgrading IE is what you do if you want to be locked in further | Feb 20 14:03 |
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| jose | never mind.. the article said this: IE 6, released in 2001, is the scourge of web programmers, user-experience designers and technical-support staff alike. The browser is stacked with quirks that cause web pages to render differently from all other browsers, and special considerations must be taken by web builders to accommodate users running IE 6. | Feb 20 14:04 |
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| jose | the good news is that firefox is large enough now that ie6 is an outsider | Feb 20 14:06 |
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| oiaohm | IE 7 is still are trouble. | Feb 20 14:06 |
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| oiaohm | None of the IE's are 100 precent compadiblie with each other. | Feb 20 14:06 |
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| schestowitz | Wikileaks publishes secret donor list < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0... > | Feb 20 14:06 |
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| oiaohm | I remember IE 4 | Feb 20 14:06 |
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| jose | yeah, i was going to say that ie 6 is trouble .. when compared to everything else that is more recent | Feb 20 14:07 |
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| schestowitz | jose: Finland too was corrupted by the OOXML fiasco | Feb 20 14:07 |
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| jose | ok, schestowitz, i'm not sure if this would be related, but that's why i asked.. i suspected that | Feb 20 14:07 |
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| jose | meaning that a major deal was announced... france had something like that i think | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| schestowitz | Finland... well, you'd think that because of Linus and all... | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&a... | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| jose | of course, the article is about norway not finland | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| jose | lol | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| schestowitz | Norway too | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| jose | ok | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| jose | lol | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| schestowitz | Norway was corrupted by MS massively | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| schestowitz | More than Finland | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| jose | i got thrown off by the finn.no site mentioned | Feb 20 14:08 |
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| jose | that's the one with the protests right? | Feb 20 14:09 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/10/06... | Feb 20 14:09 |
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| schestowitz | That's just the latest among about a dozen | Feb 20 14:09 |
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| schestowitz | yes, protests too | Feb 20 14:09 |
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| jose | so if they get lots of modern ms "goodies" then supporting the old becomes a hassle | Feb 20 14:09 |
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| Omar871 | Hi all | Feb 20 14:10 |
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| jose | and they can lead the charge around the world that others might follow | Feb 20 14:10 |
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| Omar871 | So what do you think of this guy? http://lunduke.com/?p=155 | Feb 20 14:10 |
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| jose | invest in norway and lose some money, than more than make up for it from elsewhere.. and get more lock-in | Feb 20 14:10 |
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| jose | than -> then | Feb 20 14:11 |
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| oiaohm | There is one reason why some comanies would have backed OOXML without MS help. Tax. How do you tax free software. | Feb 20 14:11 |
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| oiaohm | comanies/countries | Feb 20 14:11 |
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| schestowitz | Seems like Vista7 is rushed: Vista SP2 release candidate goes closed beta < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/10... > | Feb 20 14:11 |
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| jose | you tax the services and everything else that grows on top | Feb 20 14:12 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe they add soke bloat and more DRM now, who knows? | Feb 20 14:12 |
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| jose | you may have to change the tax code | Feb 20 14:12 |
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| schestowitz | It's under wraps. | Feb 20 14:12 |
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| schestowitz | wb, Omar871 | Feb 20 14:12 |
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| schestowitz | Omar871: he's a no-no | Feb 20 14:12 |
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| schestowitz | Someone warned me about him last week | Feb 20 14:12 |
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| schestowitz | Pro-Mono(vell), some other Freedom-hostile stuff... | Feb 20 14:13 |
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| schestowitz | I used to link to some posts from there but was asked not to | Feb 20 14:13 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: that's a far fetched suggestion | Feb 20 14:13 |
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| schestowitz | Remember that nations benefit from developing locally. | Feb 20 14:14 |
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| schestowitz | It keeps the money inside the country | Feb 20 14:14 |
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| schestowitz | that said, MS is muli-national with many cronies that act as colonialist overlords | Feb 20 14:14 |
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| oiaohm | Name numbers of elected people who think long term. | Feb 20 14:14 |
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| oiaohm | Ie result of changing most of your base over to Open Source is a short term tax loss until compaines start operating with more profit that is business taxable. | Feb 20 14:15 |
