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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 21st, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 6:57 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


Enter the IRC channel now

oiaohm So browser compadiblity no .net is not better. Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm If you mean intergration into ADS. Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm Yes that is simpler. Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm It is a addon block of code for PHP. Feb 21 00:00
oiaohm Basically python perl PHP all the open source web development platforms provide you with the means to simple control the html sent to clients directly. Feb 21 00:01
benJIman oiaohm: So does .net Feb 21 00:01
oiaohm Really. Feb 21 00:01
benJIman In fact more easily. Feb 21 00:01
oiaohm PHP where html is directly emebed in its code. Feb 21 00:02
benJIman There used to be at least difficulty doing using HTTP PUT with php for example. Feb 21 00:02
oiaohm Funny part need to use a different version of that for lynx Feb 21 00:02
benJIman Maybe you’re doing it wrong :p Feb 21 00:02
oiaohm No. Feb 21 00:03
oiaohm Lynx some versions don’t respond right. Feb 21 00:03
oiaohm to http put data. Feb 21 00:03
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benJIman Embedding code in the html doesn’t mean you have more control. Generally separation of concerns is better. Feb 21 00:03
oiaohm Really no it is not better. Feb 21 00:04
oiaohm Reason you have two files you have to compare when working out a bug compared to 1. Feb 21 00:04
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oiaohm Least numbers of files wins. Feb 21 00:04
Balrog can’t you do separation of code with PHP ? Feb 21 00:04
Balrog (I’m sure you can with some of the other open platforms available) Feb 21 00:05
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oiaohm You can stack php on php yes. Feb 21 00:05
oiaohm But when you get down to what is sent to browsers good coders will do all that code in combinde form. Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz Someone has just told me: “this is not really an recognized authority. btw http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/200… Feb 21 00:06
oiaohm Just due to the debuging time it saves. Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz This is not good for SUSE Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz And the author is a buddy of Miguel, apparently. Feb 21 00:06
schestowitz Maybe just know to him and nothing more, who knows..? Feb 21 00:07
oiaohm LOL asp.net does not detect Linux. Feb 21 00:07
oiaohm It tells me to install silverlight on debian. Feb 21 00:07
Balrog schestowitz: how would that be? Feb 21 00:07
Balrog silverlight? there’s moonlight Feb 21 00:07
Balrog doesn’t even work 1/2 the time Feb 21 00:07
oiaohm It says silverlight Feb 21 00:08
Balrog so it’s useless for my purposes Feb 21 00:08
oiaohm No mention of moonlight at all. Feb 21 00:08
Balrog yeah … wonder if it detects iphone Feb 21 00:08
schestowitz :-) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20… (UK boffin: Social networking causes cancer, heart attacks, lupus, dementia…) Feb 21 00:08
Balrog (which has no plugins) Feb 21 00:08
oiaohm Not a good sign when a site for building web sites cannot detect web browers correctly. Feb 21 00:08
Balrog or for that matter, push unnecessary plugins Feb 21 00:09
schestowitz More craziness. First nmap, now this.. State bill would turn RFID researchers into felons < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/… > Feb 21 00:09
Balrog plugins tend to be a great big security hole Feb 21 00:09
Balrog schestowitz: nmap? in Germany you mean? Feb 21 00:09
Balrog security by obscurity Feb 21 00:10
Balrog terrible Feb 21 00:10
Balrog and in the US D: Feb 21 00:10
schestowitz Windows 7 on the (Too) Fast Track < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159941… > Feb 21 00:10
oiaohm Yet you like using .net Feb 21 00:10
schestowitz “Is Microsoft cutting corners in the rush to market?” Feb 21 00:10
schestowitz Balrog: UK too Feb 21 00:11
Balrog I’m no fan of .NET Feb 21 00:11
Balrog at all Feb 21 00:11
schestowitz openbenJIman is a .net fan Feb 21 00:11
Balrog oh. Feb 21 00:11
Balrog I see Feb 21 00:11
Balrog what about Java? Yes, it’s overused, but it works and it’s open Feb 21 00:11
twitter Glad to see you getting some use out of that image. Feb 21 00:11
Balrog (meaning Java server) Feb 21 00:12
benJIman Balrog: I prefer java. Feb 21 00:12
twitter Just sent you another one and it’s parts.  Don’t know if you need it, have fun. Feb 21 00:12
oiaohm Java is not the best but it can be aduited completely. Feb 21 00:12
Balrog it’s easy to write …. Feb 21 00:12
benJIman oiaohm: What do you mean by that? Feb 21 00:12
oiaohm Also you do have secoundary engines that will run java if the main one is broken. Feb 21 00:13
