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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 29th, 2009 – Part 3

Posted in IRC Logs at 1:25 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


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Balrog then what is it? Apr 29 15:52
Balrog or what do you think it is * Apr 29 15:52
schestowitz Anyway, that ZDNet FUS bothers me Apr 29 15:53
schestowitz Comes fro  the lair of Ou et al Apr 29 15:53
schestowitz TechRepublic Apr 29 15:53
schestowitz Some Windows/cCompTIA guy  spreads Linux FUD Apr 29 15:53
Balrog :/ Apr 29 15:53
schestowitz Pretending to be writing about “open source security” Apr 29 15:53
schestowitz Very typical Apr 29 15:53
Balrog url? Apr 29 15:53
Balrog                       http://www.zdnetasia.com/techguid… Apr 29 15:54
Balrog sorry Apr 29 15:54
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schestowitz Accumulate damages caused by Windows/oft Apr 29 15:57
schestowitz Serve the bill every month to Microsoft/Windows users Apr 29 15:58
schestowitz They can take the tab Apr 29 15:58
trmanco Time for a banshee fork/port to c++ Apr 29 15:58
schestowitz That’s one option Apr 29 15:58
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trmanco schestowitz, does that option exist? -> http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content… Apr 29 15:59
MinceR :D Apr 29 15:59
schestowitz Sys-con (shills) spread a lot of Ballnux/Windows whitepapers ATM: http://opensource.sys-con.com… Apr 29 15:59
trmanco :-p Apr 29 15:59
schestowitz Lots of ballnux Apr 29 15:59
schestowitz trmanco: it should Apr 29 15:59
trmanco hehe Apr 29 15:59
schestowitz Does Cisco even count as much of a s/w company or is Asay being an ignorant non-programmer again? http://news.cnet.com/8301-… Apr 29 16:02
schestowitz Cisco, unlike IBM, makes a lot of its money selling equipment. Apr 29 16:02
schestowitz Titles should say somthing not about “software” in particular Apr 29 16:02
schestowitz Balrog: oh wait Apr 29 16:03
schestowitz Anroid FUD, eh Eruaran? Apr 29 16:03
schestowitz You know why? Apr 29 16:03
schestowitz 1.5 release of SDK Apr 29 16:03
schestowitz They need to pollute the news to scare away developers Apr 29 16:03
schestowitz Talking point: “if you develop for it, there will be no users” Apr 29 16:04
Balrog yes, android FUD Apr 29 16:04
Balrog heh. Apr 29 16:04
schestowitz About the MSNBC FUD:  http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/24… Apr 29 16:05
schestowitz They forgot iPhone too is just one phone Apr 29 16:05
Eruaran Microsoft are failing. Apr 29 16:06
MinceR they should hurry up and die. Apr 29 16:07
Eruaran Their Vista7 RC is all about feeding the media Apr 29 16:08
Balrog yes. Apr 29 16:08
Eruaran Ubuntu is building towards a critical mass I think Apr 29 16:09
Eruaran Its no surprise you get articles appearing on websites within a week or so of Ubuntu Jaunty’s release, announcing the impending availability of Windows 7 RC1… Apr 29 16:10
Eruaran I saw an article about Microsoft trying to do social networking with “Vine” Apr 29 16:13
Eruaran Paid subscription… Apr 29 16:13
Eruaran lol Apr 29 16:13
Balrog ?!? Apr 29 16:14
Eruaran serious Apr 29 16:14
schestowitz Eruaran: hehe Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz Vista7 articles Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz Notice how NOBODY mentioned Vista anymore Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz Not tyhe press, not people Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz That’s intentional Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz It’s what Microsoft wanted Apr 29 16:15
