06.15.08

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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 14th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 11:38 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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moparx I leave for a bit and miss a good conversation :( Jun 14 00:09
moparx how’s it going [H]omer? Jun 14 00:09
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[H]omer moparx, hello Jun 14 00:36
moparx :) Jun 14 00:37
[H]omer yes I’m back :) Jun 14 00:37
[H]omer typing one handed is not easy (coffee) Jun 14 00:37
moparx haha Jun 14 00:37
[H]omer I lie in bed with the laptop. I’m lazy that way Jun 14 00:38
moparx :p Jun 14 00:39
[H]omer I think I’ll repost my comments about SLED to BN comments section Jun 14 00:40
[H]omer http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/… Jun 14 01:18
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schestowitz Groklaw has found this: http://wigital.spaces.live.com/bl… Jun 14 06:08
schestowitz “I attended an online class today (given by Microsoft) to help better educate Partners on what Microsoft is doing to help promote interoperability with Open Source, Linux, Java and Standards bodies. Here are my notes with some links from the session…. *Microsoft patenst in these protocols will be made available on RAND terms at very low royalty rates *Covenant not to sue open source developers for development and non-commercial distributio Jun 14 06:08
schestowitz n of implementations of these Open Protocols.” Jun 14 06:08
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tessier http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/09/opinio… Jun 14 07:17
tessier Check out the discussion of MS’s change of heart regarding software patents at the beginning of this article Jun 14 07:17
tessier Very interesting Jun 14 07:18
tessier They used to be anti-software patents back in 1991 Jun 14 07:18
tessier http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/col… Jun 14 07:19
tessier That’s a good read too Jun 14 07:19
schestowitz Did you find it in Don’s Marti’s article (via Linux Today)? Jun 14 07:22
tessier Yeah Jun 14 07:23
schestowitz I quote those bits from Gates quite often. It’s a shame that most people don’t know how Microsoft resisted intellectual monopolies before entering those garden walls. Jun 14 07:23
tessier What do you think of RedHat’s patent troll solution? Jun 14 07:24
tessier I wonder how much RedHat had to pay and how they ever got the troll to agree to such terms. Jun 14 07:24
schestowitz $800,000 Jun 14 07:25
schestowitz I was going to write a post about swpatents later. It’s getting worse, scope-wise. Even human thought and bedheads are seen as patentable. How long before “a method of inhaling oxygen…”? Jun 14 07:26
tessier Most Intelligent Customers Realize Our Software (or Standards) Only Fools Teenagers. Jun 14 07:27
schestowitz <tessier>, watch what I’ve just posted. Good find on Apple (the one I mentioned here yesterday). I needed to copy some text by hand, but the GTK-based PDF viewer was helpful in extracting some (KPDF won’t do and I don’t use Acrobat). Jun 14 09:58
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schestowitz I’m not sure if I’ve just spotted an open source faker. There’s this project called Eucalyptus, which Sam Dean raved about a week ago. It got some bloggers a little excited and while it claims to have adopted a BSD licence, there are warning signs, e.g. discussion about software patents (IP) in the forums. Jun 14 11:24
schestowitz I downloaded the files, studied the site, looked everywhere on the site and even asked questions only to be told: “The goal of the project is to promote open-source community development of cloud computing services and features as well as to foster cloud computing research in the computer science and computational science research communities.” Jun 14 11:24
schestowitz I was also apparently slapped down (modding) by people who gamed Digg for promotion (probably project members). It sounds like casting collaboration as “open source” for marketing purpose. Jun 14 11:25
