09.25.08

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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 24th, 2008 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:56 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

GNOME Gedit

Enter the IRC channel now

MinceR like collecting data on their users and either refusing to anonymize it or using ineffective measures to do so Sep 24 00:00
MinceR and caring little about supporting platforms other than windows Sep 24 00:00
MinceR and assisting in the arrest of people who dare speak against their oppressive governments Sep 24 00:01
MinceR not only in china Sep 24 00:01
twitter The first and second are debatable.  The third is evil. Sep 24 00:03
twitter Not that the first and second are not evil, the extent to which they are true is debatable. Sep 24 00:04
twitter M$ shows “muscle” http://www.forbes.com/markets/2008/09/22/microso… Sep 24 00:04
MinceR also, being all too willing to pull videos from youtube Sep 24 00:04
twitter Going into debt is strong now. Sep 24 00:04
MinceR which resulted in a long hiatus for a video blog i keep track of Sep 24 00:05
twitter “The software maker said it has established a $2 .0 billion commercial paper program. It intends to use the proceeds from any debt financings for general corporate purposes, including funding for working capital and the stock repurchases.” Sep 24 00:05
twitter ha ha Sep 24 00:05
twitter Youtube problems come from being in the US.  They are not funny. Sep 24 00:05
MinceR no, they were doing things the dmca doesn’t mandate Sep 24 00:06
twitter Cite? Sep 24 00:06
twitter and not some Wintel FUD. Sep 24 00:06
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MinceR http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/… Sep 24 00:09
twitter Here’s something current, Google fighting ACTA.  The software maker said it has established a $2 .0 billion commercial paper program. It intends to use the proceeds from any debt financings for general corporate purposes, including funding for working capital and the stock repurchases. Sep 24 00:09
twitter grrr.  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid… Sep 24 00:09
MinceR yes, that’s part of why i said they also do some good things Sep 24 00:10
schestowitz H-P starts buybacks too. Sep 24 00:11
schestowitz 24,000 layoffs. Sep 24 00:11
twitter I don’t know what the UK demands about videos.  Google and others also have to censor Nazi crap in France and other places. Sep 24 00:11
schestowitz Rumours just came up about them killing Voodoo. Oh noes. Sep 24 00:11
twitter HP is laying off 24,000 and buying stock instead? Sep 24 00:11
schestowitz Both Sep 24 00:11
MinceR (hungarian)  http://rosszpcjatekok.blog.hu/2008/07/0… Sep 24 00:11
twitter instead of paying their employees. Sep 24 00:11
MinceR even if someone would argue that they had to delete all his videos, they didn’t have to delete his account Sep 24 00:12
MinceR yet they did Sep 24 00:12
schestowitz What was on it? Sep 24 00:12
twitter So much for the HP that would institute across the board pay cuts, they fire tens of thousands.  That blows like the ghost of Carly Fionna. Sep 24 00:12
MinceR that /. article doesn’t say anything about pressure from the state which leads me to believe that there was no legal reason to ban gun-related videos. Sep 24 00:13
MinceR schestowitz: it was a series of videos demonstrating really bad games in a funny way Sep 24 00:13
twitter If that were true, they would be banned here too. Sep 24 00:13
MinceR a bit like AVGN, except pc games and more recent ones Sep 24 00:13
MinceR and a different style. Sep 24 00:13
AlbertoP MinceR, if you violate the law of the specific country, google can only comply…they can’t say “no” against a law. Sep 24 00:13
AlbertoP and btw, they can close the account, you accept that when you open the account Sep 24 00:14
MinceR they can. they can probably delete any video they want, regardless of the dmca because of the agreement Sep 24 00:15
MinceR that doesn’t mean that it’s right to do so Sep 24 00:15
MinceR look what m$ does legally Sep 24 00:15
schestowitz telecom package due tomorrow. Sep 24 00:15
MinceR look at what hitler did legally Sep 24 00:15
twitter At some point, it’s only right to leave the country in question. Sep 24 00:15
schestowitz I’m writing about it ATM Sep 24 00:15
AlbertoP if the video violates a law, they should block the user who put it on imho Sep 24 00:15
MinceR law doesn’t enforce morals and can’t do so — the existence of law is self-serving Sep 24 00:15
MinceR it’s merely a tool of oppression Sep 24 00:16
AlbertoP Oo Sep 24 00:16
AlbertoP are you anarchic? Sep 24 00:16
MinceR i am Sep 24 00:16
MinceR it’s not really clear that the video violated any laws Sep 24 00:16
MinceR their use of soundtracks might well fit into fair use Sep 24 00:17
twitter Are there any M$ Partners that are doing well these days? Sep 24 00:17
twitter IBM, Google, Red Hat, Canonical and others are all doing well. Sep 24 00:17
twitter HP, Dell, etc are having problems. Sep 24 00:18
MinceR well, m$ is doing so badly they can’t even finance all their ad campaigns Sep 24 00:18
MinceR i’ve become targeted by one executed by my university Sep 24 00:18
AlbertoP canonical doing good? where? Sep 24 00:18
MinceR (they should be killed with fire) Sep 24 00:18
schestowitz Canonical? Sep 24 00:18
AlbertoP I didn’t see any balance stating so :) Sep 24 00:18