Eruaran yep Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz It become an epic, legendary failure Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz So it had to — by its own admission — chahnge the topic Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz Last week in the news Apr 29 16:15
schestowitz In headlines: “Vista” 2 time, “Windows 7″ 19 times Apr 29 16:16
Eruaran Dictionary entry for “Fail”: see “Windows Vista” Apr 29 16:16
schestowitz It figures Apr 29 16:16
schestowitz Even if there’s news about VIsta, MS will keep quiet about it Apr 29 16:16
schestowitz It encourages negative discussions. Apr 29 16:16
schestowitz I HATE the ‘press’ Apr 29 16:16
schestowitz Like ‘Times’, ‘BBC’, ‘CNN’ Apr 29 16:17
schestowitz Michael Moore giving it to CNN. http://www.youtube.com/w… Apr 29 16:17
schestowitz “Well!! I guess we’ll talk again in 3 years” (from memory) Apr 29 16:17
schestowitz There needs to be a segment like this in CNN every 6 hours Apr 29 16:17
schestowitz I dropped my CNN RSS feed last week also (for “technology”) Apr 29 16:18
schestowitz They cover dolphin and stuff rather than corruption where it really matters, esp. now. Apr 29 16:18
Balrog schestowitz: <http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid…> “Is Apache Or GPL Better For Open-Source Business?” Apr 29 16:18
Balrog “Eric Raymond argues that the GPL is ‘a confession of fear and weakness’ that ‘slows down open-source adoption’ because of the fear and uncertainty the GPL provokes.” Apr 29 16:18
schestowitz ESR :| Apr 29 16:19
schestowitz I saw it some days ago Apr 29 16:19
MinceR wow, he’s really a nutcase now Apr 29 16:19
schestowitz “‘slows down open-source adoption’ because of the fear and uncertainty the GPL provokes.”” Apr 29 16:19
schestowitz Haha. Apr 29 16:19
schestowitz Who from? Apr 29 16:19
schestowitz ESR? Apr 29 16:19
schestowitz Yes, FUD from ESR Apr 29 16:19
Eruaran o_0 Apr 29 16:20
schestowitz Microsoft is bad because I say it’s bad Apr 29 16:20
schestowitz Circular logic Apr 29 16:20
Eruaran ESR losing the plot ? Apr 29 16:20
schestowitz Losing the gun Apr 29 16:20
schestowitz *guns Apr 29 16:20
Eruaran He’s got a few horses loose in the top paddock. Apr 29 16:22
Eruaran or sheep Apr 29 16:22
Omar87 schestowitz: What do you think of Samba? Is it bad too? Apr 29 16:32
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schestowitz Omar87: nope Apr 29 16:37
schestowitz Different scenario Apr 29 16:37
schestowitz Glyn Moody wrote about it Apr 29 16:37
schestowitz But in my mind, the key is that we don’t need Mono Apr 29 16:38
schestowitz We have other PLs Apr 29 16:38
schestowitz And they run on Windows too Apr 29 16:38
schestowitz Java, C, etc Apr 29 16:38
schestowitz Samba is another can of worms Apr 29 16:38
schestowitz And the EU handled it differently Apr 29 16:38
schestowitz http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/… Apr 29 16:38
schestowitz We must hit Microsoft where it HURTS. Not market share, but MARGINS. ISVs can do so too. Apr 29 16:41
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tessier_ How do you calculate margins on software? Apr 29 16:49
*tessier_ is less and less a fan of esr also Apr 29 16:50
schestowitz tessier: development cost/sales revenue or something like that, I guess Apr 29 16:53
tessier_ Right. And by that measure their margins are HUGE. Apr 29 16:54
tessier_ And will be very difficult to hurt. Apr 29 16:54
schestowitz Are Xbox margins huge? Apr 29 17:07
schestowitz How about MSN/Live? Apr 29 17:07
schestowitz And Windows Mobile? Apr 29 17:07
schestowitz And Zune? Apr 29 17:07
_boo_ idk what’s msn/live even Apr 29 17:16
_boo_ and forgot what zune is Apr 29 17:17
schestowitz US technology panel: by megacorps for megacorps?  http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/29/sc… Apr 29 17:18
