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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 2nd, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 10:49 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

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schestowitz heh. http://www.kansascity.com/105/s… “The mother of the open-source world is the Linux computer operating system fathered by Linus Torvalds in 1991 with help from developers around the world. Linux source code is open to anyone, and people fiddle with it all the time. They then share their improvements with other computer programmers and, by and large, the most elegant improvements take hold.” Sep 02 08:38
schestowitz I’ve sent some polite corrections. Sep 02 08:38
kentma RMS must get more than a little frustrated at the credit for so much of his work going to Linus T, particularly as Mr T. isn’t, apparently, even all that pro-GPL anyway. Sep 02 08:40
schestowitz Yes, it says “open source” above (that too came after Linux). Sep 02 08:40
zoobab http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/pr:september-24… Sep 02 08:41
schestowitz But there are other issues. Linux is  a platform or kernel. Most of the operating system belongs elsewhere. Sep 02 08:41
schestowitz Thanks, zoobab Sep 02 08:41
kentma computer software is now something between a creeper plant like a strawberry, and an onion in layering. Sep 02 08:43
kentma The kernel sits in the middle of it all, of course, but there are layers and layers around it before anything really sees the light of day. Sep 02 08:44
schestowitz BSDs use a lot of GPL software. Even (Open)Solaris… Sep 02 08:45
schestowitz You could happily run a machine with GNOME or KDE and without Linux. That would feel pretty much the same. The same cannot be said about stripping everything but the kernel. Sep 02 08:46
kentma This is the big advantage of maximal layering and open-source (as opposed to open APIs, which do not work so well). Sep 02 08:46
kentma The better the layering is, the easier it is to change eg., the kernel. Sep 02 08:47
kentma Aside from anything else, it’s worth noting that Linux is not just one kernel, in fact, it’s been hundreds of different kernels over the years. Sep 02 08:47
kentma The fact that they can be shared by much of the same software speaks volumes for the advantages of open libc and so on. Sep 02 08:48
schestowitz Linux has a good pool of drivers. Sep 02 08:48
schestowitz It’s still monolithic. Sep 02 08:48
kentma the kernel itself is partially monolithic, partially modular.  It will probably need a re-design in due course, in order to look more like the “hurd”, because it will, eventually, be unmaintainable, I think.  It might be enough to have more structure around the module layer. Sep 02 08:49
schestowitz Yet it’s very amusing how Microsoft calls “Linux” the #1 rival when it actually means to say “Free software (GPL)”, such as the Ubuntu system or Red Hat. Sep 02 08:49
kentma agreed!  :-) Sep 02 08:50
schestowitz This one is new: http://www.gnu.org/fry/happy-birthday-to-gnu.html   Fry explains the GNU system. Microsoft and Apple try to downplay or hide the philosophy behind that other system, which is _very_ different by nature. The simplification serves them. Sep 02 08:51
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PetoKraus there’s no de Icaza in the titles ;) Sep 02 09:41
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trmanco http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s… Sep 02 10:29
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schestowitz Good headline: The Beginning of the End for the ISO? : http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolbox/open-s… Sep 02 13:18
*benJIman wonders if schestowitz saw http://dev-loki.blogspot.com/2008/09/about… Sep 02 13:19
benJIman ‘Believe it or not, we’re not “Novell shills”‘ Sep 02 13:19
schestowitz Loki is not impartial. Sep 02 13:21
schestowitz “Actually, after talking to Jeff Jaffee (Novell’s CTO)…” Blah, blah, blah… very independent. Sep 02 13:22
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schestowitz http://commit-digest.org/issues/2008-08-31/ . No Mono. :-) Sep 02 15:50
benJIman schestowitz: Jeff came to talk to openSUSE people last week. Sep 02 15:53
schestowitz Waugh? Sep 02 15:54
benJIman Jaffe. Sep 02 15:54
schestowitz He’s responsible for that horrid deal, y’know? Sep 02 15:54
benJIman Well one of those, he is CTO. Sep 02 15:56
schestowitz Yes, but he participated more on this based on what i could gather (I read many Novell (blogs). Do you happen to know if he even /uses/ Free software? Sep 02 16:02
benJIman I do not know. Sep 02 16:05
benJIman I was not in this particular meeting btw. Sep 02 16:06
schestowitz For a technical officer, that’s just embarrassing. He doesn’t ‘get’ what his company purports to be selling. Sep 02 16:06
benJIman Why is it embarrassing that I do not know? Sep 02 16:06
benJIman I think it’s more likely than not that he uses SLED etc, but wouldn’t like to say. Sep 02 16:07
schestowitz Reminds me of all those ‘open source’ bloggers who do Webcasts that are not available to anything but 2 non-Free platforms. Sep 02 16:07
schestowitz Let me do some searching on his blog. :-) Sep 02 16:08