MinceR AlbertoP: supporting gnu/linux and ubuntu? Sep 24 00:18
schestowitz Red Hat is buying back shares. Sep 24 00:18
MinceR oh, that kind of doing good Sep 24 00:18
MinceR nvm Sep 24 00:18
schestowitz This relates to what I told AlbertoP before he had left. Sep 24 00:18
twitter ut oh. Sep 24 00:19
AlbertoP schestowitz, ? Sep 24 00:19
schestowitz Canonical has a man’s bank account. Sep 24 00:19
twitter I thought he broke even. Sep 24 00:20
schestowitz Red Hat is doing fine and the buybacks have gone on for quite some time. Microsoft and Novell want to screw them. Sep 24 00:20
schestowitz twitter: I doubt it very much. Sep 24 00:20
AlbertoP MinceR, twitter was speaking of dell and hp having problems… Sep 24 00:20
MinceR one more thing on youtube: they comply with “dmca” requests even when not done by the copyright holder: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2… Sep 24 00:20
AlbertoP what kind of problems if not financial? Sep 24 00:20
MinceR this is definitely not required by law. Sep 24 00:20
schestowitz AlbertoP: in China they sell PCs for $98 Sep 24 00:20
AlbertoP who? Sep 24 00:20
schestowitz US PC industry is tomorrow’s US steel industry. Sep 24 00:21
schestowitz Unless… they get their precious IP Sep 24 00:21
schestowitz Novell: IP, IP, IP peace of mind. Sep 24 00:21
schestowitz Microsoft: what Ron said. Sep 24 00:21
AlbertoP schestowitz, hehe well, all tech companies without IP are almost nothing…don’t forget that Sep 24 00:21
schestowitz Nathan Myhrvold: “Intellectual property is the next software.” Sep 24 00:21
MinceR the type of IP matters though Sep 24 00:21
AlbertoP do you think energy, chemical, biological and food companies don’t care about IP? Sep 24 00:21
MinceR trademarks in their own mean nothing Sep 24 00:22
MinceR patents mean that they have patented some ideas they may or may not have thought of first Sep 24 00:22
MinceR copyright means that they at least have some implementation of their own Sep 24 00:22
MinceR big difference. Sep 24 00:22
twitter I thought Shuttleworth said he was close to break even if he did not say he was already there. Sep 24 00:23
AlbertoP IP is often just a way to protect you research investements, sometime it’s abused, of course, but by itself it has nothing wrong Sep 24 00:23
schestowitz twitter: maybe with Netb00k Remix Sep 24 00:24
MinceR the bastards are crying “IP” all the way because copyright isn’t working out for them anymore as everyone knows they can’t implement anything worthwhile. Sep 24 00:24
schestowitz Yes Sep 24 00:24
MinceR they want to profit from having vague ideas Sep 24 00:24
MinceR (patents) Sep 24 00:24
schestowitz They got inside whining about patents (Gates 1991) Sep 24 00:24
twitter They want to own the world, by force. Sep 24 00:24
MinceR but admitting that vague ideas they might not have thought of first is all they have would be a great loss of face. Sep 24 00:25
schestowitz Now they want Walls and Gates to protect a monopoly they created Sep 24 00:25
twitter It’s a straight up tax.  If you don’t pay, you get treated like Iraq. Sep 24 00:25
schestowitz I hreby announce a new law Sep 24 00:25
schestowitz I own the PgDn idea because nobody else ‘claimed’ it. Sep 24 00:25
MinceR :) Sep 24 00:25
AlbertoP to be honest, I don’t think the problem around IP is strictly connected to IT Sep 24 00:25
schestowitz Pay for for its use or see you in court… get a good lawyer… save up… it’ll be long. Sep 24 00:25
MinceR it isn’t Sep 24 00:25
AlbertoP there are other A LOT more sensitive fields, and no one pays attention to them Sep 24 00:26
MinceR but IT is where the disease shows the most Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoP oh no Sep 24 00:26
MinceR partly because normally the barrier to entry is so low Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoP don’t believe that Sep 24 00:26
schestowitz Drugs and medicine. Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoP it appears to the public more Sep 24 00:26
schestowitz Death by patents./ Sep 24 00:26
MinceR and partly because assholes like m$ and crApple are dominating Sep 24 00:26
twitter That company in China that made MIPS chips got it’s pants sued off.  That’s why we don’t have $98 computers everywhere. Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoP but thre real business is elsewhere…and it is a lot lot bigger Sep 24 00:26
MinceR well you at least need to be able to manufacture chemicals to get into the medicine industry Sep 24 00:26
MinceR for the IT industry, all you need is a computer. Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoP no you don’t MinceR Sep 24 00:26
AlbertoP and the real key point for the next decades will be energy Sep 24 00:27
AlbertoP who will have energy patents will rule Sep 24 00:27
MinceR another factor i see is that IT is one of the distribution channels of hollywood Sep 24 00:28
schestowitz “open source energy” some wacko talks about it ATM Sep 24 00:28
MinceR one that they can control less than other channels Sep 24 00:28
AlbertoP medicine is a complex field, you need to spend a lot in research and be safe…that’s good business but it requires a lot of investments Sep 24 00:28
AlbertoP open source energy is bullshit Sep 24 00:28
schestowitz MinceR: telecom package again. Sep 24 00:28
twitter Dell warning, http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/apwire… Sep 24 00:28