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| oiaohm | There would have to be 1 or 2 people who did not look long term. | Feb 20 14:16 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news... (Asus has team working on Android netbooks) | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| jose | the government itself would save money.. unless ms was subsidizing.. ie, they were bought off | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| schestowitz | But wait.. | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft pays TAX? | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| schestowitz | That would be news to me | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| oiaohm | That happened here in the Australian end before natiational arcives jumped up and down. | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| jose | maybe not even microsoft but the resellers | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/16/... | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| oiaohm | Price goverment pays for MS products. | Feb 20 14:17 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: pays to whom? Ballmer? | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| oiaohm | Here is gst that is not avoidable. | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| oiaohm | Its like smoking. | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| schestowitz | U2's new album leaked online < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news... > | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: maybe it is | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| oiaohm | We all know it bad but goverments around the world get some income. | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| oiaohm | So they keep on allowing it. | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| schestowitz | Windows is like smoking- -- harmful and deception-centric. | Feb 20 14:18 |
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| oiaohm | Stupid part abotu smoking is the tax on smokes don't cover the long term medical bills goverments have to pay. | Feb 20 14:19 |
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| oiaohm | Caused by smoking. | Feb 20 14:19 |
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| oiaohm | Yet goverments around the world are relucted to ban it out right. | Feb 20 14:19 |
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| jose | what i worry about is that people fear change | Feb 20 14:19 |
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| oiaohm | This is what I am getting at lot of goverments around the world are crap at thinking long term. | Feb 20 14:20 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: not only that | Feb 20 14:20 |
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| oiaohm | Hmm here sort term income lets keep protecting it even if it costs us 1000 times more. | Feb 20 14:20 |
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| schestowitz | Smoking kills many people early | Feb 20 14:20 |
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| schestowitz | This means less pensions/welfare | Feb 20 14:20 |
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| schestowitz | Same in the US with diet | Feb 20 14:20 |
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| oiaohm | Even allowing for that. | Feb 20 14:20 |
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| jose | not if they have to do it, but if you ask them to decide for many others, .. politicians would rather be conservative ("if it ain't broke...") until things are actually falling apart | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| oiaohm | It still costs way more.. | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| schestowitz | Some parts of the population driven to obesity = early death = no pension | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| oiaohm | Yes and the medical costs of a obese person before they die. | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| schestowitz | Similar stories with patents | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| oiaohm | ? | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| schestowitz | Short-term gain for some trolls. | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| jose | there is no getting around that linux needs to be marketed | Feb 20 14:21 |
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| schestowitz | Copyrights too, as Lessig would show | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| jose | when jack/jill user know linux and ask for it, things will change | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| oiaohm | Linux need to get desktop ready first. | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| schestowitz | Suppress young people, provide welfare to dead people (their kids and grandkids) | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: ready for many people I know | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| schestowitz | Vista is not ready | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| schestowitz | Vista7 is far from ready | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| schestowitz | It's not even sold | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| oiaohm | Compared to OS X | Feb 20 14:22 |
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| oiaohm | Not crap Vista | Feb 20 14:23 |
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| schestowitz | OS X may work, but so does Mandriva | Feb 20 14:23 |
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| schestowitz | Show me something I can't do.... | Feb 20 14:23 |
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| jose | one issue with desktop will be eyecandy.. on the surface, what looks more realistic seems better | Feb 20 14:23 |
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| oiaohm | Crash and inform you of it in a timely manner schestowitz | Feb 20 14:23 |
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| jose | linux needs to court artists (hobbyist and otherwise) | Feb 20 14:23 |