Balrog what I’m annoyed with is that it’s pushed so much. Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz “Wake up, folks. It’s all been a big lie.” (Vista7) Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz twitter: add that Randall C. Kennedy piece to your profolio Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz “And as for the public “beta” charade, more than one person has accused Microsoft of using the threat of limited availability and a fixed cut-off date as a kind of PR stunt, a way to generate buzz by showing how much pent-up demand exists for their new baby.” Feb 21 00:13
schestowitz “Development team responses like “won’t fix” or “by design” seem to be the the norm for even serious issues, leading many testers to conclude that the product was feature complete (i.e. no longer subject to significant modification based on tester input) long before they received their first code drop.” Feb 21 00:13
Balrog I saw that :( Feb 21 00:14
benJIman Of course that never happens with free software. Feb 21 00:14
Balrog well, if it happens in free software, YOU can fix it yourself. Feb 21 00:15
Balrog not so with closed software Feb 21 00:15
benJIman Quite. Feb 21 00:15
benJIman Which is why I use free softare :) Feb 21 00:15
Balrog it may be hard to do so, but it’s interesting to note the number of patches to free software that Gentoo applies Feb 21 00:15
Balrog (to fix various things) Feb 21 00:15
benJIman They should be pushed upstream where sensible. Feb 21 00:16
Balrog yes. Feb 21 00:16
Balrog a good number of the patches are fixes for the gentoo build system Feb 21 00:16
Balrog but many add functionality / fix stuff Feb 21 00:16
Balrog You heard of the mess with the Ion window manager? Feb 21 00:17
Balrog (back in 07) Feb 21 00:17
oiaohm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverity  benJIman tools like this can be run everywhere accross java.   There are other tools that run accross php python and perl as well.  Java still had the annoyance of .net you need the source code to scan it. Feb 21 00:18
benJIman oiaohm: Findbugs is pretty good for java and free. Feb 21 00:18
Balrog yeah. Java does run faster though…right? Feb 21 00:18
oiaohm Depends. Feb 21 00:18
oiaohm gcj or jit Balrog Feb 21 00:18
Balrog ? Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm You will find some java applications like on or the other. Feb 21 00:19
Balrog I see. Feb 21 00:19
Balrog the newer jit uses HotSpot. Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm Hotspot works will on predictable things. Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm gcj does nice general optimisation. Feb 21 00:19
oiaohm Ie stuff that will be getting lots of random data feeds into gcj will win. Feb 21 00:20
Balrog I see. Feb 21 00:20
Balrog gcj is tricky to set up in my experience Feb 21 00:20
oiaohm Yes Feb 21 00:20
oiaohm It really comes down to how much you need performance. Feb 21 00:21
schestowitz Troubling times for OpenSUSE < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/23388/1090/ > Feb 21 00:21
schestowitz oiaohm: just don’t cite Fortify (MS partner) Feb 21 00:22
Balrog …Fortify…? Feb 21 00:22
benJIman oiaohm: Oh really? Feb 21 00:22
benJIman oiaohm: In fact hotspot nearly always wins on all but very short lived things. Feb 21 00:23
Balrog gcj is nice because you can get machine language code… but that’s a different use Feb 21 00:23
benJIman Sam Varghese has an interesting definition of truism. Feb 21 00:24
benJIman Balrog: So does hotspot, at runtime. Feb 21 00:24
benJIman Just in time compilers have more information to base optimisation on than ahead of time. Feb 21 00:25
Balrog well, you may not have a JVM installed …. or you may not want to use it. Feb 21 00:25
Balrog it’s extra code with extra (possible) bugs Feb 21 00:25
oiaohm hotspot can shot it self in foot trying to make optimisation match a random operation feed benJIman Feb 21 00:25
benJIman Well yeah it’s useful for some embedded scenarios where it’s not practical to run a jit. Feb 21 00:25
oiaohm Ok this section of code has nto been called for a while it can be made slow. Feb 21 00:25
oiaohm bugger it just got called. Feb 21 00:25
benJIman oiaohm: I’m not sure you understand how it works ;) Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm Its really horses for courses. Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm I know how hotspot works. Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm there are just some java programs that it don’t get along with. Feb 21 00:26
oiaohm The effect is performance improving and droping as it tries to improve the code. Feb 21 00:27
oiaohm Now for something you want running at a constant speed gcj wins. Feb 21 00:27
benJIman For a constant speed of slow. Feb 21 00:27
Balrog gcj is slower than equivalent c code….? Feb 21 00:28
benJIman Balrog: Depends what you mean by equivalent. Feb 21 00:28
oiaohm I have see one java application take 4 times long with hotspot to complete due to the stalls. Feb 21 00:28
benJIman There are a lot of gross generalisations here. Feb 21 00:28
oiaohm gcc it self does have a annoying flaw. Feb 21 00:28
Balrog which is…? Feb 21 00:28