schestowitz Volkers uses a Mac. Sep 02 16:08
benJIman I’m not convinced that he writes his blog. Sep 02 16:08
benJIman He managed to post a comment in the third person on openSUSE news ^_^. Sep 02 16:08
schestowitz *gasp* He’s from IBM. http://www.infoworld.com/article/05… Sep 02 16:09
schestowitz Just like Ron Sep 02 16:09
schestowitz The plot thickens. [sarcasm /] Sep 02 16:10
benJIman O_o Sep 02 16:24
schestowitz I’ll write something shortly. Sep 02 16:25
benJIman What Pascal wrote on his blog was accurate btw. Sep 02 16:26
schestowitz Which part? Sep 02 16:27
benJIman All of it. Sep 02 16:27
schestowitz I don’t want to quote wrong things. :-) Sep 02 16:27
benJIman Particularly even the Novell employees in the openSUSE community and board are not pressured by Novell upper management into doing stuff, which is an impression you seem to have. Sep 02 16:27
schestowitz No, not quite. Sep 02 16:28
schestowitz It is in their interest to see Novell succeed Sep 02 16:28
schestowitz There’s no trust when there’s money on the table (Lessig) and that’s illustrated by the damage of money inside Debian (2006-2007) Sep 02 16:28
benJIman It is also in their interest to see openSUSE succeed. Sep 02 16:29
schestowitz Yes, but the two are related. Sep 02 16:29
benJIman Even novell upper management know that. Sep 02 16:29
schestowitz There’s money at the top, so there’s no trust where Novell’s decisions are involved. For similar reasons, I rejected Shane’s offer to let me add my AdSense to the site. I won’t write this for money. Sep 02 16:30
benJIman What do you mean by trust in this context. Sep 02 16:31
benJIman Money is only one motivating factor. Sep 02 16:31
benJIman Are you suggesting you are impartial because you are not paid for what you write? Sep 02 16:32
schestowitz To take the points in turn: 1) Trust in this context  is a position where personal gain doesn’t surpass the group’s benefit; 2) Money is immediate reward; there are others like bribes with gifts (Novell did this too); 3) I don’t write provocatively for gain (e.g. advertising). I write things as I see them. Sep 02 16:34
benJIman I’m afraid I don’t understand your first point. Sep 02 16:35
benJIman Speaking of Jeff – seems he’s just blogged about the microsoft agreement. Sep 02 16:36
benJIman http://www.novell.com/ctoblog/?p=84 Sep 02 16:36
schestowitz re: first point… Novell is a good example at a corporate level. For immediate gain (Microsoft ‘compensation money’) it sold GNU/Linux out. Sep 02 16:38
schestowitz Yes, seen it, haven’t read it yet (in my RSS feeds to be read later) Sep 02 16:38
benJIman Your opinion. Sep 02 16:39
schestowitz Novell keeps changing its story. Sep 02 16:39
schestowitz http://news.cnet.com/1606-2_3-6132143.html (Jeff on patents) Sep 02 16:40
*benJIman wonders whether schestowitz reads planetsuse. Sep 02 16:49
*schestowitz thinks desktop-side aggregators are more suitable for mass-handling Sep 02 16:50
benJIman The planets do have feeds, and planet maintainers do work for you of finding new relavant feeds to add. Sep 02 16:51
*tessier_ loves his rss reader Sep 02 16:52
schestowitz Which one, tessier_ ? Sep 02 16:52
tessier_ It has totally changed how I get news on the net over the last couple of years. Sep 02 16:52
tessier_ I use sage. Sep 02 16:52
*schestowitz looks Sep 02 16:52
tessier_ It’s handy to have it built into the web browser since they are all just websites anyway. Sep 02 16:52
schestowitz Looks yummy. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/02/agai… Sep 02 16:53
schestowitz Oops. Wrong paste. http://sage.mozdev.org/install/ Sep 02 16:53
benJIman tessier_: Does sage remove duplicates? Sep 02 16:54
benJIman e.g. if you get the same blog from multiple planet feeds. Sep 02 16:54
tessier_ Hrmm…I doubt it. I’ve never noticed it as a problem. I think sage works a bit different from most rss readers. Sep 02 16:55
tessier_ I tried using google’s reader but didn’t like it so much. Also don’t like storing all of my feeds in google. Sep 02 16:55
schestowitz I found some nice tricks in Thunderbird.. for handling similar topics efficiently. Sep 02 16:55
tessier_ Such as? I’ve been debating moving back to mutt. Sep 02 16:57
tessier_ I need to learn some Thunderbird keyboard shortcuts or something. Sep 02 16:58
schestowitz tessier_: TB has some good plugins, but for feeds, the value of TB is in its handling of RSS items as mail, so it can be tagged, combined, searched/filtered based on subject line, can have “delete duplicate” applied to it based on custom criteria… I was using RSSOwl before TB. I didn’t try many different wares. Sep 02 17:21
tessier_ schestowitz: You have a feed reader plugin for TB? Sep 02 17:29
schestowitz It’s built in since 1.5 Sep 02 17:29
schestowitz Slightly buggy in 2.0, but just slightly. Sep 02 17:30
tessier_ ah…I’ll have to check that out. Sep 02 17:30
schestowitz Novell turns them all away: http://weblog.infoworld.com/virtualization/archives… Sep 02 18:14
ReverseGTR so you think this is a sign that Novell is a sinking ship? Sep 02 19:00
ReverseGTR an interesting trend now is that there is a larger push towards virtual machine development Sep 02 19:01
schestowitz There are more directors leaving. Sep 02 19:01
tessier_ ReverseGTR: Novell has many execs. A couple leaving doesn’t mean much. Sep 02 19:02