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| jose | ie, we need to work harder at taking LInux to the people | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: you're "LinuxHaters Redux", so there's room for bias. | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| schestowitz | jose: there's already lots of oit | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| oiaohm | So new users end up reseting system when they should have waited. | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| oiaohm | Ie KMS need to be in Linux so users can treat it more like XP. | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| schestowitz | it | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| schestowitz | See KDE4 themes (Plasma) | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| schestowitz | See Lancelot | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| Omar871 | schestowitz: What do you mean by "no-no"? | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| schestowitz | See some GNOME themes too | Feb 20 14:24 |
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| schestowitz | Omar871: the person is trouble | Feb 20 14:25 |
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| oiaohm | Good part lot of what I am talking about should be on line this 12 months. | Feb 20 14:25 |
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| oiaohm | Start a big marking pushing in 2010 | Feb 20 14:25 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: doesn't ever happen to me | Feb 20 14:25 |
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| Omar871 | schestowitz: In what aspect? | Feb 20 14:25 |
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| jose | i'm talking about details that differentiate between something that looks alive vs looking like a picture | Feb 20 14:25 |
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| jose | anyway, i don't want to push that point without looking | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| oiaohm | Reason I know it I also work with the biggest cause of video driver kernel paniks. | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| oiaohm | wine project. | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| schestowitz | Omar871: all sorts. See recent posts, as I was shown some by one who complained | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| jose | i judge by what I normally come across but i don't do eyecandy much myself | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| schestowitz | Another similar chap is Bill Beebe | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| schestowitz | These people cause trouble. | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| jose | personally, i want to work on the whole feel | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| oiaohm | Secound biggest cause of kernel panics in video drivers is compiz | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: wine is not Linux | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| jose | but at the end of the day, it boils down to having more artists and other talent on board.. i think | Feb 20 14:26 |
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| oiaohm | Wine runs on Linux schestowitz | Feb 20 14:27 |
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| schestowitz | It does | Feb 20 14:27 |
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| oiaohm | Also something new user are highly likely to be using. | Feb 20 14:27 |
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| schestowitz | But it's like using a car's engine for barbecue. | Feb 20 14:27 |
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| oiaohm | Failure comes down to that Linux video stack don't handle kernel paniks well. | Feb 20 14:27 |
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| oiaohm | Until KMS goes in it will not. | Feb 20 14:27 |
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| schestowitz | If they come to Linux just to run wine, then they should set expectsations accordingly | Feb 20 14:28 |
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| schestowitz | Linux is now Windows | Feb 20 14:28 |
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| schestowitz | *not | Feb 20 14:28 |
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| schestowitz | jose: have you made a wiki page? | Feb 20 14:28 |
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| jose | no | Feb 20 14:28 |
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| oiaohm | Wine is the most common trigger because it pushes video card drivers to there limits. | Feb 20 14:28 |
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| schestowitz | Fine | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| oiaohm | Now user can be playing a open source 3d game and have it happen too. | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | So don't rely on Wine | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | Don't do what it doesn't say on the box | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | GNU/Linux is not a system for running .exe and .DLL files | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| oiaohm | Basically its a defect in X11 simplest findable by wine. | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | It's no place for Mono and DRM, either | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | So to say Linux lacks the DRM "feature" is flawed. | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | Or "Linux can't do DirectX" well | Feb 20 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | A horse is not good at swimming | Feb 20 14:30 |
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| schestowitz | But horses don't live in oceans | Feb 20 14:30 |
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| oiaohm | Also that is the other thing. Changes in the video stack of Linux makes native direct x possable. | Feb 20 14:30 |
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| schestowitz | X developers should not waste time bothering with MS DirectX compat | Feb 20 14:30 |
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| schestowitz | They should make a strong Free desktop | Feb 20 14:30 |
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| jose | oiaohm, i haven't studied linux that well to judge.. hopefully i'll find time eventually | Feb 20 14:30 |