MinceR AlbertoP: my point exactly. the barrier of entry is high. Sep 24 00:28
schestowitz Dell is Dedd Sep 24 00:28
MinceR IP law is partly about raising the barrier of entry Sep 24 00:29
schestowitz Broken CNN URL Sep 24 00:29
MinceR (a lot with minimal effort as long as the bastards get their way) Sep 24 00:29
MinceR well, got to sleep Sep 24 00:30
MinceR gn Sep 24 00:30
schestowitz gn Sep 24 00:30
twitter sorry, good night. Sep 24 00:32
AlbertoP n8 Sep 24 00:32
twitter September 16, 2008: 10:39 AM EST Sep 24 00:33
twitter      cnnad_createAd (“654 903″,”http://ads.cnn.com/html.ng/site=cn…“,”200″,”220″);                           NEW YORK (Associated Press) – Shares of PC makers headed mostly lower Tuesday along with the broader market, after computer company Dell Inc. warned it is seeing weaker information technology demand around Sep 24 00:33
twitter AP shit. Sep 24 00:33
*grompf (i=63e9f1b3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ce4c2da70169dca2) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 24 00:35
twitter red hat, consistent growth and value  http://finance.google.com/finance?q=N… Sep 24 00:36
twitter M$, flat for 10 years.  http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASD… Sep 24 00:36
AlbertoP lol Sep 24 00:36
twitter hp, some growth over the decade http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:HPQ Sep 24 00:37
twitter dell, kinda like M$ but worse http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ADELL Sep 24 00:38
twitter CompUSA, dead http://finance.google.com/finance?cid=14812297 Sep 24 00:39
schestowitz The stock don’t tell the whole story. Sep 24 00:40
schestowitz *stocks Sep 24 00:40
schestowitz You need to bear in mind that it’s all based only on the story they tell investors. Sep 24 00:41
AlbertoP you should look at the net profit to have a better insight Sep 24 00:41
schestowitz They can take a loss to please investors. Sep 24 00:41
twitter Over ten years, stocks tell a very good story. Sep 24 00:49
AlbertoP not really, because the stock value doesn’t account for a lot of factors like reorganizations and such that might lead to a change in the value of the stock Sep 24 00:50
twitter I thought charts took splits and all that into account. Sep 24 00:51
twitter Sun should be doing better than this http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:JAVA Sep 24 00:51
twitter It’s like M$ with a bigger bubble price Sep 24 00:51
schestowitz Sun is flying too close to the sun. Sep 24 00:52
AlbertoP keeping stocks price low might also be a strategy Sep 24 00:52
twitter I realize that stock prices ultimately reflect the collective opinion of technical idiots, but those idiots are also the customer. Sep 24 00:52
AlbertoP quite common among mid sized companies Sep 24 00:52
AlbertoP fyi: http://marc.info/?l=linux-kernel&m… Sep 24 00:53
AlbertoP 2.6.27-rc1 kernels appear to corrupt the EEPROM/NVM of the 8086:294c Sep 24 00:53
AlbertoP ethernet device (ICH9 I think).  After hacking the driver to ignore the Sep 24 00:53
AlbertoP bad CRC and MAC address I could view the EEPROM with ethtool and it was Sep 24 00:53
AlbertoP all 0xff. Sep 24 00:53
schestowitz Oops. Sep 24 00:54
schestowitz Big oops. Sep 24 00:54
twitter google, doing well while others languish.   http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AGOOG Sep 24 00:54
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twitter eh, I’ve got 2.6.26 Sep 24 00:55
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twitter Everyone’s favorite dog, http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?q=NASDAQ%3ANOVL Sep 24 00:58
twitter ooowwwwwwwwwww! Sep 24 00:58
AlbertoP hehe Sep 24 00:59
twitter Apple, I hate their non free software and don’t want their intel hardware but they are rocking http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AAAPL Sep 24 01:00
schestowitz 52Wk Low:  2.49  ? Sep 24 01:00
AlbertoP no twitter Sep 24 01:00
AlbertoP they are a company in which you don’t want to invest in… Sep 24 01:01
AlbertoP look at the stock history Sep 24 01:01
AlbertoP they went up quickly, and still didn’t prove to stay there long enoug Sep 24 01:01
AlbertoP enough* Sep 24 01:01
AlbertoP it is a buy and sell stock if you expect it to go up furtherly, but not to keep Sep 24 01:01
twitter I just did and wished I’d have bought in in 2001 at $10.  They have grown consistently to 180. Sep 24 01:02
AlbertoP they grew on what foundations? Sep 24 01:02
AlbertoP a consumer market that can be changed in months Sep 24 01:02
AlbertoP not really where I want to put my money Sep 24 01:03
twitter ipod, iphone, dominance of expensive laptops, solid desktops.  They will probably crap out but the future is bright with M$ going away. Sep 24 01:03
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schestowitz It was beloe $5 Sep 24 01:03
schestowitz Just snatched a screenshot Sep 24 01:03
AlbertoP hehe MS is not going away Sep 24 01:03
AlbertoP that’s the whole point Sep 24 01:03
twitter M$ is history. Sep 24 01:04
AlbertoP MS will adapt and change maybe, but it is going to play a huge role for a long time Sep 24 01:04
AlbertoP hehe history? replaced by what? Sep 24 01:04
twitter What’s going to keep them around, their famous cash reserve? Sep 24 01:04
AlbertoP you judge on the short period Sep 24 01:04
twitter It’s implosion time for those morons and it’s been coming for more than a decade. Sep 24 01:05