schestowitz I don’t know when this last one left, but I don’t think it’s related to the latest results. Sep 02 19:02
schestowitz I will try to show in a post that it’s part of the trend (Microsoft has a similar deflation and it lost about $100 billion in value) Sep 02 19:02
schestowitz tessier_: true, there are many, but quite a lot seem to be leaving. Red Hat ain’t doing brilliantly, either. Sep 02 19:03
ReverseGTR tessier_: well, for such a relatively small company compared to the titans of M$, Oracle and Sun this must be worse sign then how it is happening to those others Sep 02 19:04
tessier_ ReverseGTR: Still a very big company for two execs leaving to be an indicator of anything. Sep 02 19:06
schestowitz The editor I wrote for in the past (not related to blogs) did a lousy interview with the scum at Microsoft. Jose seems to have rebutted: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_s… Sep 02 19:07
schestowitz tessier_: how many ship-jumping directors does it take for a company worth $2.3 billion in order for it to be statistically meaningful? Sep 02 19:08
ReverseGTR schestowitz: there is nothing odd about M$’s answer they just want to take open sourcecode, reverse engineer alittle, add a few features and declare it proprietary :D Sep 02 19:09
tessier_ schestowitz: How many directors do they have in that company? Sep 02 19:10
ReverseGTR tessier_: probably not as many as the afformentioned Sep 02 19:11
schestowitz AD, OOXML, XAML… you know the drill…http://www.blendernation.com/2008/05/13/micr… Sep 02 19:11
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schestowitz tessier_: is there a way to find this out? Sep 02 19:12
tessier_ schestowitz: No idea. But it would seen to be necessary to put their departures into context. Sep 02 19:12
schestowitz Context: they came into a new company and did’t like what they saw. Sep 02 19:13
schestowitz http://www.google.com/search?sourc… Sep 02 19:13
ReverseGTR btw, Google’s Chrome browser came out today and if anyone is interested in the link http://tools.google.com/chrome . I hope this is not considered spamming Sep 02 19:22
schestowitz Ha! ‘Microsoft’s’ ZDNet give Novell a blog: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community/ Sep 02 19:22
tessier_ Chrome looks awesome Sep 02 19:24
tessier_ I just read their little comic book about it Sep 02 19:24
tessier_ Excellent explanation Sep 02 19:24
tessier_ I’m really looking forward to trying it. Sep 02 19:24
tessier_ Glad to see a worthy free competitor to Firefox. Hopefully they will continue to sponge ideas off of each other. Sep 02 19:24
schestowitz ReverseGTR: see http://blogs.computerworld.com/the_real_r… Sep 02 19:24
ReverseGTR tessier_: at least Google is more forthcoming about it, even though how they treated Android developers leaves much to be desired Sep 02 19:25
tessier_ The whole one-process-per-tab idea is brilliant and long overdue. Sep 02 19:25
tessier_ Also I like the new security model and sandboxing. Sep 02 19:25
tessier_ I always have a zillion tabs open. Sep 02 19:25
schestowitz Multiple desktops are useful too. Sep 02 19:26
tessier_ And I have two cores now and will probably have least 4 in my next machine. Sep 02 19:26
schestowitz You can have mutiple Web browser windows. Sep 02 19:26
ReverseGTR schestowitz: sure but if I understand what you are getting at most people like to organize a program or two for each desktop Sep 02 19:28
schestowitz Lots of links here: http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/30066 Sep 02 19:29
tessier_ schestowitz: Nice article on why they are really making chrome and I fully agree. Sep 02 19:33
schestowitz ReverseGTR: I don’t put the same program on mutiple desktops, but I used a form of analogy. There are also tabbed windows managers for X/GNU. Sep 02 19:35
schestowitz *window Sep 02 19:35
ReverseGTR schestowitz: alright, my misunderstanding Sep 02 19:36
schestowitz Desktop metaphors are very physical. More abstract desktops would probably improve productivity. Sep 02 19:37
ReverseGTR schestowitz: but do the current kernels and APIs are able to truely permit that? Sep 02 19:40
schestowitz Yes, there are hooks for input/output that just send back signals. Multi-touch is coming soon to the mainline kernel. Here’s an example: We look at Web *pages* (page as in a book), but it doesn’t need to be constrained. I know academics who still store pages like they used to organise references lists, but that’s not useful. Tagging and linking is better. Sep 02 19:41
ReverseGTR schestowitz: but what if those links are dead? ;) Sep 02 19:48
schestowitz They never die. I have scripts. :-) Sep 02 19:49
ReverseGTR schestowitz: but once the links are down the credibility of the source goes with it, data on physical storage will always have a use Sep 02 19:50
schestowitz While you can’t show the original, you can provide a snippet (fair use). Sep 02 19:51
ReverseGTR schestowitz: but it sadly will not be enough to hold up in current legal affairs if you want to get into that. Sep 02 19:51
schestowitz Yes, that I know. Sep 02 19:53
schestowitz What’s the alternative? Sep 02 19:53
schestowitz I ask because I need to know (tone can’t be conveyed in text) Sep 02 19:53
ReverseGTR schestowitz: Contacts, keeping in touch with those you are obtaining the source from Sep 02 19:54