schestowitz MinceR: see the photo. Maybe you’ll recognise it Apr 29 17:18
MinceR hungarian parliament? Apr 29 17:19
MinceR oh, the url gives it away Apr 29 17:19
Balrog schestowitz: LLVM is very promising Apr 29 17:20
MinceR i just don’t see the connection Apr 29 17:20
Balrog though it is bsd-licensed Apr 29 17:20
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Balrog http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/… Apr 29 17:36
Balrog so much fud from the commenters :( Apr 29 17:36
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oso`perezoso hi Apr 29 17:43
oso`perezoso lol Apr 29 17:43
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schestowitz Hey Apr 29 17:49
schestowitz What’s up? Apr 29 17:49
oso`perezoso mm.. interesting any links to substantiate such a strong accusation? Apr 29 17:49
schestowitz Which one/s? Apr 29 17:49
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oso`perezoso ‘sever implications’ Apr 29 17:52
oso`perezoso I mean this is a bold claim to make so I sorta expected to have some grounds. Apr 29 17:55
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schestowitz Watch the new post titled “The Big Australian Press: “Microsoft Has Not Ruled Out Buying a Linux Company”” http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/29/on… Apr 29 17:56
schestowitz oso`perezoso: in the title? Apr 29 17:57
oso`perezoso nor the title neither the topic got links Apr 29 17:59
oso`perezoso wouldn’t be buying linux firms plant a open source trojan from within in m$$?? Apr 29 18:00
oso`perezoso I mean GPL is not reversible. Apr 29 18:01
schestowitz Yes Apr 29 18:01
schestowitz But Microsoft is miserable Apr 29 18:01
schestowitz It can hope to sell proprietary alongside or in addition to FOSS Apr 29 18:01
schestowitz It’s not so far fetched Apr 29 18:01
schestowitz But… Apr 29 18:01
schestowitz If it distributed GPLv3-ed s/w, that would get complicated Apr 29 18:02
oso`perezoso I’ll read your link Apr 29 18:04
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oso`perezoso so this is squarely aimed at $u$e then? Apr 29 18:04
oso`perezoso since $u$e is Novell’s distro. Apr 29 18:05
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schestowitz Linux’s ARM getting stronger against Wintel: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/… Apr 29 18:06
schestowitz oso`perezoso: what specifically aimed at SUSE? Apr 29 18:06
oso`perezoso these accusations Apr 29 18:08
schestowitz Oh, not again… SJVN joins the FUD party. http://practical-tech.com/develo… Apr 29 18:08
schestowitz oso`perezoso: it started with Novell Apr 29 18:08
oso`perezoso go linux go!! Apr 29 18:08
schestowitz There are more vendors, but Novell has the tightest relationship Apr 29 18:08
oso`perezoso this is really odd. Why on earth linux vendors would willingly side with m$$?? I mean linux got a strong foundation to defend and support any project. Linux Foundation. Not to mention HEAVY WEIGHT big iron backing us up Apr 29 18:10
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schestowitz oso`perezoso: Microsoft paid them Apr 29 18:13
schestowitz $240,000,000 Apr 29 18:13
schestowitz And beyond Apr 29 18:13
schestowitz Quiz: History of Sun Microsystems Quiz < http://www.technologyandbusiness.com.au/pc… > Apr 29 18:13
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oso`perezoso these are companies that long ago longed freeing from the yokes of m$$. Apr 29 18:18
schestowitz RIAA settles for $7,000 after 4 years pursuing NY mum < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0… > Apr 29 18:22
schestowitz Some artists want to get off the yokes of MAFIAA Apr 29 18:22
schestowitz YouTube gives a good platform to many Apr 29 18:23