oiaohm No link time optimisation. Feb 21 00:29
oiaohm That works well. Feb 21 00:29
schestowitz Why is Zonker so quiet? Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz Since the layoffs even. Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz Not a word. Feb 21 00:30
oiaohm http://llvm.org/Features.html  Using gcc releation llvm java hot spot does have problems. Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz Phoronix has new gcc benchmarks today Feb 21 00:30
schestowitz http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=art… Feb 21 00:30
Balrog heh Feb 21 00:31
*benJIman has yet to see a phoronix benchmark that isn’t hillariously flawed. Feb 21 00:31
Balrog when will they move to GCC4? Feb 21 00:31
Balrog true, but GCC3 is slower Feb 21 00:31
Balrog it’s like those comparisons of OS X on ppc harware back when they were using GCC2 Feb 21 00:31
Balrog which has poor optimizations for PPC Feb 21 00:32
oiaohm Gcc did something stupid internally. Feb 21 00:32
oiaohm As well. Feb 21 00:32
benJIman At least this is testing actually different software, instead of the let’s test slightly different kernel revisions at i/o and cpu bound operations! Feb 21 00:32
oiaohm Information about finally binary sections of it travels in independant structs. Feb 21 00:32
schestowitz They defend BN.. Feb 21 00:33
Balrog ? Feb 21 00:33
schestowitz I totally missed that part (page 2) Feb 21 00:34
schestowitz “One must not forger the principle of cause and effect – the search for scapegoats must end at the company’s executive suite.” Feb 21 00:34
Balrog but putting out flawed benchmarks isn’t too good. Feb 21 00:34
schestowitz it’s actually not much of an insult that they blame BN for the failures of Hovsepian and chums Feb 21 00:34
oiaohm Balrog: ms has put out worse. Feb 21 00:35
Balrog certainly they have Feb 21 00:35
oiaohm Like comparing windows 2000 to redhat 7 Feb 21 00:35
Balrog and bad studies Feb 21 00:35
oiaohm yep redhat 9 was released. Feb 21 00:35
Balrog (saying that Windows is less expensive to maintain than Linux) Feb 21 00:35
Balrog I’ve seen that in printed mag ads Feb 21 00:35
benJIman It really depends on the scenario. Feb 21 00:36
benJIman It can be, you could easily prove either with a study. Feb 21 00:36
Balrog well, I’m working part-time in IT at a university Feb 21 00:36
Balrog and it’s definitely not less expensive (time spent including) to maintain Feb 21 00:37
oiaohm Its like solarias vs Linux. Feb 21 00:37
benJIman e.g if you have a microsoft-skilled workforce windows is going to be easier to maintain. Feb 21 00:37
oiaohm If you are running many servers in one box solarias still wins. Feb 21 00:37
Balrog well, solaris isn’t that bad. True, you have to learn some extra stuff, but it’s ok Feb 21 00:37
oiaohm Now if its a single sever doing firewalling you would be basically nuts to use solaris Feb 21 00:38
Balrog the way Sun does stuff bothers me …. they can’t stick to openldap and try force you to use their ldap server Feb 21 00:38
oiaohm Task vs OS. Feb 21 00:38
oiaohm Sorry to say Sun LDAP server was designed first. Feb 21 00:38
schestowitz Watch the image at the bottom of this one. Microsoft. Feb 21 00:38
schestowitz http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009… Feb 21 00:38
Balrog maybe, but it sucks that it can’t work cross platform Feb 21 00:39
Balrog I’ve seen a patch (to openldap) to make it work and it’s only like 10 lines! (though that is for an older version) Feb 21 00:39
Balrog http://www.bolthole.com/solaris/ldap_patch.txt Feb 21 00:39
schestowitz This one’s still hanging about: Cuba to United States: We’ll Launch our own OS! < http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/cuba_u… > Bug WIN for Gentoo Feb 21 00:42
oiaohm Most OS’s based of Gentoo end up migrating to something else. Feb 21 00:42
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Balrog oiaohm: why? Feb 21 00:43
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Balrog because it changes too often? Feb 21 00:43
oiaohm Mostly its package management system. Feb 21 00:43
Balrog I think its package manager is very good Feb 21 00:44
Balrog yeah, it’s tricky to work with, but allows for total control Feb 21 00:44
oiaohm Total control bit. Feb 21 00:44
oiaohm Most users + that equals big problems lot of support calls. Feb 21 00:44
Balrog true. Feb 21 00:44
Balrog Fedora or Debian are probably better choices to start with Feb 21 00:44
oiaohm No centos not fedora Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm Fedora too much lets test this and hope user don’t suffer OS. Feb 21 00:45
Balrog why not fedora? moves too fast? Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm Fedora is mostly used by redhat to test applications Feb 21 00:45
Balrog the university uses fedora and it works well Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm I have had all kinds of evil from fedora Feb 21 00:45
oiaohm From ldap servers that don’t run. Feb 21 00:46
oiaohm To dhcp servers that loss track of IP handed out. Feb 21 00:46
oiaohm centos is a sorted form of Fedora. Feb 21 00:46