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schestowitz OBS: PJ has put a couple of articles about the BECTA scam up in news picks (UK media and Glyn): http://www.groklaw.net/newsitems.php . Mark Ballard watches BECTA and Newham like a hawk. At the end of the day, FOSS is winning. We just be patient and vigilant. The UK and US will be last to adopt FOSS. Jun 14 17:51
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Eruaran hi guys Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz wb, <Eruaran>. Anything new? Jun 14 18:01
Eruaran Not really Jun 14 18:01
schestowitz The eet troll came back today. Jun 14 18:02
Eruaran the big market movement to a 64bit platform is starting Jun 14 18:02
Eruaran And people don’t want Vista Jun 14 18:02
Eruaran Some of our clients are Architects and designers Jun 14 18:02
Eruaran I was talking to one of them today… they’ve hit the wall with 32bit OS’s, it just can’t address the memory they need anymore and they wont touch 64bit Vista cause they hate it and everything they use is OpenGL Jun 14 18:04
Eruaran They use 3dsMax a lot so I suggested they have a look at Blender and see if they like it, and if they do they can switch to 64bit Ubuntu Jun 14 18:05
Eruaran Once PC users start looking to 64bit operating systems to overcome memory limitations, its Vista or Linux… And Vista is none to popular Jun 14 18:06
Eruaran *too Jun 14 18:07
schestowitz Interesting. A lot of graphical design is done on GNI/Linux workstations with proprietary software. Jun 14 18:09
schestowitz Hollywood uses it extensively and Novell’s SLED  was picked by a French car maker becase of the 3D capabilities (Compiz at the time). Jun 14 18:10
Eruaran Eric Raymond wrote about big platform shifts Jun 14 18:11
schestowitz Actually, if you require it, I have a lot of references showing that chip design and other form sof modeling (e.g. cars as in the case above) are designated for 64-bit Linux laptops. Late 2006 and early 2007 had loads about it. Jun 14 18:11
Eruaran sure Jun 14 18:11
Eruaran Have a read of this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/worl… Jun 14 18:14
Eruaran I think Eric and Rob just about nailed it with this paper because we’re just starting to see it happen now, right smack in the middle of 2008. Jun 14 18:15
schestowitz I read it briefly (bits of it) when he first published it. It wasn’t well received by all. It was interpreted as playing up Linspire, which he worked for at the time (board member), IIRC. Jun 14 18:17
Eruaran Whatever 64bit platform gains the momentum early on when people are looking for a platform that can make best use of their hardware, thats the one the market will shift to and stay with for a long time. Jun 14 18:19
schestowitz Just looked at it again. It’s an oversimplification, yet a convincing one. The headline gives it all away: world domination. It doesn’t work that way. O/ses that are modular and insular get spread in many different areas. There is no _one_winner. This is not a baseball league. It’s also a road to freedom (not market share). Remember that ESR is synonymous with open source, not FS. Jun 14 18:21
Eruaran yes Jun 14 18:21
schestowitz Also… 64-bit is an issue only when precompiled. Well, in a way. To Linux, these are not issue. Look at Debian’s extensive h/w support. Jun 14 18:22
Eruaran I also don’t agree that 2008 is a ‘hard deadline’, but I do think they are right about when and why major platform shifts occurr. Jun 14 18:22
Eruaran *occur Jun 14 18:23
schestowitz I think there is a lot to be learned from this (I never read it properly), but he uses too much drama (deadline/domination/whatever). Jun 14 18:23
schestowitz Moreover, things like Adobe Flash are a barrier and we no longer look at expansions just in desktops. ARM processor run a lot of the mobile devices that increasingly gain traction. Jun 14 18:24
schestowitz *processors Jun 14 18:24
Eruaran I agree, but when I looked at the history for myself I couldn’t fault their analysis of platform shifts in the past… and yet indeed, the new emerging markets based on ARM and Intel’s Atom are unprecedented… though, Windows is still not getting a huge amount of traction in those markets Jun 14 18:26
schestowitz The deadline as it turns out is less *technical* and more legal. Think along the line of patent terrorism, s/w patents in India/EU, ACTA, DMCA, procurement. Standards come too. There are many factors at play, which is why — again — it seems like an oversimplification. ODF is hugely important. Jun 14 18:26