oso`perezoso err.. not only youtube, new ways of producing are freeing artist from MAFIAA Apr 29 18:26
schestowitz Exec jumps from one Microsoft puppet to another: Top EMC exec jumps ship for HP < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04… > Apr 29 18:29
schestowitz oso`perezoso: of course Apr 29 18:29
schestowitz “Installed Jaunty Jackalope with Wubi. Definitely feels like a smoother UI on my Lenovo.” http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2009/04/j… Apr 29 18:34
oso`perezoso LMAO@puppetry Apr 29 18:35
schestowitz Well, weasel word Apr 29 18:35
oso`perezoso did you hear about m$$ hiring the highest ranking CPU designer from Sun Microsystems? Apr 29 18:36
schestowitz Just meaning when a company serves another. Like the US and Canada sometimes Apr 29 18:36
schestowitz oso`perezoso: no big deal that Apr 29 18:36
schestowitz He had to find /some/ place to work Apr 29 18:36
schestowitz Oracle won’t do much h/w Apr 29 18:37
oso`perezoso I don’t know if are familiar but in Slashdot there was this article about m$$ entering in the CPU industry in the near future Apr 29 18:38
schestowitz oso`perezoso: It would not surprise me Apr 29 18:40
schestowitz Found today: http://www.wwj.com/B-ham-Native–Ex-… “a former Microsoft Corp. executive. He says the days of proprietary software are numbered and companies like Microsoft are likely doomed” Apr 29 18:40
schestowitz Their business model is dying Apr 29 18:40
schestowitz They try h/w now Apr 29 18:40
schestowitz They fail badly Apr 29 18:40
schestowitz Zune=disaster Apr 29 18:40
schestowitz XBox=billions in losses Apr 29 18:40
schestowitz SaaS= billions in losses(MSN/Live Apr 29 18:41
schestowitz They still have some bright people (even if they are criminal or unethical) Apr 29 18:41
schestowitz They need to put these people to use where they can make a PROFIT Apr 29 18:41
schestowitz In most divisions (ping tessier ) Microsoft is LOSING money. And software margins erode quickly. Apr 29 18:41
oso`perezoso lol Apr 29 18:43
oso`perezoso the interesting thing is that they try to copy stuff from companies that themselves innovated that specific product and were succesful. Apr 29 18:43
oso`perezoso apple=ipod, sony=ps2,ps3, google etc Apr 29 18:44
oso`perezoso and they do those thing simply by pouring $$$ on their projects but lack the innovative and creativity edge. Apr 29 18:45
schestowitz You forgot key ones Apr 29 18:45
schestowitz Adobe Apr 29 18:45
schestowitz x3 Apr 29 18:45
schestowitz Photoshop = Microsoft called its clone off Apr 29 18:45
schestowitz Flash = MS is nowhere, still bribing for Silver Lie deals Apr 29 18:45
oso`perezoso yeah just about anything. Apr 29 18:46
schestowitz XPS = seen it recently? Enough said… since 2005. Apr 29 18:46
schestowitz PDF is even embraced by MS now Apr 29 18:46
oso`perezoso but’s true that their business model won’t last. Apr 29 18:46
schestowitz They can’t quite monetise XPS anyway. Same with HD that they gave to JPEG Apr 29 18:46
schestowitz oso`perezoso: that’s why they leech via Novell Apr 29 18:47
schestowitz Novell: “yes, we signed a patent deal, blah blah” Apr 29 18:47
schestowitz Microsoft: “now y’all need to pay us” Apr 29 18:47
oso`perezoso look at the router industry, two years ago when I was trying to flash openwrt I found out that brands were using propiertary stuff and so on. I checked back recently to update and guess what. Apr 29 18:48
schestowitz Here’s a Microsoft employee advancing Ballmer et al today: http://tirania.org/blog/archive… Apr 29 18:48
oso`perezoso ALL the mayor brands switched to Openwrt!!!!!! Apr 29 18:48
oso`perezoso I was flaggerblsated!! Apr 29 18:48
oso`perezoso not exactly openwrt but the same with their own custom modifications!!! Apr 29 18:49