AlbertoP MS had a similar problem years ago Sep 24 01:05
twitter They have never faced as much superior competition with so little to offer. Sep 24 01:05
AlbertoP the superior competition comes from one side, apple Sep 24 01:06
twitter GNU/Linux kicks their ass too. Sep 24 01:06
AlbertoP MS has the desktop market, which is the key…and apple can’t compete on all the sectors of the desktop market Sep 24 01:06
twitter Companies like Google have ripped the web out of M$’s hands. Sep 24 01:06
AlbertoP linux kicks on the server side at an enterprise level Sep 24 01:06
twitter I’ve been using GNU/Linux desktops for 8 years now. Sep 24 01:07
AlbertoP but at the moment nothing offers a real desktop alternative with the same degree of versatility of Windows Sep 24 01:07
twitter bullshit Sep 24 01:07
AlbertoP oh really, what’s your job? Sep 24 01:08
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twitter Windows is extremely limited. Sep 24 01:08
AlbertoP what’s your job? Sep 24 01:08
twitter none of your business. Sep 24 01:08
AlbertoP hehe good Sep 24 01:08
twitter :) Sep 24 01:08
schestowitz twitter: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/23/… Sep 24 01:09
AlbertoP windows is not easy to replace in various fields Sep 24 01:09
twitter There are a few niche applications, but the serious ones can all be run in Wine. Sep 24 01:09
AlbertoP schestowitz, and what should that mean? Sep 24 01:09
schestowitz AlbertoP: think IBM. Microsoft can survive, potence won’t. Watch Sun, SGI, Borland, Corel… Sep 24 01:09
AlbertoP niche twitter ? Sep 24 01:10
AlbertoP cite some Sep 24 01:10
AlbertoP schestowitz, ? Sep 24 01:10
AlbertoP MS adapted to situations where SUN and IBM failed badly Sep 24 01:11
twitter 99% of the world’s computer use can now be met with free software alone.  Only a few legacy applications like AutoCAD (good only for razor thin architecture use now) are needed. Sep 24 01:11
AlbertoP twitter, that’s wrong, and I’ll explain why Sep 24 01:11
twitter or need windows, and even they can run in wine. Sep 24 01:11
schestowitz AlbertoP: Microsoft adapted to nothing. Sep 24 01:12
AlbertoP think to all the applications without any equivalent in linux: graphics, technical software, accountability applications, system control, scientific tools, school support tools and such. Sep 24 01:12
schestowitz With Office and Windows it still does the old thing. Sep 24 01:12
twitter Enlighten me.  Most computer use is text editing, database access and web browsing.  Free software does all of that better than Sweaty B can imagine. Sep 24 01:12
schestowitz Internet is a batter example… and thus far it failed. Sep 24 01:13
schestowitz I think it loses more billions on the Web than it does in Entertainment and Mobile. Sep 24 01:13
twitter There’s a lot of inhouse cruft, but most of it can be moved overnight. Sep 24 01:13
AlbertoP twitter, lol Sep 24 01:13
twitter Businesses with foresight put it all on web aps already. Sep 24 01:14
AlbertoP no really, it CAN’T be moved overnight Sep 24 01:14
twitter IBM is making good money doing it. Sep 24 01:14
AlbertoP you really have no idea of the costs of that Sep 24 01:14
twitter I have a very good idea of computer costs and inefficiencies from working in a couple of fortune 100 companies. Sep 24 01:15
AlbertoP it doesn’t really seem so Sep 24 01:15
twitter The technical and clerical desktops there would have been better off with GNU/Linux. Sep 24 01:15
AlbertoP or you should know that for example it is not done overnight to port a control system or an accountability system…just to cite examples Sep 24 01:15
AlbertoP and this because there are strict requirements Sep 24 01:15
twitter Like Bruce Perens likes to say, GNU/Linux has lower TCO, the sooner you move the more you save. Sep 24 01:16
pombat42 Outlook and Exchange would probably be the biggest hurdles Sep 24 01:16
twitter No one really uses all the bells and whistles.  You could replace them with Kolab and no one would know the difference Sep 24 01:17
AlbertoP ehh sure Sep 24 01:17
twitter M$ blew everyone off their palm pilots six years ago.  No one cared. Sep 24 01:17
AlbertoP and with what should I replace the cad I use? or the process simulator I use? Sep 24 01:18
twitter They all had bigger fish to fry. Sep 24 01:18
AlbertoP or the software my government provides to pay taxes? Sep 24 01:18
pombat42 twitter:not a chance. Sep 24 01:18
AlbertoP with something I write in the night? Sep 24 01:18
twitter AutoCAD runs in Wine. Sep 24 01:18
twitter real process simulation is not done on Winblows. Sep 24 01:18
schestowitz Zarafa, pombat42 Sep 24 01:19
AlbertoP looool Sep 24 01:19
schestowitz GPLv3 just now. Sep 24 01:19
pombat42 a company who has spent the money to obtain legal Autocad licensing is not going to worry about another $100.00 for Windows Sep 24 01:19
AlbertoP twitter, do you use autocad on wine? Sep 24 01:19
AlbertoP and do you do “real process” simulations? Sep 24 01:19
twitter Your government should supply you with a secure web app to pay taxes Sep 24 01:19
AlbertoP because I do all the day, and a lot of software is for windows, especially the data processing tools Sep 24 01:20
pombat42 i mail mine Sep 24 01:20
twitter I know people from the oil industry that know about real process simulations and I know about nuclear stuff. Sep 24 01:20
*schestowitz thinks AlbertoP practices a job as a MS salesman Sep 24 01:20