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| jose | without being perfect, linux offers some fantastic things | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| jose | imo | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| oiaohm | Video card makers made the alteration that support it schestowitz | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: you talk about this whole 'pragmatic' thing, where pragmatic means "like another platform" | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| jose | the most marketable aspects are the freedom, but you need to enable user to tap into it | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| jose | you don't say freedom is great.. | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| schestowitz | Don't try to turn horses to elephants | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| jose | you enable it | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| jose | we can do more in that department | Feb 20 14:31 |
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| oiaohm | Video card memory managment in dri2 also fixes up another bug people don't notice. | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | DirectX is about fighting Freedom | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | DirectX is to be suppressed | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | Wine is important, but it stifles some porting too | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | It gives the message that DX is OK | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| oiaohm | Switch between 2 X11 servers or X11 server and Console each time is russian rollet if screen keeps working at moment. | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | Look at Picasa... | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | Or WoW | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | Bad, bad... | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| schestowitz | Same with Moon Lie and Silver Lie | Feb 20 14:32 |
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| jose | oiaohm, without specifics, i can't argue here one way or other | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| schestowitz | Novell is used by Microsoft to pressure devs (web devs) to choose Windows DRM and MS non-standard | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| schestowitz | *dards | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| oiaohm | Basically there are a lot of really annoying core bugs in Linux video card interfaces that need to go buy buy. | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| jose | are we even arguing implementation or design? | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| oiaohm | Design work is done on the fixes jose | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: okay, so report bugs | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| schestowitz | If you find them (I don;t) | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| oiaohm | It the final coding and deployment of them. | Feb 20 14:33 |
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| oiaohm | schestowitz: have been bug reported. They are DRI2 KMS roll outs this year. | Feb 20 14:34 |
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| oiaohm | That fix the bugs. | Feb 20 14:34 |
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| oiaohm | So making all those annoyances disappear for good. | Feb 20 14:34 |
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| jose | if i understood you, you are saying that we need more people *debugging* vid device drivers and infrastructure | Feb 20 14:34 |
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| jose | ? | Feb 20 14:34 |
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| oiaohm | Not really. New drivers coded on a infrastructure that by design can work. | Feb 20 14:35 |
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| jose | maybe we should very soon start a project to get linux into the hands of windows game makers everywhere | Feb 20 14:35 |
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| oiaohm | Old infrastructure of video card interfacing in Linux was basically broken its design. | Feb 20 14:35 |
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| oiaohm | Too many cooks basiclaly. Text mode X11 Frame buffer were all trying to memory manage the video card at once without talking to each other what they were doing. | Feb 20 14:36 |
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| jose | oiaohm, i thought you said design was fine.. ok, so you didn't say that | Feb 20 14:36 |
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| jose | but without talking specifics i can't join this argument | Feb 20 14:36 |
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| oiaohm | New design is ok. | Feb 20 14:36 |
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| jose | dri2 is what you are talking about? | Feb 20 14:37 |
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| oiaohm | Yep dri2 gem kms. | Feb 20 14:37 |
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| jose | do you mean what will come out in the upcoming X versions? | Feb 20 14:37 |
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| oiaohm | Yep | Feb 20 14:37 |
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| jose | i haven't kept up with this but did read about it recently | Feb 20 14:37 |
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| oiaohm | Only been in development for 4 years. | Feb 20 14:37 |
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| oiaohm | Solving major video card problems is not fun. | Feb 20 14:37 |
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| jose | what will be required to migrate> | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| jose | ? | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| oiaohm | Not much really. | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| oiaohm | Change X11 server and drivers. | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| oiaohm | Applications don't need to know the difference. | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| jose | so change all drivers... | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| jose | but not change them much> | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| jose | ? | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| jose | [keep hitting > instead of ?] | Feb 20 14:38 |
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| oiaohm | No problem I read > as ? | Feb 20 14:39 |
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| oiaohm | Opps its X11 server Kernel and drivers | Feb 20 14:39 |
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| oiaohm | Not that big of deal for applications since kernel swaping is done quite commonly. | Feb 20 14:40 |