oiaohm Yep that broken dont ship that out. Feb 21 00:46
schestowitz Balrog: they use Entropy of sabayon) Feb 21 00:47
Balrog Fedora 9 was a mess, I heard Feb 21 00:47
oiaohm Also if you want to minorlly scare you self with warning messages. Feb 21 00:47
oiaohm Build Fedora’s kernel from source. Feb 21 00:48
Balrog heh Feb 21 00:48
oiaohm Then build kernel.org version. Feb 21 00:48
Balrog what messy stuff do they do? Feb 21 00:48
Balrog you mean with no patches? Feb 21 00:48
Balrog kernel.org is official right? Feb 21 00:48
oiaohm Fedora kernel puts out about 20000 warning messages due to the patches they applied. Feb 21 00:48
schestowitz For server, just go with centos Feb 21 00:48
Balrog heh Feb 21 00:48
oiaohm Yep poor quality control on included patches effect fedora badly. Feb 21 00:49
Balrog interesting. Where I’m at they use fedora (true, 7, not the latest) and it works well Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz It’s a fast cycle Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz 6 months Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz Let’s see Apple or Microsoft do this Feb 21 00:49
benJIman Fedora has a strong emphasis on using the latest upstream without patching. Feb 21 00:49
Balrog true. Isn’t Ubuntu 6-months? Feb 21 00:49
oiaohm Fedora 4 was also stable. Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz Not just some service pack slapped together once in 1-2 years Feb 21 00:49
Balrog yeah they use 4 and 7 Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz Balrog: yes Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz Fedora 10 is good Feb 21 00:49
schestowitz F11 seems to be going well too Feb 21 00:49
oiaohm 10 a few odd ball services are broken. Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz F9 was problematic all along at the time, but they pulled through Feb 21 00:50
Balrog where I’m at, they do a lot of testing before deploying Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz I didn’t try it, but I read many reviews Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz I sometimes use Fedora Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz Works VERY well Feb 21 00:50
oiaohm Hopefully at some point Fedora gets true quaility control. Feb 21 00:50
oiaohm Not lucky. Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz oiaohm likes to exaggerate issues :-) Feb 21 00:50
schestowitz After all, he runs a Linuxhaters site, so.. Feb 21 00:50
oiaohm No I don’t run a Linuxhater site. Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz oiaohm: the newer oen Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz *one Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm Nop Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz The original one is so yesterday Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz No? Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm I go there and pull there logic apart. Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz Redux, no? Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm Redux hates me. Feb 21 00:51
schestowitz Oh, so who are you then? Feb 21 00:51
oiaohm So far he has not put up a single thing that passes logic. Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz Alex the Wintroll said it was you. Feb 21 00:52
oiaohm I run bits on secuirty design and basic design issues. Feb 21 00:52
oiaohm I hate windows mac and Linux in places. Feb 21 00:52
Balrog no one is perfect Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz Nokia To Stop Developing Qt Jambi < http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page… > Feb 21 00:52
oiaohm Windows lot more in secuirty. Feb 21 00:52
Balrog except that Windows is terrible Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz Oh yeah… Nokia was ‘good’ news to Qt Feb 21 00:52
schestowitz So Qute… Feb 21 00:53
Balrog come on Feb 21 00:53
Balrog Qt is so useful Feb 21 00:53
schestowitz Pretty too Feb 21 00:53
schestowitz I LOVE Qt -built GUIs Feb 21 00:53
schestowitz I used their IDE before… not much development as much as tweaking though Feb 21 00:54
oiaohm gcj cni interface you really don’t need java wrappers to use QT from java. Feb 21 00:55
oiaohm Yes a lot like .net native call feature.  Except cni is older. Feb 21 00:55
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schestowitz GTK neglected Java somewhat Feb 21 00:56
schestowitz Mono and Novell don’t help here. Feb 21 00:56
Balrog true. Feb 21 00:56
schestowitz This is something we covered ’bout a year ago Feb 21 00:56
oiaohm Mono lacks native call support. Feb 21 00:57
oiaohm Really I think that is very intentioanl. Feb 21 00:57
oiaohm If they allows that on Linux it would fragment .net a way MS would not like. Feb 21 00:57
Balrog does java allow native calls? Feb 21 00:59
benJIman With jni or jna etc Feb 21 01:00
oiaohm gnu version of it does for AOT built. Feb 21 01:00
benJIman Not as easily as in .net Feb 21 01:00
oiaohm Niether jni or jna required. Feb 21 01:00
benJIman That’s not really java though. Feb 21 01:00