AlbertoP schestowitz, I’m a chemical engineer…so you can guess how related to MS I am Sep 24 01:20
twitter I’ve seen AutoCAD 14 on wine.  Worked great, I use qcad. Sep 24 01:20
schestowitz Micrososft’s CEO seems to love chemicals. Sep 24 01:21
AlbertoP seen right…try to use it for professional purposes Sep 24 01:21
pombat42 moving to Linux is a good idea, but it is not an overnight thing and Windows only applications have to be considered. Sep 24 01:21
twitter no drug humor for the sweaty B please. Sep 24 01:21
AlbertoP and btw, autocad is the last cad of this planet Sep 24 01:21
schestowitz AlbertoP: so does he. Sep 24 01:21
schestowitz Enthusiasm on stage sells. Sep 24 01:21
AlbertoP pombat42, exactly Sep 24 01:21
pombat42 Dog and Pony shows always reel in the live ones Sep 24 01:22
twitter Friends use Solid Works. Sep 24 01:22
pombat42 Catia Sep 24 01:22
AlbertoP when you have something else to do other than thinking to how free and open is your system, you want to use the right tool for the right task…that’s the point Sep 24 01:22
twitter People at MIT use the Athena system.  It provides every kind of software you can have to any platform you might have.  They laugh at Windows as a platform. Sep 24 01:23
AlbertoP and if one tool is windows only, well…the game is done…you buy everything for windows Sep 24 01:23
AlbertoP twitter, have you ever been at MIT? Sep 24 01:24
twitter no Sep 24 01:24
AlbertoP because they use windows too you know? Sep 24 01:24
twitter no I don’t know that. Sep 24 01:24
pombat42 MIT is using what works for them. That’s a good thing. Sep 24 01:24
AlbertoP exactly Sep 24 01:24
twitter I read their paper from time to time.  Windows does not work for anyone. Sep 24 01:24
AlbertoP there should be a MS partnership with some research group there Sep 24 01:25
AlbertoP twitter, I’m the first to say I would not use windows everywhere. Sep 24 01:25
twitter going for a Winblows desktop because you want to run one application is stupid. Sep 24 01:25
AlbertoP ah really and what should you do? dual boot? Sep 24 01:25
pombat42 not when that application is the crux of your business Sep 24 01:25
AlbertoP or virtualize a technical software that uses 8 CPU and 8GB of ram for your job? Sep 24 01:26
twitter It would be easier to run Virtual box and share it out than it would be to keep an actual Winblows machine working. Sep 24 01:26
AlbertoP right ehh how it works good… Sep 24 01:26
twitter Works great. Sep 24 01:26
AlbertoP great right… Sep 24 01:26
twitter Unless you want to be a proud 1%er and run Vista Sep 24 01:26
AlbertoP time is a factor Sep 24 01:26
pombat42 It varies Sep 24 01:26
twitter Works great. Sep 24 01:26
AlbertoP no it doesn’t Sep 24 01:26
twitter Better than it does on a real machine because you can rebuild it by copying a file. Sep 24 01:27
AlbertoP you don’t want to waste resources in that way if you can Sep 24 01:27
*ZiggyFish has quit (“Leaving.”) Sep 24 01:27
pombat42 Adding an extra level just over complicates things Sep 24 01:27
twitter I’ve seen it, it works like native. Sep 24 01:27
AlbertoP virtualization is good for certain tasks, but not surely for this kind of highly demanding stuff Sep 24 01:27
pombat42 for some applications yes. so does wine Sep 24 01:27
AlbertoP and anyway, people should choose what does the job Sep 24 01:28
twitter Wine is better still than virtual box, but the point is that 99% of the world needs none of this expensive software you are talking about. Sep 24 01:28
AlbertoP hehe you’re right Sep 24 01:28
twitter All they want is a text editor and a browser.  Any GNU/Linux distribution will do. Sep 24 01:29
AlbertoP hehe no, all they want is a working PC, with a good and easy multimedia support, compatible with all online services, and with all the devices they buy at a store Sep 24 01:29
twitter Dealing with upkeeps and upgrades in non free land is a huge ass pain. Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoP right, because upgrading your distro is a pleasure Sep 24 01:30
twitter No company needs all that multimedia crap and GNU/Linux does most of it anyway. Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoP no company? Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoP are you that sure? Sep 24 01:30
twitter Well, yes upgrading Debian is easy. Sep 24 01:30
AlbertoP do you really think companies do not use multimedia? Sep 24 01:31
AlbertoP they don’t use videoconferencing? audio? video? nooooo Sep 24 01:31
twitter no. Sep 24 01:31
AlbertoP lol Sep 24 01:31
AlbertoP well, we know two different worlds :) Sep 24 01:32
twitter The world I live in has a M$ with a network stack that sucks life. Sep 24 01:32
AlbertoP well I work in a mixed linux/windows environment by definition Sep 24 01:32
AlbertoP linux for crushing numbers machine, windows for the rest Sep 24 01:33
twitter what’s the rest? Sep 24 01:33
pombat42 I’m in a mixed world as well. Windows, Linux, Sun Sep 24 01:33
twitter if you want graphs, you use gnuplot right? Sep 24 01:33
AlbertoP the rest is data processing and connection to instruments Sep 24 01:33
AlbertoP twitter, you’re joking? Sep 24 01:33
twitter no Sep 24 01:33
AlbertoP lol Sep 24 01:34
AlbertoP I use tecplot…and yes, it is not open Sep 24 01:34
AlbertoP but we use it Sep 24 01:34
AlbertoP and matlab Sep 24 01:34
twitter matlab is only useful because of it’s huge community of users.  All scientific software is like that. Sep 24 01:35