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| oiaohm | Same with X11 version swaping. | Feb 20 14:41 |
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| oiaohm | this is when having standards is great. | Feb 20 14:41 |
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| MinceR | iirc even oleds have burn-in | Feb 20 14:42 |
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| jose | schestowitz, ok i probably should start a wikipage on a distro design. | Feb 20 14:42 |
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| MinceR | but my comment was regarding the different effect of waving you hand in front of the display | Feb 20 14:42 |
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| jose | not sure when i will do that though | Feb 20 14:42 |
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| MinceR | :> | Feb 20 14:42 |
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| oiaohm | pled alteration on oled design is more resistant to it. | Feb 20 14:43 |
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| oiaohm | Ie burn-in | Feb 20 14:43 |
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| oiaohm | Yep crt phosopers are used in pled | Feb 20 14:43 |
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| oiaohm | Basically is how to make a crt flat without redraw issue. | Feb 20 14:44 |
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| *Omar871 has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Feb 20 14:44 |
| jose | schestowitz, how many "Jose" are there | Feb 20 14:44 |
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| jose | apparently that username is taken | Feb 20 14:45 |
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| jose | i can find something else, but i wanted to help avoid confusion by getting something like that | Feb 20 14:45 |
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| jose | if you reserved it, let me know; otherwise i'll try something else | Feb 20 14:45 |
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| schestowitz | jose: that would be good. I'd help out | Feb 20 14:45 |
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| schestowitz | I intend to work more on the Wiki in the second half of the year. | Feb 20 14:46 |
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| jose | is "jose" taken by someone else? | Feb 20 14:46 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: what redraw issue? | Feb 20 14:46 |
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| schestowitz | That's old news. | Feb 20 14:47 |
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| schestowitz | jose: I don't know how many there are, but nothing beats Muhammad. | Feb 20 14:47 |
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| jose | i'm surprised that jose would be taken | Feb 20 14:48 |
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| jose | that's all | Feb 20 14:48 |
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| oiaohm | Old news yes. Problem is patches to fix only this year schestowitz. Was meant to be out middle of 2008 but as per normal its going to be about a year late. X11 project seams to need + 1 year to there time tables a lot. | Feb 20 14:48 |
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| jose | schestowitz, is the create account working? | Feb 20 14:48 |
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| jose | oh | Feb 20 14:49 |
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| jose | my bad | Feb 20 14:49 |
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| jose | i was login in | Feb 20 14:49 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: so why bring it up? | Feb 20 14:49 |
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| schestowitz | it's like kicking an old Qt horse to vilify KDE. | Feb 20 14:49 |
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| schestowitz | jose: do a google on 'jose' and see who's #1 | Feb 20 14:50 |
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| oiaohm | Starting advertising heavly after we have it. People cannot pick on that bit any more. ALos its simple to trip doing demostrations. | Feb 20 14:50 |
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| schestowitz | Yesterday I somehow found myself in #3 spot for "roy" | Feb 20 14:50 |
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| jose | i just grabbed "jose" btw.. | Feb 20 14:50 |
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| oiaohm | If you forget about it. | Feb 20 14:50 |
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| schestowitz | jose: register it with Freenode | Feb 20 14:50 |
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| schestowitz | jose: it should (in the Wiki | Feb 20 14:50 |
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| jose | i got the impression it was already taken for freenode. | Feb 20 14:51 |
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| schestowitz | I suppose so.. maybe deprecated | Feb 20 14:51 |
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| jose | i don't expect it to be available unless there is a new service or a relatively small group | Feb 20 14:51 |
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| oiaohm | Audio stack not working correctly you can live with as long as video works. | Feb 20 14:51 |
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| oiaohm | MS has proven that many times over the years. | Feb 20 14:52 |
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| schestowitz | Google Most Visited Property In January < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/200... > | Feb 20 14:53 |
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| schestowitz | Vista's audio stack is a mess | Feb 20 14:53 |
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| jose | oiaohm, do you have a link to something objective.. i have no probs with my use case and i haven't studied linux that well (ie, source code and design) | Feb 20 14:53 |
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| schestowitz | Same to be expected from Vista7. | Feb 20 14:53 |
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| schestowitz | jose: oiaohm is like Beranger in ways... he bashes Linux for reasons os supposedly improving it | Feb 20 14:54 |
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| schestowitz | Jeremy Allison approves this behaviour | Feb 20 14:55 |