schestowitz LOL Apr 29 18:49
schestowitz flaggerblsated Apr 29 18:49
schestowitz flabbergasted? Apr 29 18:49
schestowitz There’s a GPL suit maybe Apr 29 18:50
oso`perezoso lol yeah. Apr 29 18:50
schestowitz Controversy Haunts Linux-based DD-WRT– GPL Violator? Betrayer of Open Source? < http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet… > Apr 29 18:50
oso`perezoso err, well linux gotta keep a eye on them. :D Apr 29 18:51
oso`perezoso I think companies are realizing how open source can help their products better by streamlining the drivers/software development and delivering bettor products. Apr 29 18:52
schestowitz zoobab01: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_… Apr 29 18:53
oso`perezoso this famous guy writing drivers for just about any webcam out there got support from Logitech Creative Labs etc. Apr 29 18:53
oso`perezoso I think companies feel like this when a driver not their own is making success, they get envious so they open the source and keep it in their site :D Apr 29 18:55
schestowitz Open Source Jobs: Olliance Group is Growing < http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/04/29/… > Apr 29 18:55
schestowitz Yes, a French man. Apr 29 18:56
schestowitz it was misstated Apr 29 18:56
oso`perezoso yep Apr 29 18:56
schestowitz There’s lots of overlap in driver development there Apr 29 18:56
schestowitz He didn’t write drivers for 200+ devices ONE BY ONE Apr 29 18:56
oso`perezoso I know, but maintains Apr 29 18:56
oso`perezoso do you code?? Apr 29 18:57
oso`perezoso lol@Olliance!!! Apr 29 18:57
oso`perezoso Open + Alliance = Olliance?? Apr 29 18:57
schestowitz ODF news is currently floored by news about the company that attacked ODF endlessly Apr 29 18:59
schestowitz They cheer over something they’ll try to just screw Apr 29 18:59
schestowitz wait and watch Apr 29 18:59
schestowitz oso`perezoso: Yes, I code Apr 29 18:59
oso`perezoso I don’t Apr 29 18:59
schestowitz Never done drivers Apr 29 18:59
oso`perezoso ODF is the good one or evil? Apr 29 19:00
schestowitz Greg K-H from Novell wrote some tutorials IIRCt Apr 29 19:00
schestowitz There’s more volunteers for drivers work than drivers to be done Apr 29 19:00
schestowitz The good one Apr 29 19:00
schestowitz Although IBM needs to be watched. Oracle too. Apr 29 19:00
schestowitz If they collude with MS, then that’s the end of that Apr 29 19:00
oso`perezoso the end of whon? Apr 29 19:02
oso`perezoso m$ can’t pick a fight with Oracle and IBM Apr 29 19:02
oso`perezoso Oracle that recently   bought Sun?? no way Apr 29 19:02
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schestowitz Manchester, UK – MIT’s FabLab scheme is adding the UK to its growing network. < http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp… > Apr 29 19:07
schestowitz oso`perezoso: no, I was thinking about something else Apr 29 19:08
schestowitz Grouping over standards Apr 29 19:08
schestowitz Marbux wrote about it last year Apr 29 19:08
schestowitz There may be substance to that Apr 29 19:08
schestowitz Some kind of a ceasefire from Sutor et al Apr 29 19:08
schestowitz Welcome to the Ubuntu-Women website < http://ubuntu-women.org/ > Apr 29 19:09
schestowitz This is good in a way. Not separation based on gender, but it’s an indication of growth. Apr 29 19:09
DaemonFC http://www.istartedsomething.com/2… Apr 29 19:09
DaemonFC heh Apr 29 19:09
oso`perezoso LMAO@Ubuntu-women!! Apr 29 19:10
DaemonFC not touching that one Apr 29 19:11
schestowitz Does corporate hog farming breed swine flu? < http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/… > Apr 29 19:11
schestowitz Hehe. Extras. Apr 29 19:11
schestowitz Still not arrived at the scene like promised, eh? Apr 29 19:12