AlbertoP there are open alternatives, but not anytime as complete and easy to use Sep 24 01:35
twitter you can scrpt tecplot? Sep 24 01:35
AlbertoP matlab is good because you’re sure about the quality Sep 24 01:35
AlbertoP yes you can script, and you can directly write a “reader” for your data Sep 24 01:35
twitter gasp, I fear for the quality of my free software, FUD. Sep 24 01:35
AlbertoP no no don’t read what I didn’t write Sep 24 01:36
twitter Winblows scripts leave me wanting. Sep 24 01:36
AlbertoP but when it comes to math, I don’t want to use untested routines Sep 24 01:36
AlbertoP MathWorks does a great job with quality Sep 24 01:36
twitter so does the uptime, lack of virtual desktops and place keeping. Sep 24 01:36
AlbertoP their routines are reviewed and widely tested Sep 24 01:36
AlbertoP uptime is not a problem for those applications Sep 24 01:37
twitter you can test your routines regardless of what you write them in. Sep 24 01:37
AlbertoP hum? Sep 24 01:37
twitter I prefer to apt-get a tool that works. Sep 24 01:37
AlbertoP what does that mean? Sep 24 01:37
twitter FFT, go for FFTW Sep 24 01:37
AlbertoP hehe matlab is not exactly fft only ^^ Sep 24 01:38
twitter for every task there’s a good C library these days. Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoP good? Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoP according to what? Sep 24 01:38
twitter Excellent. Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoP where can I see accuracy tests? Sep 24 01:38
AlbertoP matlab has them Sep 24 01:38
twitter If you know what you are doing you run them yourself.  Most of these tools are extensively documented. Sep 24 01:39
AlbertoP and their price is really accessible for what they give Sep 24 01:39
AlbertoP twitter, no you have no time to run them…you need something to trust and work with. That’s the whole point Sep 24 01:39
AlbertoP btw, matlab is not really stealing money Sep 24 01:39
twitter Most source code comes with test routines. Sep 24 01:39
AlbertoP they produce for all platforms too… Sep 24 01:40
twitter I’ve been happier with free tools, thanks. Sep 24 01:40
AlbertoP not really performant though (java interface ¬¬) Sep 24 01:40
AlbertoP that’s a choice Sep 24 01:40
AlbertoP again, I choose what works…open or closed is a secondary factor Sep 24 01:41
AlbertoP for example, there is a good OSS simulation code for fluid dynamics Sep 24 01:41
AlbertoP openfoam Sep 24 01:41
twitter I’ve been using computers for more than 20 years.  I don’t want to sink more mindshare into tools that are not free because they all vanish in time. Sep 24 01:42
AlbertoP well and open tools don’t vanish? Sep 24 01:42
AlbertoP we lost a huge amount of tools with the kde 2 -> kde 3 switch Sep 24 01:42
twitter Free software is immortal.  Emacs from 1984 is like emacs today. Sep 24 01:42
twitter I did not notice much of that loss. Sep 24 01:43
AlbertoP the same happens regularly due to lack of maintainance with gtk apps, and it will happen with KDE 3 -> 4 Sep 24 01:43
AlbertoP well if you look at main apps you won’t notice anything, but again, people need more than a nice browser and a client for emails Sep 24 01:43
schestowitz Matlab is junk Sep 24 01:43
AlbertoP really? Sep 24 01:43
schestowitz It runs on Red Hat too, but it crashes sometimes. Sep 24 01:43
schestowitz I had years of experience with it. Sep 24 01:44
twitter My GNU/Linux computing over the last 8 years has been more consistent than any non free sytem I’ve used. Sep 24 01:44
schestowitz http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexch… Sep 24 01:44
twitter ha ha. Sep 24 01:44
schestowitz It’s also very closed. Sep 24 01:44
AlbertoP schestowitz, do you know it is one of the few commercial tools accepted on the best scientific journals of math and physics? Sep 24 01:44
twitter I thought you had written a book about that.  funny you think it sucks. Sep 24 01:44
AlbertoP schestowitz, I know…I run it on my suse lappy ^^ Sep 24 01:44
schestowitz They wanted to hire me 2 years ago… 6-figure salary and all. Sep 24 01:44
AlbertoP very closed? LOOOOOL Sep 24 01:45
AlbertoP you buy it and have access to the routines ¬¬ Sep 24 01:45
schestowitz AlbertoP: all software sucks, Matlab included. Sep 24 01:45
twitter Like I said, matlab is good to know because it has a huge community of users.  They could be using a free system and it would be better. Sep 24 01:45
schestowitz There’s an article about it (software being bad. Sep 24 01:45
schestowitz Linux is solid (the kernel) Sep 24 01:45
AlbertoP lol Sep 24 01:45
schestowitz Maybe RTOSes are solid. Sep 24 01:46
AlbertoP ok Sep 24 01:46
schestowitz Solaris is solid Sep 24 01:46
pombat42 Schestowitz: Amen. All software does suck to some degree. We are humans after all. Sep 24 01:46
twitter Software that can be modified and shared improves.  Non free software is sabotaged intentionally and vanishes. Sep 24 01:46
schestowitz pombat42: you’d expect more for the prize of MATLAB, would you not? Sep 24 01:46
twitter Solaris is OK.  I don’t like it’s boot up. Sep 24 01:46
schestowitz Shall I shell out $700 to run my /OWN/ f* program? Sep 24 01:46
AlbertoP schestowitz, what’s matlab price? Sep 24 01:46
schestowitz I don’t cknow Sep 24 01:46
AlbertoP 300 dollars per licence…come on Sep 24 01:46
schestowitz I used to know. Sep 24 01:46
pombat42 Personally I feel software in general is over priced. Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoP ah right, but you judge it Sep 24 01:47