schestowitz I have the names of authors. Sep 02 19:54
schestowitz There’s also IA (Internet Archive) Sep 02 19:54
ReverseGTR schestowitz: but you also need to show that the authors endorse the use of their work in your point of view Sep 02 19:54
ReverseGTR schestowitz: why and what do you want to know about the legalities of keeping credible sources? Sep 02 19:55
schestowitz Is there a better option really?Even a tape recording can be faked. Sep 02 19:57
ReverseGTR schestowitz: you do not have to go as far as a tape recording but just some typed proof that the author you sourced your article from is aware of the work you did. So if anyone contacts them to ask about its validity. Sep 02 19:58
ReverseGTR schestowitz: what do you want to know about this for? Sep 02 19:59
schestowitz Links break sometimes. Sep 02 20:01
schestowitz Boycott Microsoft had all its link break some weeks/months ago. Sep 02 20:02
schestowitz In case I wish to send someone a reference to it, then I typically have just the snippets. In order for articles to be used against someone (I saw this happening in private E-mails), this could be important. Sep 02 20:02
ReverseGTR schestowitz: if you can try to get in touch with the author of the articles if you can and find out if there are alternate urls Sep 02 20:02
schestowitz The word which is contained in article is often less relevant than exact quotes and names of people, who can be approached and brought o court for a testimony. IANAL. Sep 02 20:03
ReverseGTR maybe the autor blogs for multiple websites and posts the same articles on either Sep 02 20:03
ReverseGTR schestowitz: who are you preparing to sue? Sep 02 20:04
schestowitz That’s true. Sep 02 20:04
schestowitz I recently managed to hunt down this one (with help of a friend): http://etheridge.ca/articles/e… Sep 02 20:04
schestowitz “For instance, Microsoft, the world’s most valuable company, declared a profit of $4.5 billion in 1998; when the cost of options awarded that year, plus the change in the value of outstanding options, is deducted, the firm made a loss of $18 billion, according to Smithers.” Sep 02 20:05
schestowitz ReverseGTR: no, I’m not suing anyone. Sep 02 20:05
schestowitz If anything, I’m in a position where I need to be prepared to defend what I type (not necessarily for legal reasons at all. Sep 02 20:05
ReverseGTR schestowitz: a good model to use as refference is how well maintained and unbiased wikis work. Ecspecially those on medical science and technology Sep 02 20:06
schestowitz Are you suggesting setting up Wikis too (I know you mean something different, but what if)? Sep 02 20:08
ReverseGTR schestowitz: if they involve specific court cases then there is a less likely chance they would be taken down. But then you would need plenty of references from not only authors but from the courthouse where it was tried. Sometimes you can look up when a trial took place on a courthouse’s website. Sep 02 20:09
ReverseGTR I meant less likely chance they would be taken down Sep 02 20:10
ReverseGTR Wikipedia doesn’t take kindly to articles that may display a bias Sep 02 20:10
schestowitz ReverseGTR: bias is relative. Sep 02 20:10
ReverseGTR also once you create a wiki always saved the source you used or created because people can always have a chance at editing it Sep 02 20:11
schestowitz ReverseGTR: I know about attitude towards weasel words, but there’s lots of bias there. Either way, I hate Wikis. I have 3 of them (one is private) and the other two are spammed to hell. I’ve spammed more time cleaning them over the years than I did write in them. Sep 02 20:12
schestowitz *spent more time Sep 02 20:12
ReverseGTR schestowitz: I also remember a website that immitated wikipedia but is for posting articles for imoral activies by companies and governments Sep 02 20:14
ReverseGTR I remember a company through a court in California tried to take it down or block the url in the US Sep 02 20:14
schestowitz ReverseGTR: Source Watch is one example. Sep 02 20:15
schestowitz Wikipedia’s articles on the same lobbying arms SW covers are restrained and watered down Sep 02 20:15
schestowitz http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/20… Sep 02 20:16
ReverseGTR schestowitz: I think you have a good chance of defending yourself against anything written aside from an army of lawyers :) Sep 02 20:16
ReverseGTR yea thats the website, Wikileaks Sep 02 20:17
schestowitz ReverseGTR: care to explain/elaborate? Sep 02 20:18
schestowitz I hope you aren’t referring to the legal /mud’ SCO gave PJ. Sep 02 20:18
ReverseGTR schestowitz: what do you mean? Sep 02 20:19
ReverseGTR schestowitz: I was just stating wikileaks.org is a good website to post information without fear of spamming Sep 02 20:19
schestowitz “defending yourself against anything written aside from an army of lawyers” Sep 02 20:19
schestowitz Frivolous suits? Sep 02 20:19
schestowitz I guess it boils down to the word “You” Sep 02 20:20
ReverseGTR schestowitz: oh, I was just saying lawyers are honed in the skill of testifying against the facts, it is what they were trained and passed an exam to do in most cases Sep 02 20:20