benJIman JNA is relatively easy to use. Feb 21 01:00
Balrog well in any case, what to do to move away from this SilverLight junk? Feb 21 01:04
schestowitz A Novell Vay is angry about the bosses taking vacations… http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/02/18/novell-five… Feb 21 01:05
Balrog all the video capture software they’re looking at uses it D: Feb 21 01:06
schestowitz Great picture: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/… Feb 21 01:07
Balrog it’s interesting that the ‘notification’ system proposed for 9.04 looks exactly like Sparkle for Mac Feb 21 01:08
schestowitz Got a picture there? Feb 21 01:09
oiaohm Of course. Feb 21 01:09
oiaohm ubuntu lead said copy Mac Feb 21 01:09
schestowitz Canonical’s April 2009 Surprise: More Than Ubuntu 9.04 < http://www.workswithu.com/2009/02/19/canoni… > Feb 21 01:09
schestowitz oiaohm: he’s obsessed with Apple Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz Shuttleworth can sometimes be a PR disaster IMHO Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz His remarks on Vista7 and OS X for example Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz By being respectful to the competition he belittles not only Ubuntu but GNU/Linux as a whole Feb 21 01:10
schestowitz He’s a bad salesman to tell you the truth because both Apple and Microsoft won’t do that Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz Microsoft still talks about Vista like it’s a wonderful product Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz Internally you see how they really feel (unsealed court docs) Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz Apple ain’t much better with their many defective projects at 1.0 Feb 21 01:11
schestowitz But they have an army of fans of evangelist (paid for, i.e. AstroTurfers) to cherish the DisneyWorld that’s Apple. Feb 21 01:12
Balrog yeah, Apple did mess up with open source and all Feb 21 01:12
Balrog but as a whole, they’re doing much better than MS Feb 21 01:12
Balrog at least their software works much better then MS software :p Feb 21 01:12
oiaohm Apple has aways been more of hardware company. Feb 21 01:12
Balrog well, they have Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz I think of Apple’s marketing as “naked emperor” advertising. Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz Balrog: ms has 3rd-party apps going for them Feb 21 01:13
Balrog but without software, their hardware would be run of the mill Feb 21 01:13
oiaohm Ipods ….  Really if Apple whent full open source. Feb 21 01:13
oiaohm Most likely they would stay in business. Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz The what? Feb 21 01:13
Balrog like sony: pretty but not really worth it Feb 21 01:13
MinceR gn Feb 21 01:13
schestowitz That’s utter B Feb 21 01:13
oiaohm There design guys do know how to make stuff look good. Feb 21 01:14
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schestowitz Hi, avuton Feb 21 01:14
avuton Hello Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz oiaohm: not true. Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz It’s marketing people Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz Don’t confuse the two Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz They assimilate imagery and products Feb 21 01:14
schestowitz Apple also polices how it’s products are presented and photographed Feb 21 01:15
Balrog Marketing is too important these days. But if you don’t do it, you’re get behind pretty quick Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz It’s all about some kind of glorification of items Feb 21 01:15
Balrog well before release, I’m sure Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz Like leaders whose people would always picture them from below to make them look mightier Feb 21 01:15
Balrog the ‘fans’ actually complain a lot though. Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz Look at APple ‘TV’ effrots Feb 21 01:15
Balrog doesn’t MS want that even more? though their products are terrible Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz No marketing , no go Feb 21 01:15
schestowitz Also a cr*p product with few featurs Feb 21 01:16
Balrog the ads? Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz LinuxMCE easts it for lunch Feb 21 01:16
Balrog or the TV? Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz And cheaper too Feb 21 01:16
Balrog yeah, until you install the hack Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz :-) Feb 21 01:16
Balrog which is soo easy :) Feb 21 01:16
oiaohm to be correct apple spends a lot of time on case design. Feb 21 01:16
schestowitz Marketing alone of the Zune must have cost more than the revenue Feb 21 01:16
oiaohm It would be nicer if they spent more on features. Feb 21 01:16
Balrog there’s boxee for apple TC Feb 21 01:17
Balrog TV * Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz With development and production costs, I can imagine the Zune lost 100s of $millions Feb 21 01:17
Balrog and XBMC. Feb 21 01:17