schestowitz *lines Jun 14 18:26
Eruaran yes Jun 14 18:27
Eruaran I can’t help thinking of the guy I was speaking to today Jun 14 18:27
schestowitz A lot of reporters still concentrate on the wrong issues, in my very humble opinions, and I mentioned those issues only in the *links* that I post in BN. The bigger questions are not technical, but IANAL either. Jun 14 18:27
schestowitz *opinion Jun 14 18:28
Eruaran His attitude was that he didn’t care what OS it was, so long as it worked well for what they needed it for… And Windows doesn’t. Jun 14 18:28
Eruaran I think that after all the huff and puff of monopolists like Microsoft, people will use what works. Jun 14 18:29
schestowitz It’s often imposed from above. But that’s why *governments* must adopt FOSS first, then have it decend to businesses and homes. It’s not as Mark S puts it, where #1 bug is just market share. Another major bug is a corrupt system. Jun 14 18:29
Eruaran yes thats a major issue Jun 14 18:30
schestowitz PJ/Groklaw told Infoworld that Microsoft is the next SCO, but they are likely to use shells to do the job. We shall live and see. Jun 14 18:32
Eruaran Yes, I can’t see Microsoft doing it except through proxies… the bad publicity is something they know is counter productive to their aims Jun 14 18:33
Eruaran But I really believe the world is changing, and even corrupt corporations and politicians can’t hold back that change forever. Jun 14 18:35
schestowitz SCO, Apple… remember how Apple too has ignored Linux for a long time and how it needed to have its feet dragged for ODF support. Microsoft invests in whoever it could use as a weapon. Wealth gives influence. Let me find a quote… Jun 14 18:40
Eruaran Apple still ignores Linux… or at least Ext3 support Jun 14 18:41
schestowitz http://antitrust.slated.org/www…. … “Gathering intelligence on enemy activities is critical to the success of the Slog. We need to know who their allies are and what differences exist between them and their allies (there are always sources of tension between allies), so that we can find ways to split ‘em apart Reading the trade press, lurking on newsgroups, attending conferences, and (above all) Jun 14 18:41
schestowitz talking to ISVs is essential to gathering this intelligence.” Jun 14 18:41
schestowitz Context: that’s Microsoft speaking about the tactic of creating civil wars among rivals. Jun 14 18:42
Eruaran yes Jun 14 18:43
Eruaran But I don’t think they’re as smart about it as they have been in the past Jun 14 18:44
schestowitz How so? Some people reckon that they flame BSD folks against GNU/FSF/Linux Jun 14 18:46
Eruaran the brain drain at Microsoft Jun 14 18:48
Eruaran And look who is CEO Jun 14 18:48
Eruaran =p Jun 14 18:48
schestowitz He is not so stupid. He is just too passionate/envious. He responds to hate, not to rationale. Hubris if you like… Jun 14 18:48
Eruaran Personally I’ve never seen any real issues between the BSD crowd and Linux users Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz OpenBSD? Jun 14 18:49
Eruaran Success for GNU/Linux is good for FreeBSD/OpenBSD etc as well Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz Yes, I like BSDs. They give us a lot like OpenSSH. I think they were angered by Stallman’s remark on firmware. He told he won’t go down that route again. It’s not against Linux that they go but against the GPL. Same thing when GPLv3 came out… Jem Matzan for example attacked… later came Theo de Raadt with bad language. Jun 14 18:51
Eruaran yeah, but I don’t really see those as big issues Jun 14 18:52
Eruaran more a storm in a tea cup Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz No, not quite at all. Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz Yes. Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz No to your first message, yes to the second. :-) Jun 14 18:52
Eruaran Reminds me of what Eben Moglen said Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz Jun 14 18:53
Eruaran that all this looked at over a longer time scale is just static on the airwaves Jun 14 18:53
Eruaran its just low level noise and nothing significant Jun 14 18:53
Eruaran And the flames over BSD v Linux tend to be about technical merits and not given to silliness really… people know when someone is just trolling Jun 14 18:55