ReverseGTR I remember I had to plead guilty in a case I was completely sure a police officer had no proof I was speeding in because I knew the lawyer would figure out a way to twist my motives to the judge as though as I am covering up something. So I plead guilty to paying $439 for a “Careless Driving” ticket instead of testifying for a speeding ticket where they claimed on the careless driving ticket that I was going 84 in a 65mph zone Sep 02 20:22
ReverseGTR well I didn’t have to, but since I was not as well versed as the Procecutioner I would have had a really hard time convincing the judge otherwise Sep 02 20:22
ReverseGTR at the time my main motive was to avoid getting points on my license Sep 02 20:24
schestowitz I never got a ticket myself, but I’m still young…:-S Sep 02 20:26
ReverseGTR schestowitz: just watch what comes up behind you and move over to the next lane if possible Sep 02 20:27
schestowitz This doesn’t stop the munchkins from spreading libel, e.g. http://help.lockergnome.com/linux/NEWS-R… (they put this lie all over the place) Sep 02 20:27
ReverseGTR the gaurdian link is dead ;) Sep 02 20:28
schestowitz Heh. That’s intentional… wha t the trolls want. Sep 02 20:29
ReverseGTR why is a seemingly indivisual willing to attempt a smear compaign against you. That is even too far flung for most trolls :P Sep 02 20:30
schestowitz http://www.google.com/search?sourc… Sep 02 20:32
schestowitz They have all sort of lies that they repeat over and over Goebbels style and hoping that something will stick with an innocent and naive reader. Sep 02 20:33
ReverseGTR schestowitz: its funny and at the same time impressive that you are getting a lot of attention Sep 02 20:34
ReverseGTR I didn’t know that you blogged about your sex change Sep 02 20:35
schestowitz :-| It’s a lie, you know. Sep 02 20:35
ReverseGTR and you said it on a Google board on Creatism too, that takes balls which you now physically lack ;) Sep 02 20:36
schestowitz The nastier ones they did are letters to my bosses and colleagues, with copies posted under pseudonyms publicly. Also filled with libel and intended to get me in trouble. That’s what got me into studying Microsoft’s Slog Culture, back in 2006ish. Sep 02 20:37
ReverseGTR schestowitz: maybe they secretly admire your work and want to increase your work ethic on the issue? Sep 02 20:37
schestowitz How so? What do you mean? Sep 02 20:39
schestowitz BTW, I’ve just checked USENET. The Munch ins are now citing the CNET FUD about Brazil. That was predictable. I wrote about it twice last week. Microsoft plants poison, then cites it everywhere. Sep 02 20:39
ReverseGTR schestowitz: just twisted logic that these smear people really just want you to post more about Novell and Microsoft’s immoral tactics by posing as advocates or trying to limit your other opporutinities in life so you focus more on this Sep 02 20:39
schestowitz Well, effectively that’s true. Sep 02 20:40
schestowitz If it were not for the smears, I would probably just go into industry and make money; instead, I choose to find answar to something which I feel I’m close to cracking. Sep 02 20:40
schestowitz *answers Sep 02 20:40
ReverseGTR schestowitz: do what you feel is right, but remember sometimes it is not always good for you Sep 02 20:42
schestowitz In what sense? Sep 02 20:42
ReverseGTR schestowitz: well Vincent Vango kept on painting even though the quest to find the best place as well as commiting himself to it drove him to depression and eventually suicide. But it created some of the most historical work in the western world for generations to come Sep 02 20:43
schestowitz Well, that’s an odd comparison. Van Gogh? Sep 02 20:46
schestowitz Van Gogh was not understood at his time. The same cannot be said about a collaborative culture and Free software, which gradually thrives more and more. Sep 02 20:48
ReverseGTR he was understood by some people, but other still were afraid of him or just didn’t appretiate what a fresh new style of art may bring Sep 02 20:50
ReverseGTR what I am stating is sometimes people go beyond what they can tolerate if they feel they are accomplishing something that is not only very important to them but everyone around too Sep 02 20:51
schestowitz Still, to suggest a deficiency makes an odd comparison. Sep 02 20:51
schestowitz There are those too. Sep 02 20:52
schestowitz Just watch RMS. Sep 02 20:52
schestowitz PJ hasn’t taken a vacation in years. Sep 02 20:52
ReverseGTR schestowitz:  I am not familiar enough with this channel and community to know who or what PJ is Sep 02 20:59
tessier_ Vincent Vango? Sep 02 21:00
tessier_ RMS is amazing. Far more benevolent than anyone else in the software business. Sep 02 21:01
ReverseGTR tessier_: I didn’t know outright how to spell his name, alright Sep 02 21:01
ReverseGTR tessier_: when you create stuff that aids in climate watch for natural distasters and help charities better coordinate their efforts its no wonder Sep 02 21:03
schestowitz RMS had a hard life, but he accomplished so much. Sep 02 21:03
schestowitz There would be no (successful) Linux without him, yet Linux steals all the credit from him and his movement (FSF, GNU). Sep 02 21:03
ReverseGTR schestowitz: they just hate to admit they owe their ways to a business Sep 02 21:04
schestowitz Who, GNU? Sep 02 21:04
ReverseGTR schestowitz: RMS Sep 02 21:04