Balrog yeah definitely Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz XBox lost over $5bn Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz It’s not cheap bribing game sites Feb 21 01:17
Balrog heh Feb 21 01:17
Balrog so much for the high ‘sales’ Feb 21 01:17
schestowitz oiaohm: features? Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz No way Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz In Apple world, 1 button is enough Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz Click to switch on TV Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz Click again to switch off tv :-) Feb 21 01:18
schestowitz Pinch to infinge patent :-) Feb 21 01:18
Balrog no, in the apple world, a trackpad with 10 functions is plenty :p Feb 21 01:18
oiaohm Catch you guys around lunch is calling Feb 21 01:18
Balrog this whole patent thing is a mess Feb 21 01:19
schestowitz Ok, cool. Feb 21 01:19
Balrog different people give different reports Feb 21 01:19
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) Feb 21 01:19
schestowitz On same ideas? Feb 21 01:19
Balrog some reports are that the patent is only on how two-finger scroll is determined Feb 21 01:19
Balrog others say that it has to do with the ‘heuristics’ that determine the user’s intent Feb 21 01:19
schestowitz Oh, I didn’t look at the specifics Feb 21 01:19
Balrog yeah, would be a good idea too Feb 21 01:19
Balrog to * Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz Prior art is usually an analogous action that’s well… ‘analog’, not digital. Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz I guess people having sxual intercourse can be taxed by Apple too. Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz Did you see the Seinfeld episode the “Pinch”? Feb 21 01:20
Balrog well, I’m sure their heuristics can be patented (like what tech they use to decide whether to scroll only up/down or scroll freely) Feb 21 01:20
schestowitz Where George ‘steals’ Jerry’s ‘move’? Feb 21 01:20
*Balrog doesn’t watch tv Feb 21 01:21
schestowitz I don’t anymore, either, except a few times a week. Feb 21 01:22
Balrog I see. Feb 21 01:23
Balrog Well I’d look at the patent’s specifics Feb 21 01:23
Balrog I’ve heard various reports. Some say it has to do with determining how to scroll Feb 21 01:23
Balrog Asus has two-finger scroll in the eeepc Feb 21 01:24
Balrog in any case, all the stuff I read is very mixed Feb 21 01:31
Balrog some say it’s “all-encompassing” while some say it’s specific Feb 21 01:32
Balrog so it seems that reading the patent would be the best way to figure out Feb 21 01:32
schestowitz brb Feb 21 01:37
schestowitz Novellers piss me off. Feb 21 01:37
schestowitz “distract” rather… attacks in the comments that need replying fasty Feb 21 01:37
schestowitz *fast Feb 21 01:37
twitter submitted Kennedy.  Modded down, just like previous submission.  http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=vi… Feb 21 01:38
twitter http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?… Feb 21 01:39
schestowitz See http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/20/nove… Feb 21 01:42
Balrog see http://i.gizmodo.com/5142445/disse… Feb 21 01:42
Balrog about the patent Feb 21 01:42
Balrog of course, it may not be totally correct. Feb 21 01:42
Balrog or unbiased Feb 21 01:42
Balrog for that matter Feb 21 01:42
schestowitz That post hit a nerve at Novell Feb 21 01:44
schestowitz Apple’s patent has hurt 2 Linux devices Feb 21 01:44
Balrog meaning Android? Feb 21 01:44
schestowitz Android reporrtedly rm-ed a feature and Palm was reprimanded.d Feb 21 01:44
Balrog I didn’t hear that Palm was reprimanded directly Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz I wrote about this in the patent roundups in BN Feb 21 01:45
Balrog Apple just said they’d ‘defend their IP from being ripped off’ Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz Just in their meeting minutes or something Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz But maybe there was also direct coversation Feb 21 01:45
schestowitz Nobody knows.. Feb 21 01:45
Balrog I don’t know. Feb 21 01:46
schestowitz http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4019.html “These moves suggest to me that Apples fears competition, and I’m wondering why. If you put their products on an even playing field and let the buyer decide, in my opinion, Apple is going to win hands-down.” Feb 21 01:46
Balrog we’ll see when it all pans out Feb 21 01:46
schestowitz Mac fan by the way Feb 21 01:46
Balrog by the way, about the Android, they’d better do multitouch right if they do it at all Feb 21 01:46
Balrog we don’t know all the circumstances of the decision Feb 21 01:47
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Balrog maybe it goes much deeper than we think Feb 21 01:47
Balrog (possibly google’s multitouch sucked?) Feb 21 01:47
schestowitz How can it suck? Feb 21 01:47
schestowitz It’s a simple idea Feb 21 01:47
schestowitz It’s not even new Feb 21 01:47
Balrog depending on how you implement it Feb 21 01:48
schestowitz Combining ideas is not innovation Feb 21 01:48