schestowitz Where are people lining up for refunds? Apr 29 19:12
schestowitz Or class action? Apr 29 19:12
schestowitz They have complained since 2007 Apr 29 19:12
schestowitz BTW I haven’t opened that URL yet. istartedsomething is a bit of a Microsoft guerrilla marketing blog IMHO. Apr 29 19:12
DaemonFC “Update 2: It looks like Microsoft Australia even offered someone a downgrade from Ultimate to Home Premium over at the Neowin forums because he thought he wasn’t getting enough value.” Apr 29 19:13
DaemonFC lmao Apr 29 19:13
DaemonFC the Ultimate version’s main thing is it has everything from Business and Home Premium Apr 29 19:14
DaemonFC Home Premium doesn’t have the policy editors, volume shadow service, etc Apr 29 19:14
DaemonFC I know there’s other limits on it Apr 29 19:15
schestowitz CSS naked: http://thenextweb.com/2009/04/28… Apr 29 19:15
DaemonFC it’s so close in Price to Business that you may as well get Ultimate Apr 29 19:16
oso`perezoso neowin is pro-linux or m$$?? Apr 29 19:16
DaemonFC because ate that point you’re talking $20 Apr 29 19:16
DaemonFC *at Apr 29 19:16
schestowitz oso`perezoso: yes Apr 29 19:16
schestowitz We have posts about that Apr 29 19:16
schestowitz Also pro-SUSE, obviouslty Apr 29 19:16
DaemonFC Neowin posts some stuff I download occasionally Apr 29 19:16
oso`perezoso ah ok Apr 29 19:16
DaemonFC they had the uxtheme multi-patcher and some themes Apr 29 19:17
DaemonFC I think removing Aero Glass from Vista Basic was the biggest reason most people didn’t buy it Apr 29 19:17
oso`perezoso ok cool conversation Apr 29 19:18
DaemonFC there was a way to hack around that and re-enable it though Apr 29 19:18
oso`perezoso gonna read some of the links you posted. Apr 29 19:18
oso`perezoso I could’nt keep up with them all :) Apr 29 19:18
DaemonFC They crippled Vista Basic beyond belief Apr 29 19:18
DaemonFC it couldn’t even do some things XP Home could Apr 29 19:18
oso`perezoso what a complete retarded decision not include Aero for everyone Apr 29 19:19
DaemonFC I don’t mean “Go find other software to do that”, I mean they made Windows refuse at the kernel level Apr 29 19:19
DaemonFC things like home networking/shares Apr 29 19:19
DaemonFC it had limited XBOX 360 connectivity, but no more than XP Home with Windows Media Player 11 Apr 29 19:20
schestowitz Check out this one: http://linspire.com/ Apr 29 19:20
oso`perezoso wow, that’s why I was having a hell’ve time trying to share folders between OSX and Vista?? Apr 29 19:20
DaemonFC if you had Vista Basic? probably Apr 29 19:20
oso`perezoso is it confirmed that Vista Basic is b0orkd for sharing? Apr 29 19:21
schestowitz They seem to have totally elimated old site content Apr 29 19:21
DaemonFC Home Premium at least gives you enough networking ability to set up a small LAN Apr 29 19:21
DaemonFC and use your XBOX 360 :P Apr 29 19:21
schestowitz Maybe not… http://www.google.com/search?q=s… Apr 29 19:21
DaemonFC yeah Apr 29 19:21
DaemonFC Microsoft even says it Apr 29 19:21
DaemonFC in their comparison Apr 29 19:21
oso`perezoso ok, it wasn’t for me really, but a friend that has hell’uv issues with it I was trying to, help Apr 29 19:22
oso`perezoso heck, I got  multiple flavors of vi$ta and runnig  m$7 :D Apr 29 19:22
DaemonFC yeah, you will definitely notice crippling problems with Basic Apr 29 19:22
DaemonFC you have to get Business or Ultimate to escape that really Apr 29 19:23
DaemonFC Which i kind of the point Apr 29 19:23
DaemonFC *is Apr 29 19:23
DaemonFC Home Basic can also access 8 gigs of RAM, max, even the 64-bit version Apr 29 19:24
oso`perezoso crazy. Apr 29 19:24
_boo_ lol Apr 29 19:24
DaemonFC one of the limitations they imposed to keep anyone from using it as a cheap server Apr 29 19:24