tessier_ schestowitz: I’m not such a big fan of whining about Linux stealin his credit. Sep 02 21:04
schestowitz Me neither. It looks petty. Sep 02 21:04
schestowitz I can see where hs’s coming from, but it’s not the name/crdit he’s against. Sep 02 21:05
tessier_ The FSF needs to hire a really hot, smart, and well spoken chick to tour instead of RMS. Sep 02 21:05
ReverseGTR schestowitz: also the GNU is a legal document in all shape and form Sep 02 21:05
tessier_ I bet someone like that could solicit enough donations to pay her exorbitant salary. Sep 02 21:05
schestowitz He rightly has been arguing quite recently that people inherit a different philosophy from Linux Foundation et al. Sep 02 21:05
tessier_ And spread GNU the way it should be spread. Sep 02 21:05
tessier_ She could walk around with an ear piece going back to Stallman like Bush has with Karl Rove. Sep 02 21:05
tessier_ He can put the words into her mouth and she can flash cleavage. Sep 02 21:06
schestowitz Novell is muchly related to this because the press wants to misunderstand critics and the ‘market share’-obsessed fail to realise the dangers of non-Free s/w Sep 02 21:06
ReverseGTR tessier: why don’t they host it at skin joints while they’re at it Sep 02 21:06
tessier_ I can see where he is coming from also btw. I just wish he would stop losing converts over it. Sep 02 21:06
schestowitz See this new article: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osr… Sep 02 21:06
tessier_ ReverseGTR: If that’s where real business is done, sure. Sep 02 21:06
schestowitz First they take away the freedom with ‘open source’ and now it’s stuff like the Fiundation and Linus forgetting where he came for (assuming he chose the GPL not just for popularity) Sep 02 21:08
schestowitz Watch the following old video… around 30mins or 46mins, IIRC… Sep 02 21:09
schestowitz http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVTWCPoUt8w Sep 02 21:09
schestowitz Sorry for blabbering about it, but the point shown here is that he may have just used  the GNU GPL (he didn’t use it at the very start) to attract more labour. Sep 02 21:10
tessier_ I do agree with talking about Free Software instead of Open Source software. It’s just a real shame that it is such a hard sell. Sep 02 21:13
tessier_ We really need someone to hire a marketing company to build a brand around Free (As In Freedom) Software Sep 02 21:14
tessier_ If Coke can sell us sugarwater that costs nothing to produce surely someone can get us to use stuff for free. Sep 02 21:14
ReverseGTR but Coca Cola was not origonally sugar water, it just became more watered down over time Sep 02 21:14
tessier_ But that’s what it is now and we still buy it and they still spends many millions on successfully marketing it. Sep 02 21:15
schestowitz That’s true. Sep 02 21:15
ReverseGTR then shame on those who still buy it Sep 02 21:15
schestowitz tessier_: I don’t deal with the ‘marketing’ side although I learn about the good news and post it to COLA. Sep 02 21:15
schestowitz My areas of greater knowledge is probably sources of friction against Free software and that’s what I focus on now. Sep 02 21:16
schestowitz As long as my savings in the bank last and I enjoy this hobby, I intend to continue. I can get around to things like family later on. Sep 02 21:16
tessier_ schestowitz: That’s part of marketing. You are just some of the very small amount of free marketing labor that the FSF/FOSS/Linux/GNU/whoever have that they didn’t even ask for. Sep 02 21:17
schestowitz I’m not alone though. I’ve been in regular touch with Pj since early 2006. Sep 02 21:18
schestowitz She too is doing this on a low budget and she enjoys it now. Sep 02 21:18
ReverseGTR mind giving me a link to her blog, I never knew about it until now Sep 02 21:25
schestowitz Who? PJ? Sep 02 21:25
schestowitz Mary Lou Jespen (did I remember that right?) almost died working for a cause she believed in: OLPC. She’s now in a startup. Sep 02 21:25
tessier_ ReverseGTR: You don’t know who PJ is? Wow. Sep 02 21:26
tessier_ ReverseGTR: groklaw.net Sep 02 21:26
tessier_ ReverseGTR: She’s been famous in the FOSS community for a good 4 years now. Sep 02 21:26
ReverseGTR tessier_: I guess you can say  I am looking into the open source community more slowly then others would Sep 02 21:29
schestowitz Groklaw is a more common identity for Pam Sep 02 21:30
ReverseGTR schestowitz: I am not really good with names or ecspecially identifying the whos who of communities Sep 02 21:32
schestowitz That’s fine. Happens to all of us. I didn’t know T’so when he joined the LF Sep 02 21:33
schestowitz BTW, a good example of people going over the edge is probably Reiser. Sep 02 21:34
schestowitz I bet it drove him nuts that Reiser couldn’t keep up with other FSes. SUSE, his bigger fan, was going to drop his software. Sep 02 21:34
tessier_ Theodore T’so has been a big filesystem guy and kernel contributor for a very long time. Sep 02 21:35
tessier_ Reiser was a nut from the beginning. Sep 02 21:35
tessier_ His odd personality kept his fs from succeeding, not the other way around. Sep 02 21:35
tessier_ I talked to Hans Reiser first around 1999. Sep 02 21:36
tessier_ I arranged for MP3.com to sponsor development of the journaling in reiserfs because we needed a journaled fs for Linux that didn’t cost an arm and a leg.. Even back then he was a bit odd. Sep 02 21:36