schestowitz Oh, speaking of which… Jun 14 18:55
schestowitz Just second ago I watched again Bruce Perens’ response to Nokia. It’s something I write twice about in BN. I trust Ari because a friend of mine knows him and he’s a real Linux guy, but I suppose you know about Microsoft-Nokia. In light of the criticism and *ahem* education (DRM, SIM, swpatents), one might wonder. Jun 14 18:57
Eruaran yes Jun 14 18:58
Eruaran I don’t think I’ve seen Bruce Peren’s response to Nokia Jun 14 18:59
schestowitz Summary of connections (incomplete, off the top of my head): 1) Nokia’s Windows DRM (deal last year), another Microsoft deal, flirt about Windows mobile, the Ogg/HTML5 fiasco (former Microsoft employee in Nokia), swpatent lobby in Europe, Qt takeover. Jun 14 18:59
schestowitz http://technocrat… ( Ari Jaaksi of Nokia Wants to Educate the Linux Community ). IOW, Nokia’s issue may be a non-issue, i.e. a storm in a tea cup. Jun 14 19:01
Eruaran *reads* Jun 14 19:02
Eruaran Yeah I really don’t know about Nokia Jun 14 19:09
schestowitz You were part of the discussion about this the other day, no? Impact on KDE and all… Jun 14 19:10
Eruaran yes thats right Jun 14 19:10
Eruaran What I mean is I really don’t know where Nokia is coming from Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz Koffice alpha9 is going with ODF Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz Strongly so… Jun 14 19:11
Eruaran yes Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz Oops. I meant KOffice 2 Jun 14 19:11
Eruaran I’ve downloaded it but havent installed it yet Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz IBM isn’t much better with their ‘open’ suite. Jun 14 19:12
Eruaran yes Jun 14 19:12
Eruaran I was going to download it one day till I discovered I had to agree to a bunch of licening nonsense and register Jun 14 19:13
schestowitz I spoke about it to a friend the other day. Bits of interest: Jun 14 19:15
schestowitz “IBM is in serious doo-doo as well. They’ll try to change laws, so we must fight. [...] What’s IBM been up to? Smphony. I avoid it like I avoid Opera. [...]  Standards against your freedom and wallet. [...] Well let them. Most ppl will still use OOo in preference anyway. Free and free [...] marbux gave them some slap. I’ll pass you the mail (via E-mail) [...]“ Jun 14 19:15
schestowitz “[...] The IBM people try to sell ice to Eskimos. Such a stupid company. I told them to open it up. [...] What parts of Symphony have they made proprietary? [...] Re: Symphony, not so sure. They take a penguin and dump it in a cage. They are CLUELESS. They need clueless CIOs…. brand name.. can’t get fired for buying IBM… closed = secure… you know the gig :-)” Jun 14 19:15
schestowitz Eventually, like Sun, they realise that there is no such thing as “half pregnant”. You can be /sorta/ open. ODF is good, but ignoring users’ freedom is pulling a Google… or an Oracle. Jun 14 19:17
Eruaran Its disappointing Jun 14 19:17
Eruaran It seemed at one stage that IBM groked free software Jun 14 19:18
schestowitz Don’t worry. Symphony isn’t needed. IBM will soon have another dinosaur in the sandbox… maybe even two (Microsoft for sure and Sun maybe… unless they drop that CDDL and finally /compete/ with Linux on equal footing. See this new one: Jun 14 19:18
schestowitz http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/0… Jun 14 19:19
schestowitz “Not helping its case is the fact Sun put OpenSolaris under its own license – Common Development and Distribution License (CDDL). Sun joins a league of other vendors including Microsoft who have written their own licenses rather than use existing open-source licenses. Debian, by contrast, got to its position in the industry using a spread of different, and existing, licenses. Another complication is the Sun-domination of the OpenSolaris work Jun 14 19:19
schestowitz .” Jun 14 19:19
Eruaran I think with Sun its just a matter of time Jun 14 19:21
schestowitz Eben Moglen: “Everybody is connected to everybody else, all data that can be shared will be shared will be shared: get used to it.” Jun 14 19:22
Eruaran I love listening to Eben Moglen Jun 14 19:22
schestowitz The other day the moguls, diplomats and clueless ISPs began killing (well, blocking) USENET. Why, you ask? Because in a few of them there *might* be child porn. Perfect excuse, eh? Oh noes!!!1 TERRORISM. Jun 14 19:23