_boo_ they’re limiting resources XD Apr 29 19:24
oso`perezoso err.. I only have 2GB lol Apr 29 19:24
oso`perezoso well, you can’t really blame them. Apr 29 19:24
DaemonFC 32-bit versions can access 2.8-3.2 gigs of RAM Apr 29 19:25
oso`perezoso that’s what they do, marketing. Apr 29 19:25
DaemonFC due to limitations in the PAE kernel Apr 29 19:25
_boo_ for what not to blame? Apr 29 19:25
_boo_ DaemonFC, 3.5 at max may be? Apr 29 19:25
DaemonFC meh, I got 3.2 gigs max Apr 29 19:25
oso`perezoso so they offer the cheapest crap one then the next one up more expensive with all the bells and whistles. Apr 29 19:25
DaemonFC I suppose if you have integrated video then 3.5 sounds possible Apr 29 19:25
DaemonFC but then the shared memory the video card takes will be about 256 megs anyway Apr 29 19:26
DaemonFC so have fun with that Apr 29 19:26
oso`perezoso So think a lusr walking into Best Buy and talking to the seller. Apr 29 19:26
DaemonFC Vista Basic was there to provide a $99 upgrade over XP Home Apr 29 19:26
oso`perezoso is like selling cars. ‘Well this one is better includes AC, radio Cushionde seats, etc’ Apr 29 19:26
DaemonFC which was intended to cover up the price increase on the one you want to use Apr 29 19:26
DaemonFC that way they had the $99 upgrade price point so you don’t feel cheated that the $160 upgrade is the cheapest one there Apr 29 19:27
DaemonFC the customer feels like they chose to spend another $61 Apr 29 19:27
DaemonFC B-) Apr 29 19:27
oso`perezoso you can’t blame m$$ really for anything. The alternatives are out there, ppl choose to go by marketing, then let them spend $$ for a cripple OS Apr 29 19:27
_boo_ why? Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFC not like they HAD to spend another $651 to get it to do anything useful Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFC :P Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFC errr Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFC $61 Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFC it’s a way to hike the price without making it seem unfair Apr 29 19:28
oso`perezoso ppl support m$$ by buying their crap. Apr 29 19:28
schestowitz Heh. 8 People On 1 Motorcycle Going Faster Than A Car In China < http://www.chinasmack.com/pictures/8-… > Apr 29 19:28
DaemonFC old retail trick Apr 29 19:28
_boo_ oso`perezoso, what about the fact that i have to buy shitty vista if i want to buy just good notebook? Apr 29 19:29
DaemonFC if you go in Walmart they may have a piece of shit $30 microwave to get your attention, then you find out it’s a piece of shit, and go on down the aisle Apr 29 19:29
oso`perezoso yes is all about retail and marketing business/decisions NOTHING to do with the lusr’s lol Apr 29 19:29
DaemonFC end up leaving the store with a $70 model Apr 29 19:29
DaemonFC not feeling robbed Apr 29 19:29
oso`perezoso _boo_: slap some other OS on it Apr 29 19:29
DaemonFC Microsoft is essentially doing that with Vista Apr 29 19:29
_boo_ but i have to buy vista Apr 29 19:30
_boo_ it insults me Apr 29 19:30
Balrog oso`perezoso: but MS is still getting money Apr 29 19:30
MinceR oso`perezoso: they’ve still paid the m$ tax Apr 29 19:30
DaemonFC Vista Basic is the piece of shit $30 no-name microwave designed to soften you up for the more expensive models Apr 29 19:30
oso`perezoso LMAO@WalMart microwave example Apr 29 19:30
Balrog _boo_: are there computer companies other than apple that don’t ship windows on a computer? Apr 29 19:30
MinceR there are Apr 29 19:30
Balrog and not just netbooks Apr 29 19:30
MinceR dell? Apr 29 19:30
DaemonFC System76 Apr 29 19:30
DaemonFC and Dell Apr 29 19:30
MinceR (even though they’re assholes) Apr 29 19:30
_boo_ Balrog, yup Apr 29 19:31
DaemonFC Dell has Ubuntu, Suse, and Red Hat Apr 29 19:31