tessier_ We were having to tolerate multi-day fsck’s or spend $50k on an E250 with Veritas Foundation Suite without reiserfs. Sep 02 21:37
schestowitz Interesting. Sep 02 21:38
schestowitz Bruce Perens met his two and I heard other personal account, but none suggested he was odd. Sep 02 21:38
tessier_ You can’t go to college at 16, import a russian wife, engage in bondage and wife swapping or whatever with this other dude who claimed to have killed someone, etc. etc. and be “average”. Sep 02 21:43
ReverseGTR is that what he said he did? Sep 02 21:44
tessier_ Is what what who said who did? Sep 02 21:45
ReverseGTR college at 16 while importing a bride who was married to another dude and then killing her Sep 02 21:46
schestowitz I read about him going to college early. Sep 02 21:46
schestowitz The rest is new to me. Sep 02 21:46
ReverseGTR lol, do you really think its all true? Sep 02 21:47
tessier_ That’s all true Sep 02 21:48
tessier_ It was his imported Russian bride who he killed Sep 02 21:48
tessier_ The stuff about Sean Sturgeon or whatever is well documented in court transcripts and various articles on the net. Sep 02 21:48
tessier_ The dude claimed he had killed 6 people or something like that while on the stand. Sep 02 21:48
tessier_ But that he didn’t kill Nina Sep 02 21:48
schestowitz I hard that too. Sep 02 21:49
schestowitz *heard Sep 02 21:49
tessier_ Outsourcing so much of his filesystem work to Russia was a bad move too. Sep 02 21:49
schestowitz I never heard about the “imported” bit though. Nina seems like a sophisticated woman. Why “import”? Sep 02 21:49
tessier_ But he had to pay people to do the work because he wasn’t the easiest person to work with. Sep 02 21:50
tessier_ schestowitz: He met her in Russia where she was a nurse. I think through a matchmaking service. Sep 02 21:50
schestowitz I heard the kids might go to Russia. Sep 02 21:50
ReverseGTR is he being deported? Sep 02 21:50
tessier_ (Remember, Nina Reiser advertised herself in a Russian mail-order bride catalog.) – http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2… Sep 02 21:51
tessier_ The kids are already in Russia Sep 02 21:51
tessier_ And have been for a year or two. Sep 02 21:51
trmanco http://www.stefanoforenza.com/?p=137 Sep 02 21:51
schestowitz BTW, I never wrote about this saga in public because it’s an embarrassment to Linux and I resent writers who try to associate this with code. Sep 02 21:51
tessier_ schestowitz: I agree and I think you did the right thing on that one. Sep 02 21:51
schestowitz The Munchkins used this nonetheless. Sep 02 21:52
schestowitz Give the Win-trolls a finger and they’ll bite off the hand. Sep 02 21:52
tessier_ 2:55 p.m The discussion centers on him dating Russian women. He says he dated some 50 of them between 1993 and1996. Sep 02 21:52
tessier_ Wow. You go Hans! Sep 02 21:53
ReverseGTR I wonder if anyone working for M$ choked a b*ch or few? Sep 02 21:53
ReverseGTR tessier_: it takes guts to date Russians Sep 02 21:54
tessier_ ReverseGTR: They gotta. But all of their software is anonymously authored. Sep 02 21:54
ReverseGTR is there any problem to it being as long as the work is not proven to be directly based on any proprietary or otherwised personally patented work? Sep 02 21:55
schestowitz ReverseGTR: I have some stories about crime in Redmond. Sep 02 21:57
tessier_ schestowitz: But as with reiser, probably best not to make hay of them. They don’t relate much to the software anyhow. Sep 02 21:58
schestowitz Microsoft has also had at least one practising (I think) pedophile caught. Sep 02 21:58
tessier_ Practicing? I would think most folks could get it right the first time. Sep 02 21:58
schestowitz You mean the typo? Sep 02 22:00
schestowitz I type fast. Sep 02 22:00
tessier_ No, not the typo. :) Sep 02 22:01
tessier_ I was making a bad joke about needing to practice to be a pedophile. Sep 02 22:01
tessier_ Chrome is only available as a beta for Windows?! WTF? Sep 02 22:02
tessier_ Google Chrome for Linux is in development and a team of engineers is working hard to bring it to you as soon as possible. Sep 02 22:03
tessier_ Please enter your email address below and we’ll let you know when it’s released. Sep 02 22:03
tessier_ Ah. I bet it won’t be long. Sep 02 22:03
*tessier_ sign sup Sep 02 22:03
ReverseGTR tessier_: I know strange, but sensable since most of the features would probably be harder to implement on all platforms of Linux. Sep 02 22:03
tessier_ Most of the features would be easier to implement on Linux I would think. Or do you mean packaging for all of the different distros? Sep 02 22:03
ReverseGTR if they make one for 32bit x86, 64bit advocates will complain why there isn’t any, then if it is 32 as well as 64bit x86 compatible people will complain about lack of PPC and other RISC development Sep 02 22:04
ReverseGTR it will be like Adobe Flash Sep 02 22:04
ReverseGTR tessier_: I bet they are saving the Linux release for Android’s rollout Sep 02 22:04
schestowitz tessier_: yes, I saw this earlier (chrome). Same with Macs. Sep 02 22:05
schestowitz Chris DiBona got some flak from me and others and he admits that Windows releases are a priority at Google. Sep 02 22:05