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| jose | i have no prob discussing something to improve it | Feb 20 14:55 |
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| jose | but just saying things that i personally can't verify is a little bothersome | Feb 20 14:55 |
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| jose | at least if the person keeps going and going | Feb 20 14:55 |
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| jose | i won't make a judgment on oiaohm | Feb 20 14:55 |
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| jose | i'm interested in that stuff, btw | Feb 20 14:55 |
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| oiaohm | Not exacty bashing. I have to assess stuff from deployment issues all the time. | Feb 20 14:56 |
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| schestowitz | Bill'sBC is running gates adverts again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7899396.stm | Feb 20 14:56 |
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| oiaohm | Sometime times in open source projects it pays to wait. | Feb 20 14:56 |
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| schestowitz | The BBC is corrupt, for a fact | Feb 20 14:56 |
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| jose | that's fine, but if you give numbers, names, addresses ( ;-) ) we can better deal with the problem | Feb 20 14:56 |
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| schestowitz | But they'll beautify it somehow, I'm sure. | Feb 20 14:56 |
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| oiaohm | Other times make sure you train users for issues they will hit. | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| schestowitz | Like all reporters who are selected to do this | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| jose | what i mean is that there is a fine line between helping and negative marketing | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| oiaohm | Problem is either way you have to aware of what issues there are. | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| schestowitz | The BBC is now literally run by MS execs in some areas | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| oiaohm | Its bit like claiming MS has perfect secuirty. | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| schestowitz | It needs to be disconnected from tax-extracted revenue. | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| oiaohm | Everyone who knows security now that is crap. | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| jose | from personal experience i don't encounter those issues but i only do the basics with this pc | Feb 20 14:57 |
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| oiaohm | now knows | Feb 20 14:58 |
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| oiaohm | For you jose this also says if you think its good now it will only get better. | Feb 20 14:58 |
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| jose | i had a lot of fun playing openarena and some other games for the 2007 gamefest sponsored by nuxified | Feb 20 14:58 |
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| jose | i bought an older nvidia card for the occasion and it worked like a charm | Feb 20 14:59 |
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| schestowitz | Red Hat PR.. no MS.. http://www.ad-hoc-news.de/red-hat-executiv... | Feb 20 14:59 |
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| jose | but current state of art is beyond openarena&friends | Feb 20 14:59 |
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| schestowitz | jose: Linux has state of the art too | Feb 20 15:00 |
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| schestowitz | But not Free software | Feb 20 15:00 |
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| schestowitz | The Big Games that are OpenGL based sometimes come to GNU/Linux | Feb 20 15:00 |
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| jose | well, i was just saying that as fun as openarena was, i can imagine that the newest of games would tax the system more | Feb 20 15:00 |
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| jose | for starters, i was using an older nvidia | Feb 20 15:00 |
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| oiaohm | I don't like being compared to Beranger for simple fact he and a lot of other haters have the habit of complain about things without facts. Like I will always point to what makes the problem I am talking about disappear were I can. | Feb 20 15:00 |
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| jose | and gamers always want the newest | Feb 20 15:00 |
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| oiaohm | So people suffering from it know what they have to wait for. | Feb 20 15:01 |
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| jose | oiaohm, but you have to give more details | Feb 20 15:01 |
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| jose | i mean the future always always basically brings better | Feb 20 15:01 |
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| jose | to judge if the present is good enough for X i have to know more details | Feb 20 15:02 |
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| jose | for my use cases X, i am fine (eg, now without a video card) | Feb 20 15:02 |
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| schestowitz | "As I said before ... a deal with the devil is still a deal with the devil. It's true they made no patent agreements like Novell, but I think it's still a bad decision. M$ has only one purpose, or goal, they will destroy or assimilate all competition." | Feb 20 15:02 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/... | Feb 20 15:02 |
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| jose | i use somewhat oldish systems or low end.. but the games were no prob with the nvidia card | Feb 20 15:02 |
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| schestowitz | "The angle seems to be that Microsoft will use their marketing muscle to encourage the customer to run a Windows Server platform and allow Red Hat as a guest. In other words, Microsoft wants the primary platform to be Microsoft with anything else virtualized." | Feb 20 15:02 |
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| oiaohm | DRI 2 also fixs up users who want to keep on runnign compiz on like ATI cards without issues. | Feb 20 15:03 |