schestowitz Per licence. Joy. Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoP so what? Sep 24 01:47
schestowitz Want another PC. Pay, pay, pay. Sep 24 01:47
schestowitz You rent the ‘engine’…. to your own code. Sep 24 01:47
twitter want to fix something, go away! Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoP no you don’t rent anything Sep 24 01:47
schestowitz That must be the feeling for those who develop for the MS stack. Sep 24 01:47
twitter of course it’s rent. Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoP that’s the price for an unlimited licence Sep 24 01:47
pombat42 considering development costs logically should be going down due to outsourcing to off shore companies Sep 24 01:47
AlbertoP schestowitz, really you NEED to learn to collect information BEFORE judging Sep 24 01:47
schestowitz It’s rent. Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoP or it’s smoke Sep 24 01:48
schestowitz They have ‘network’ licence. Sep 24 01:48
schestowitz That’s spyware too. Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoP no, you can choose Sep 24 01:48
schestowitz You’re being watched, tracked and disabled. Sep 24 01:48
twitter unlimited but tied to a particular OS in a particular time and it can be terminated at any time for any reason. Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoP and btw, I’m a customer so I know! Sep 24 01:48
schestowitz You’re treated like a pirate, much like those DRM shenanigans. Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoP nah not really Sep 24 01:48
AlbertoP their support cycle is very long Sep 24 01:48
schestowitz My colleague wanted to go to Octave because he was so pissed off getting kicked off for licence he /DOES/ have. Sep 24 01:49
AlbertoP and they are extremely professionale Sep 24 01:49
twitter how do they keep multiple users from running on GNU/Linux? Sep 24 01:49
schestowitz The program says ‘sod off’ when he needs to get work done. Sep 24 01:49
AlbertoP octave doesn’t do one half of what matlab does….and it is a lot slower…we tested it Sep 24 01:49
*jose (n=jose@adsl-233-225-26.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #boycottnovell Sep 24 01:49
twitter slow does not matter if you have 2 for the price of one. Sep 24 01:49
schestowitz So improve Octave Sep 24 01:49
schestowitz It’s yours It’s GPL. Sep 24 01:49
AlbertoP schestowitz, why should I? Sep 24 01:50
schestowitz Kneel for Octave. :-) Sep 24 01:50
schestowitz I’m joking. Sep 24 01:50
AlbertoP twitter, they don’t prevent you from running multiple instances. The licence is not per cpu Sep 24 01:50
schestowitz I ran MATLAB in  large clusters. Sep 24 01:50
AlbertoP when? Sep 24 01:50
schestowitz Could I do that with my own PCs? Oh no… not if I don’t buy many licences. Sep 24 01:50
twitter it’s pre seat, right? Sep 24 01:50
AlbertoP twitter, per machine, yes Sep 24 01:51
schestowitz A plasma professor used to make this analogy of worrying about scaling experiments because of stupid licences rather than science. Sep 24 01:51
AlbertoP or per user, your choice Sep 24 01:51
AlbertoP schestowitz, matlab was parallelized only recently ^^ Sep 24 01:51
schestowitz Let’s not go into MATLAB being a resource pig Sep 24 01:51
AlbertoP aka last version :) Sep 24 01:51
AlbertoP at least in a usable way Sep 24 01:52
AlbertoP :) Sep 24 01:52
twitter neither are useful both have enforcement. Sep 24 01:52
schestowitz I used to be using an MPI library Sep 24 01:52
AlbertoP ok Sep 24 01:52
*jose has quit (Client Quit) Sep 24 01:52
twitter Software licensing sucks. Sep 24 01:52
schestowitz If I buy software it’s mine. Sep 24 01:52
AlbertoP twitter, if you work for a company or academia prices are a looooot lower for cumulative licences or packages. ^^ Sep 24 01:52
schestowitz It works for CDs, it works for a PC, do why not sofwtare? Sep 24 01:53
twitter That’s just a tax on everyone else. Sep 24 01:53
AlbertoP no it’s not schestowitz, and it doesn’t work for cd’s Sep 24 01:53
schestowitz The whole thing is organised in a way such that it benefits monopolies. Sep 24 01:53
AlbertoP the medium is yours, NOT the content Sep 24 01:53
schestowitz They set the rules to increase revenue. Some of it is akin to collusion where several companies organise the biz model. Sep 24 01:53
AlbertoP you can’t play it in public places for example without paying rights Sep 24 01:53
twitter a copyright warrior. Sep 24 01:53
schestowitz AlbertoP: you tell me how it works now. Sep 24 01:53
twitter ugh Sep 24 01:54
AlbertoP no, just someone who knows how are things Sep 24 01:54
schestowitz I tell you not how thr broken systsem operates. Sep 24 01:54
AlbertoP :) Sep 24 01:54
AlbertoP lol Sep 24 01:54
twitter laws should follow morals, not the other way around. Sep 24 01:54
schestowitz Go ahead, Noveller. Defend software patents too. Sep 24 01:54
AlbertoP no laws should defend rights, not moral Sep 24 01:54
pombat42 so who determines what is moral and what is not? Sep 24 01:55
twitter morals always defend rights. Sep 24 01:55
AlbertoP schestowitz, fyi I voted against them, as a lot of Novell people Sep 24 01:55
twitter You want the right to enslave Sep 24 01:55
AlbertoP hehe slow with words Sep 24 01:55
AlbertoP you give them improper meanings just to make concepts appear bigger…not the case Sep 24 01:55
schestowitz Patents are immoral Sep 24 01:56