schestowitz They also do some ActiveX stuff and other Windows-only junk,  which I complained about (and I was not alone). They even embrace Flash, which is ironic because it works against them. Sep 02 22:06
tessier_ I used to be pretty skeptical of browser based applications replacing the desktop. But Chrome might change that. Sep 02 22:06
ReverseGTR tessier_: I just don’t want to lose any more controll over my computer Sep 02 22:06
tessier_ If they pushed youtube/google video towards something else I bet they could supplant flash. Sep 02 22:07
tessier_ ReverseGTR: I agree completely. Sep 02 22:07
schestowitz tessier_: I only use about 3 apps on my desktop. The browser is one of them. scehstowitz,com has lots of software on it (and privacy) Sep 02 22:07
tessier_ I use firefox, thunderbird, pidgin, xchat, and xterm. That’s pretty much it. Occasionally (but rarely) a few other things. But those are my constantly open apps. Sep 02 22:08
*JohnnyUtah (i=cf2f3dea@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-62126838b0759cb3) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 02 22:10
ReverseGTR tessier_: I admit I do use the computer from browsing and chatting online more often then not but the application I use I feel more confortable with installing on my computer since I can more easily diagnose them and I never trust using browser based diagnostic software. Sep 02 22:11
MinceR i hope them embracing flash means they’ll get it under control Sep 02 22:11
ReverseGTR even though I admit Gmail Webapp is good Sep 02 22:11
MinceR i don’t like gmail Sep 02 22:12
ReverseGTR MinceR: I just want pure h.264 streaming Sep 02 22:12
MinceR i’d rather stream video in a video player, not in a browser Sep 02 22:12
MinceR i want to see the video, not the heaps of widgets and text and clutter around a tiny viewport Sep 02 22:13
schestowitz MinceR: they encourage people to use Flash content. It’s bad. Sep 02 22:13
MinceR people will use it without encouragement Sep 02 22:13
MinceR they’re making flashsites even though there’s no reason to do so and many reasons not to Sep 02 22:13
schestowitz Google changes this. Sep 02 22:13
schestowitz It indexes that mess now. Sep 02 22:14
MinceR if they can reduce the privileges the flash plugin gets, that might be an improvement Sep 02 22:14
MinceR indexing helps it very little Sep 02 22:14
schestowitz http://www.computerworlduk.com/communi… Sep 02 22:14
MinceR i wonder if it will have the ability to block plugins built in Sep 02 22:14
JohnnyUtah Hey Roy, can you do me a favor? Sep 02 22:14
MinceR yeah, that’s an ugly effect Sep 02 22:15
schestowitz Sure, JohnnyUtah Sep 02 22:16
schestowitz I was gonna say hi. I remember you from before. Sep 02 22:16
JohnnyUtah I want to drive like minded individuals to my forum, can you post a link on BN? Sep 02 22:16
ReverseGTR whatever it takes to kill Silverlight Sep 02 22:16
schestowitz Sure, JohnnyUtah, assuming it’s related to BN Sep 02 22:17
schestowitz Or to topic we cover. Sep 02 22:17
trmanco http://www.pcworld.com/article/1505… Sep 02 22:17
JohnnyUtah It’s Kubuntu forum – so it’s Linux related. Sep 02 22:18
schestowitz Thanks, trmanco — was gonna post an update about this in an hour. Some news on this.. Sep 02 22:18
schestowitz What’s the address again, JohnnyUtah? Sep 02 22:18
trmanco no prob Sep 02 22:18
JohnnyUtah http://kubuntuway.net Sep 02 22:18
schestowitz Ah, that’s the one. Sep 02 22:21
schestowitz I’ll post it along with the links. Sep 02 22:21
schestowitz You’re not harvesting IPs hopefully. Sep 02 22:21
JohnnyUtah Haha, nope I promise.  Thanks a lot.  Do you have a 468 x 60 banner? Sep 02 22:26
JohnnyUtah I was thinking about putting it at the bottom of the forum, try to get some more exposure for your site. Sep 02 22:26
schestowitz I have some banners, not sure about the size. :-) Sep 02 22:28
schestowitz This one is 150×75 : http://boycottnovell.com/images/bo… Sep 02 22:29
JohnnyUtah As long as it’s not bigger than 468 x 60, it will work. Sep 02 22:29
schestowitz Thanks a lot! Sep 02 22:32
JohnnyUtah Thank you!  Scroll down, it looks great: http://kubuntuway.net Sep 02 22:36
schestowitz :-) :-) Sep 02 22:38
schestowitz I have Kubuntu on my other partition. I’m on Mandriva at the moment (dual-boot Linux). Sep 02 22:38
JohnnyUtah IMO, for client machines, those two are the best of both worlds. RPM and APT Sep 02 22:44
JohnnyUtah Mandriva and Kubuntu Sep 02 22:45
schestowitz I used to detest RPM after SuSE. Sep 02 22:45
schestowitz But Mandriva never failed on me (2008.1), so far. Sep 02 22:45
schestowitz In *buntus I use apt-get, but in Mandriva I use the GUI Sep 02 22:46
JohnnyUtah Yeah Mandriva uses that URPMI package managent system. Their version of Yum. Sep 02 22:47
schestowitz The repositories are not vast, but that’s acceptable. I always find what I need. Sep 02 22:49
JohnnyUtah What’s going on with the other editor of BN?  Seems like he’s not very active these days. Sep 02 22:51
schestowitz He’s with the family. Sep 02 22:54
schestowitz When I take a vacation he’ll hopefully take over. Sep 02 22:54
JohnnyUtah i see Sep 02 23:12
*JohnnyUtah has quit (“http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client”) Sep 02 23:15
*trmanco has quit (“I just hit the close button :)”) Sep 02 23:18
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