Eruaran He described Microsofts patent FUD as the annual, “be very afraid tour”. Jun 14 19:24
schestowitz As if that’ll stop spreading of bad files. Sure. Yes, really! It will. It’s also like the media industry with DRM failures. Now they turn to ACTA gestapo Later on, on the software front, they i’nvent’ swpatents and DMCA, then ‘harmonise’ to spread. Jun 14 19:24
Eruaran The stupidity is stupifying Jun 14 19:25
schestowitz “Greed know no bounds” (Microsoft said this last year) Jun 14 19:25
schestowitz New: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/osta… Jun 14 19:26
Eruaran Have to get going, will be back later Jun 14 19:36
schestowitz OBS: Linux Journal is deteriorating in terms of quality: http://www.linuxjournal.com/cont… Jun 14 19:36
schestowitz Will do. Jun 14 19:36
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schestowitz wb,  PetoKraus. Jun 14 19:52
PetoKraus hello roy Jun 14 19:52
PetoKraus anything new and breaking i should really know about? Jun 14 19:53
schestowitz Not quite. Been nothing disruptive over the weekend. Have you had a second look at that script by any change. :-D Jun 14 19:54
schestowitz *chance? Jun 14 19:54
PetoKraus not really, been offline for most of the time Jun 14 19:55
PetoKraus enjoying the summer, you can imagine. Jun 14 19:55
PetoKraus and the fact how the Dutch own the Euro 2008 so far. Jun 14 19:55
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schestowitz A shame for those whose Web access to the games requires Microsoft XAML. Jun 14 19:57
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schestowitz Just spotted: Palamida teaches us about the dangers of FOSS… http://ostatic.com/164998-blog/interview-… ( Interview: Palamida on the Risks of Undocumented Source Code ). They have a dilemma. They sell services around /risk/. Jun 14 19:57
PetoKraus man the EEEs are crap Jun 14 20:05
PetoKraus there are so many issues with them that give Linux a bad name Jun 14 20:06
PetoKraus i’ll write a blogpost about it in few days Jun 14 20:08
schestowitz I won’t buy one because it’s a derivative of Xandros. Just put something usable on it… about a dozen distros are confirmed to be working on it. Jun 14 20:09
schestowitz Open Source Troller alert (??): “Fonality’s patented hybrid-hosted architecture, call center applications, as well as a rich set of unified communication applications, have helped fuel the company’s success. A hybrid-hosted approach combines the benefits of a hardware PBX with the affordability and ease of use of a hosted offering.” http://www.centredaily.com/business… Jun 14 20:09
PetoKraus schestowitz: it’s not “just put” Jun 14 20:20
PetoKraus you know, when experienced users like me shit their pants bashing and hacking on that thing Jun 14 20:20
PetoKraus and still can’t get WPA encryption working properly Jun 14 20:21
schestowitz Heh. The reviews seem good. I am going to post a couple later. Jun 14 20:22
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alexcs786 well, I subscribed to your rss channel Jun 14 21:02
alexcs786 you guys say things that gives me the creeps about the novell-microsoft deal Jun 14 21:03
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mib_glv104 reading http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/11/sled-no… i don’t understand Jun 14 21:06
mib_glv104 how is it not free software? Jun 14 21:06
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  25. The Committee on Patent Law (PLC) Informed About Overlooked Issues “Which Might Have a Bearing on the Validity of EPO Patents.”

    In a publication circulated or prepared last week the Central Staff Committee (CSC) of the EPO explains a situation never explored in so-called 'media' (the very little that's left of it)



  26. Links 6/12/2021: HowTos and Patents

    Links for the day



  27. IRC Proceedings: Sunday, December 05, 2021

    IRC logs for Sunday, December 05, 2021



  28. Gemini Space/Protocol: Taking IRC Logs to the Next Level

    Tonight we begin the migration to GemText for our daily IRC logs, having already made them available over gemini://



  29. Links 6/12/2021: Gnuastro 0.16 and Linux 5.16 RC4

    Links for the day



  30. Links 5/12/2021: Touchpad Gestures in XWayland

    Links for the day


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