AlbertoP you don’t want licences? good…don’t use commercial software Sep 24 01:56
schestowitz .Ask people in India who die with curable disease. Sep 24 01:56
schestowitz Because some people have the ‘right’ to ‘own’ rather than to help Sep 24 01:56
AlbertoP schestowitz, I agree Sep 24 01:57
pombat42 So do I (Schestowitz) Sep 24 01:57
AlbertoP that has nothing to do with what we were talking about though ^^ Sep 24 01:57
AlbertoP licence is not about patents, it’s about copyright btw…different things Sep 24 01:57
AlbertoP schestowitz, and btw, it is nice of you to worry about indians. But who pays for pharmaceutical research? Sep 24 01:58
schestowitz That’s beside the point. Sep 24 01:58
AlbertoP because it comes to this…people has to be paid for their job, and research in those fields have a huge cost…so… Sep 24 01:59
schestowitz The way a system should be established, especially where life is concerned, should be akin to the NHS. Sep 24 01:59
AlbertoP there is not enough public research unfortunately Sep 24 01:59
schestowitz Think about stem cell patents. Sep 24 01:59
AlbertoP oh I agree Sep 24 01:59
twitter There’s been plenty of public research.  Non free people steal it. Sep 24 01:59
schestowitz And think about establishment of a system that favours centralisation of aid to the ill. Sep 24 01:59
AlbertoP but tell people to pay one cent in taxes for research and they’ll answer you it is USELESS Sep 24 01:59
twitter Look into Maxsyma the next time you use symbolic manipulation. Sep 24 02:00
schestowitz Privatising not only drug but also the ability to develop them is suicide… and homocide or genocide sometimes. Sep 24 02:00
AlbertoP twitter, I work for those who created it indirectly ^_^ Sep 24 02:00
twitter created what? Sep 24 02:00
schestowitz Another issue is lack of sharing of medical research. Sep 24 02:00
AlbertoP <— work in a uni, and the sponsor is DOE, where Maxima was created originally ^^ Sep 24 02:00
schestowitz I have heaps of recent refs for you. Sep 24 02:00
schestowitz REven the dug industry, esp. in the east, is strating to embrace open source (DBs and all…) Sep 24 02:01
AlbertoP schestowitz, I know that…I’m in the research world, which is just another business Sep 24 02:01
twitter So, you know the sad story of it’s privatization. Sep 24 02:01
schestowitz No, it’s the same. Sep 24 02:01
AlbertoP twitter, I know yes…Mathematica :) Sep 24 02:01
schestowitz You could share your knowledge in a pool. Sep 24 02:01
schestowitz Works fine for Red Hat, Intel, IBM and HP Sep 24 02:01
AlbertoP the knowledge is in a pool Sep 24 02:01
schestowitz It is not. Sep 24 02:02
AlbertoP the problem is that the pool has a high cost :\ Sep 24 02:02
twitter If you know the history of Maxima, you should know that people should just use free software. Sep 24 02:02
AlbertoP scientific journals are expensive Sep 24 02:02
schestowitz Does IBM hold Linux patents to use against Intel? Sep 24 02:02
schestowitz scientific journals are obsolete Sep 24 02:02
schestowitz It’s another scheme Sep 24 02:02
schestowitz Academic pays loads of money for them and in turn they put money back into a closed system. Sep 24 02:02
AlbertoP twitter, I can’t agree in general. People should look if there is a free software that does the job before buying another one. That’s true. But if there isn’t, well…I don’t get mad and use a commercial one. Sep 24 02:03
schestowitz It’s a well-known fact that it’s like a cycle of revenue. Sep 24 02:03
schestowitz It just puts barrier in the face of the curious poor. Sep 24 02:03
AlbertoP schestowitz, no really…scientific journals are necessary today more than ever Sep 24 02:03
schestowitz Look up literature on OA (open access) Sep 24 02:03
AlbertoP they are the only form of protection against shit Sep 24 02:03
schestowitz taxpayers fund research that are not even allowed to read. Sep 24 02:03
AlbertoP false Sep 24 02:03
schestowitz Some of it is to do with cancer, i.e. life and death. Sep 24 02:04
twitter no, that’s true. Sep 24 02:04
AlbertoP taxpayers have access to ALL public libraries and can read what they want Sep 24 02:04
AlbertoP even university libraries Sep 24 02:04
twitter not all public libraries have the publications, even large university libraries. Sep 24 02:04
schestowitz Give them bus money. Sep 24 02:04
schestowitz And chicken skins. Sep 24 02:04
twitter It can take weeks to get journals through interlibrary loans. Sep 24 02:05
twitter Kind of like taking the bus Sep 24 02:05
pombat42 Put simply. Somewhere, somehow,some way, people have to be paid. What other incentive is there? Sep 24 02:05
AlbertoP twitter, all journals are online ¬¬ Sep 24 02:05
twitter good luck to the public getting at them. Sep 24 02:05
schestowitz How do people get paid for development of Linux? Sep 24 02:05
schestowitz People make use of that knowledge and asset. Sep 24 02:05
pombat42 Many of them have day jobs Sep 24 02:05
twitter people make software work to get their job done. Sep 24 02:05
twitter non free software gets in the way of getting the job done. Sep 24 02:06
pombat42 People want their software to work so they can get their job done Sep 24 02:06
AlbertoP hehe exactly Sep 24 02:06
pombat42 Software is a tool nothing more. Sep 24 02:06
twitter My desktop is a figment of my imagination. Sep 24 02:06
pombat42 Vitual hey :) Sep 24 02:06
pombat42 virtual Sep 24 02:06
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