schestowitz It’s progress Feb 21 01:48
Balrog yeah, pinch zoom and scroll and all that seem obvious Feb 21 01:48
Balrog but the technology that makes it work is what matters Feb 21 01:48
Balrog scroll and pinch and rotate to zoom are obvious IMO Feb 21 01:49
Balrog and can’t be patented per se Feb 21 01:50
Balrog how you detect the user’s intent (whether the user wants to click, scroll, etc) may be a different story Feb 21 01:50
schestowitz subpixel huntint too. Feb 21 01:50
schestowitz *hinting Feb 21 01:50
Balrog well who has the patent on that? Feb 21 01:51
Balrog not MS? Feb 21 01:52
benJIman MS have some for cleartype and apple have others too. Feb 21 01:54
Balrog I see. Feb 21 01:54
schestowitz It’s stupid maths Feb 21 01:55
twitter Anonymous and nO’Brain nit picking and libel, again. Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz Also interpretation of fingers is something that’s well… axiomatic almost Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz You’re blocking areas of science Feb 21 01:55
Balrog it’s weird how people argue whether Apple or MS does better with font rendering Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz Fencing against development Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz That’s why it’s called intellectual monopolies Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz It impedes competition Feb 21 01:55
Balrog heh. well we’ll see what happens when the pre comes out Feb 21 01:55
schestowitz Do something and then block replication, even if totally independent because it’s obvious. Feb 21 01:56
Balrog if it’s obvious, it won’t stand up in court. Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz The fact that Palm is pressure with words is enough to show what cowards Apple are Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz They shouldn’t do that Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz Microsoft did this to Linux too Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz Many times in fact Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz The dark clouds always over one’s heads. Feb 21 01:56
schestowitz benJIman know… his ‘buddies’ at Novell contributed to this Feb 21 01:57
schestowitz *knows Feb 21 01:57
twitter Software patents are always like that. Feb 21 01:57
Balrog software patents are a mess. Feb 21 01:57
Balrog “After long arguments, the judge insisted on an analysis of specific GUI elements that Apple claimed were infringements. Apple came up with a list of 189 GUI elements; the judge decided that 179 of these elements had been licensed to Microsoft in the Windows 1.0 agreement, and most of the remaining 10 elements were not copyrightable—either they were unoriginal to Apple, or they were the only possible way of expressing a Feb 21 01:57
Balrog on the Apple vs. MS suit Feb 21 01:57
twitter they should not exist.  software is not an invention, it’s an expression of instructions Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz When I implement something the last thing I think of is “hey, let’s block others from doing this” Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz The guy who invented the web cookie said it took him an hour to do Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz It would take him weeks or months to get a silly pieace of paper on it Feb 21 01:58
Balrog yeah Feb 21 01:58
twitter The first thing people who buy code think is “let’s make sure this is ours and no one else’s” Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz So some other company obtained a patent on ‘his’ ‘invention’… the Web cookie Feb 21 01:58
schestowitz twitter: you should see Miguel and MS interview.. Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz They say exactly that. Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz Hold on Feb 21 01:59
twitter people who buy code have a tendency to think of it as something you can put in a box and sell Feb 21 01:59
Balrog unfortunately they do exist. Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/19/eu… Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz “Also check out the bit (a few minutes later) where Carmine tries to redefine “open source” (”we recently open sourced the base-class libraries”), and later on protests (paraphrased) “Sometimes … you’ve got IP. It’s mine, it’s mine, I don’t want it to be yours. It’s my IP.” Feb 21 01:59
schestowitz Feb 21 01:59
twitter there are many injustices in the world.  they must be removed Feb 21 01:59
Balrog Well you can sell code. But if someone independently figures out how to do exactly the same thing, they should not be sued Feb 21 01:59
twitter exactly. Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz Carmine BTW is the Microsoft lackey. Feb 21 02:00
Balrog Closed-source has its place. But preventing someone from independently figuring out the same exact thing isn’t exactly right Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz Miguel is there too with them… Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz The whole ‘extended family’ (Novell&Miguel&MS) Feb 21 02:00