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| oiaohm | Yes flashy stuff of Linux that attracts users not working is not really good things to be causing splats. | Feb 20 15:03 |
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| schestowitz | Mine works great | Feb 20 15:03 |
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| oiaohm | Video card schestowitz | Feb 20 15:04 |
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| oiaohm | Most people that have it without going nuts are running Nvidia. | Feb 20 15:04 |
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| oiaohm | compiz + opengl program on DRI 1 designed drivers like ATI is unstable. | Feb 20 15:04 |
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| oiaohm | Yep demoing compiz on ATI card at moment would be asking for trouble. | Feb 20 15:05 |
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| jose | most people that would demo | Feb 20 15:05 |
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| jose | would tell the person to be sure to have a $20 or whatever card at a minimum | Feb 20 15:06 |
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| oiaohm | Yes no matter how much you say that there will always be a percent that go home and try it on ATI. | Feb 20 15:06 |
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| jose | anyway.. linux graphics chip makers are coming on board with open source and that is what was needed to keep the system clean | Feb 20 15:06 |
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| oiaohm | Or Intel or via. | Feb 20 15:06 |
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| oiaohm | Exactly the bit I am waiting for jose before pushing it hard. | Feb 20 15:07 |
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| jose | soon i expect to favor amd/ati over nvidia if nvidia doesn't open up and amd keeps pushing forward as they are | Feb 20 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | Just in: Bomb kills 28 at Shiite funeral in Pakistan < http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/world/BO105239/ > | Feb 20 15:07 |
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| oiaohm | Nvidia broke up the first video card allance on Linux. | Feb 20 15:08 |
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| oiaohm | So it would only be fair if the secound causes them hell. | Feb 20 15:08 |
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| jose | i am going to get off so i can work on some things.. i find it so difficult to stay on because then i feel pressured to follow the conversations | Feb 20 15:12 |
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| jose | talk later.. (my email is hozelda .. yahoo.com domain) | Feb 20 15:15 |
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| *jose has quit ("Leaving") | Feb 20 15:15 |
| schestowitz | Jailed SF Network Admin Terry Childs Speaks Out < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159868... > | Feb 20 15:42 |
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| schestowitz | OLPC offshoot.. Pixel Qi Readies Battery-saving Laptop Screens < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159891/pixel_qi_readi... > | Feb 20 15:49 |
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| twitter | Sharp has had good low power LCDs for a long time. They use some kind of mirror surface behind the LCD. When you get it in the sunlight, it's as bright as the sky or sun. | Feb 20 16:06 |
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| schestowitz | I think her technology (Mary Lou Jespen??) is to do with pixel compression too | Feb 20 16:08 |
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| schestowitz | The density of pixels in OLPC is high (was it two-mode?) | Feb 20 16:09 |
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| twitter | I hope it works well. Don't know the density. | Feb 20 16:09 |
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| twitter | Any kind of deal with M$ that is used as a market distinguisher is a bad deal for free software. Exclusivity is the antithesis of software freedom and even the hint of such exclusivity by approval or certification is evil. | Feb 20 16:09 |
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| schestowitz | Hehe. "Meanwhile the girls are taught to be self-effacing, quiet, and that their main goal in life is to get married to a man. Mom sets such an awesome example-- she gives up her own name when she gets married, husband is the boss, boys are slobs with no household skills." | Feb 20 16:12 |
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| schestowitz | "Mom wears idiotic, non-functional women's clothes and hairstyles that get in the way of doing anything other than posing decoratively. Girls pick up after the boys. The world is wide-open to the boys, while the girls are steered into gentle, passive pink pursuits." --Carla Schroder | Feb 20 16:12 |
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| schestowitz | Right on the money BTW: http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009... | Feb 20 16:12 |
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| schestowitz | "In children's literature and entertainment, the main female characters are still delicate little princesses who need to be rescued by handsome princes. Maybe it takes an outside observer with no kids of her own to see how pervasive the old stereotypes and behaviors still are." | Feb 20 16:15 |
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| schestowitz | It's worth a read. Have a look. | Feb 20 16:15 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.p... | Feb 20 16:16 |
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| twitter | "oiaohm: There is one reason why some comanies would have backed OOXML without MS help. Tax. How do you tax free software." LOL, governments would rather keep their citizens money in their own economy rather than exporting it to Redmond. That way they can have a real economy. | Feb 20 16:19 |
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| oiaohm | No different to cigrete company twitter | Feb 20 16:20 |
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| oiaohm | Australia we don't make any. We import the lot of ciggrettes so why does the goverment tollate it. | Feb 20 16:20 |
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| twitter | I agree. M$ is like tobacco. | Feb 20 16:20 |