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u… Feb 21 02:01
twitter denying people the 0th software freedom is about as wrong as laws can be. Feb 21 02:02
schestowitz Balrog: it’s not just that. Sometimes patents stand in the way of merely making two thing work together… hence the danger of patent/s-encumbered standards (even RAND) Feb 21 02:02
twitter you have the right to make your computer do your tasks Feb 21 02:02
twitter no one should be able to tell you what you can’t do with your own code Feb 21 02:02
Balrog yeah that’s really bad. but if what I said was true (you can figure out how to do something, say reverse engineer a file format without ‘inside knowledge) that holds Feb 21 02:03
twitter you should be able to do things with your files and offer your code to others who would like to do the same or similar things Feb 21 02:03
schestowitz Case of point (found in news a minute ago): http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2009/02/… Feb 21 02:03
Balrog or withhold your code if you want. But NOT prevent reversing Feb 21 02:04
Balrog this < http://farm4.static.flickr.com/303… > is a classic poster hanging in the server room :) Feb 21 02:05
Balrog or a photo of it Feb 21 02:05
Balrog in any case, it wasn’t good back then, isn’t much better today Feb 21 02:05
Balrog (isn’t any better, really) Feb 21 02:05
Balrog could say it’s worse today Feb 21 02:06
schestowitz Does this video work for you? New one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgPeO7IR-UQ Feb 21 02:06
schestowitz Firefox doesn’t load them out for no reason (never happened before) Feb 21 02:06
Balrog works here Feb 21 02:06
twitter clive is getting them Feb 21 02:07
twitter hmph, looks like Adobe has some holes in pdf.  I’m more used to flash blowing things up. Feb 21 02:10
twitter http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?s… Feb 21 02:10
Balrog I heard. Adobe can’t even write code that works with a case sensitive FS D: Feb 21 02:10
Balrog well I’m out. Feb 21 02:10
*Balrog has quit () Feb 21 02:10
twitter Ick, why did you want to watch that Novell advertisement on YouTube.  The main dude was a Windows user, or his computer looked an awful lot like like W2K or XP with “classic” GUI. Feb 21 02:15
twitter Nice buildings, beautiful people, butt ugly GUI.  One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong.  Can you guess …. Feb 21 02:16
twitter hmmm, Saab is bankrupt.  http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b6e794… Feb 21 02:22
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 21 02:26:52 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovell Feb 21 02:26
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: “Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications” [publicly logged] Feb 21 02:26
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Sun Oct 5 19:20:28 2008 Feb 21 02:26
-ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation. Feb 21 02:26
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel Feb 21 02:26
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz Feb 21 02:27
schestowitz Ahhhh,…. I see… Feb 21 02:30
schestowitz As I suspected, Google breaks YouTube for use with certain plugins Feb 21 02:30
schestowitz The last time they did this, it took me like 2 hours (!!) to spot the source of the issue Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz This time it was faster Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz It worked on Konqueror, so I knew it was a plugin Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz Disabling FLashblock did the trick Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz And earlier today I did read about YouTube making some changes, I just couldn’t recall what they involved. Feb 21 02:31
schestowitz Saab goes sub… (sub-crime?) GM must be dependent on you taxpayers now… looted by so-called “stimulus” (Orwellian term) Feb 21 02:34
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schestowitz Yahoo buys something < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquir… >  “SEARCH engine Yahoo which has been in the doldrums for a year after failing to take Microsoft’s offer of a buy out, has bought Softbank’s IDC outfit.” Feb 21 02:38
schestowitz Why the USA Economy is failing…  http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=51   (“Something called GREED.”) Feb 21 02:47
schestowitz Ouch! http://www.aforgenet.com/ “AForge.NET is a C# framework designed for developers and researchers in the fields of Computer Vision and Artificial Intelligence – image processing, neural networks, genetic algorithms, machine learning, robotics, etc.” Feb 21 02:50
schestowitz Why was this in FP of FSD? Feb 21 02:50
schestowitz http://www.lessig.org/blog/2009/02/from_… Feb 21 03:03
*burmas (n=thomas@249-186-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 21 03:03
*mib_ixld5e (i=8258be83@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8d02eb91c83aa771) has joined #boycottnovell Feb 21 03:25
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