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| schestowitz | We in the FOSS world can learn a lot from protesters against slavery and misogynists... they bother got their way after long struggles.. and their fruits are not taken for granted and taken away from fascists like Sarko and Bush. | Feb 20 16:20 |
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| *amarsh04__ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-40-178.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 20 16:22 |
| twitter | tobacco should be banned from public places. | Feb 20 16:23 |
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| schestowitz | It is here, except streets | Feb 20 16:23 |
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| twitter | I've read how it cuts heart attacks by half. That's remarkable. | Feb 20 16:24 |
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| schestowitz | People should be allowed to use it if they want to (given the facts about it), but smoking tends to spread to other people. | Feb 20 16:24 |
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| twitter | You don't have the right to blow smoke in my face. | Feb 20 16:24 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, that's the thing | Feb 20 16:24 |
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| twitter | I'd rather be farted on. | Feb 20 16:25 |
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| schestowitz | Like many other things you don't mind if people do them behind closed doors | Feb 20 16:25 |
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| schestowitz | Some people ignore regulations about smoking | Feb 20 16:25 |
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| schestowitz | And it's not easy to tell people to put out their cigarettes, but I do that myself sometimes. | Feb 20 16:25 |
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| twitter | The fart thing can add humor to it. I have never seen a study showing that farts cause cancer. | Feb 20 16:28 |
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| oiaohm | From a goverment point of view children exposed to smoking are more likely to smoke. | Feb 20 16:29 |
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| oiaohm | So behind closed doors is not exacty right. | Feb 20 16:30 |
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| oiaohm | Its not like burning is the only way to get drug out the leave. | Feb 20 16:30 |
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| twitter | Exposing others is always wrong. | Feb 20 16:30 |
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| twitter | Even smoker's clothes harm children. | Feb 20 16:30 |
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| oiaohm | chewing works to a point but it then takes out the persons jaw because it gets the highest ammount. | Feb 20 16:31 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: assuming people smoke in isolation, not in their homes with kids | Feb 20 16:31 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: I used to hate it when my parents' friends came over and smoked (when I was much younger). | Feb 20 16:32 |
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| oiaohm | Even then do you know how long ciggerate smoke stays in a building. | Feb 20 16:32 |
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| twitter | it stays for decades. | Feb 20 16:32 |
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| twitter | unless it is removed. | Feb 20 16:32 |
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| oiaohm | Its about 30 years threw natural decay. | Feb 20 16:33 |
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| twitter | I've scrapped it off windows myself. | Feb 20 16:33 |
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| oiaohm | for the active drug to break down. | Feb 20 16:33 |
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| schestowitz | Windows with small W | Feb 20 16:33 |
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| oiaohm | It kills most stuff that breaks it down. | Feb 20 16:33 |
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| twitter | removing Windows from computers is much like removing tar from windows. | Feb 20 16:33 |
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| schestowitz | That's the beauty of the addictive substance and how it's virally marketed | Feb 20 16:33 |
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| twitter | There's nothing viral about the billboards in my city. | Feb 20 16:34 |
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| schestowitz | Removing Windows requires an exorcist at $300/hr :-) | Feb 20 16:34 |
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| twitter | Or a 25 cent CD. | Feb 20 16:35 |
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| oiaohm | Depends on the size network schestowitz | Feb 20 16:35 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6rqXHX3O48 | Feb 20 16:35 |
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| oiaohm | 1000 machine + start at 300/hr | Feb 20 16:35 |
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| oiaohm | That is a complex prick of a job. | Feb 20 16:35 |
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| oiaohm | Anything else not that bad. | Feb 20 16:35 |
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| twitter | Doing at the OEM level: priceless. | Feb 20 16:35 |
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| oiaohm | I mean a network already running windows twitter | Feb 20 16:36 |
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| oiaohm | Conversion is a pain in ass and mostly done by custom written scripts | Feb 20 16:36 |
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| twitter | I mean freedom, oiaohm. | Feb 20 16:36 |
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| oiaohm | Most of the 300 dollar a hour is paying for the scripts to do extraction from the old network. | Feb 20 16:37 |
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| twitter | right now is a good time to replace those $250 Dells and their crappy old OS. | Feb 20 16:37 |
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| oiaohm | Its simpler and cheeper to build a new network from ground up. | Feb 20 16:38 |
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| twitter | I've done an "upgrade" at a big dumb company. The scripts talked to a GNU/Linux server. The pain was all from non free software. | Feb 20 16:38 |
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