oso`perezoso _boo_: use torrents, there are more fun vi$ta options Apr 29 19:31
DaemonFC but their consumer models have Ubuntu Apr 29 19:31
Balrog Dell’s quality has been quite good lately Apr 29 19:31
Balrog oso`perezoso: the idea is to STOP USING vista Apr 29 19:31
_boo_ there are quite a small amount of notebooks with linux and freedos Apr 29 19:31
Balrog not dl it Apr 29 19:31
MinceR the quality of my almost 1 year old dell laptop is crap. Apr 29 19:31
DaemonFC the ones with Linux are pre-installed Apr 29 19:31
MinceR and their support is crap, too Apr 29 19:31
oso`perezoso Balrog: you don’t have to tell me that :) Apr 29 19:31
DaemonFC the ones with FreeDOS have just the CD with FreeDOS to not break their agreement with MS Apr 29 19:31
DaemonFC that all systems shipped will have an “operating system” Apr 29 19:32
Balrog ah. MS forces that? Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFC yes Apr 29 19:32
Balrog heh Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFC used to be that MS jacked the price on Windows if you shipped any other OS Apr 29 19:32
Balrog but they can’t do that anymore ….? Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFC cause those systems would “simply be formatted and will end up running pirate Windows” Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFC :) Apr 29 19:32
MinceR here in hungary there’s also albacomp and blackpanther Apr 29 19:32
DaemonFC no, the US courts ordered that that was illegal Apr 29 19:32
MinceR and probably others worldwide, but i’m not up-to-date Apr 29 19:32
Balrog obviously. Apr 29 19:33
DaemonFC so Microsoft’s agreement with OEMs is now “All systems sold must include an operating system” Apr 29 19:33
DaemonFC and MS can’t penalize for that OS not being Windows Apr 29 19:33
oso`perezoso wow crazy Apr 29 19:33
Balrog it’s easy enough to install linux or freedos Apr 29 19:33
schestowitz MinceR: I put a photo of Budapest in BN’s FP. Apr 29 19:33
DaemonFC right, but the idea is that every OEM copy of Windows lands them about $50 Apr 29 19:34
DaemonFC so by buying the Windows system, you pay MS $50 Apr 29 19:34
Balrog and those $50 add up Apr 29 19:34
DaemonFC even if it ends up running something else Apr 29 19:34
Balrog yes. something like ‘per-CPU’ licensing Apr 29 19:34
DaemonFC so people were banding up and demanding the $50 be refunded Apr 29 19:34
Balrog though that’s illegal now Apr 29 19:34
DaemonFC so that’s why Dell puts Ubuntu on a few models Apr 29 19:34
oso`perezoso ok is not buying vi$ta but it’s more about showing the ppl how they paid for an utter piece of crap and that there are better alternatives. Apr 29 19:35
DaemonFC HP and Gateway still issue refunds Apr 29 19:35
DaemonFC you have to mail back your Windows disc and COA label Apr 29 19:35
MinceR schestowitz: i’ve seen it, but i don’t know why it’s there :> Apr 29 19:35
oso`perezoso didn’t m$$ server have per ip license? Apr 29 19:35
DaemonFC I mailed my copy of OEM Vista back to Gateway Apr 29 19:35
Balrog oso`perezoso: I don’t mean per IP Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFC got $52 check in the mail Apr 29 19:36
oso`perezoso is illegal to get $50 refund???!! Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFC no Apr 29 19:36
Balrog I meant that for every computer that a company made, they had to pay for a Windows license, whether or not windows was reinstalled Apr 29 19:36
Balrog installed * Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFC Microsoft’s EULA states you have that right Apr 29 19:36
Balrog or included Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFC and the OEM is a party to that agreement Apr 29 19:36
_boo_ oso`perezoso, when you buy server you also buy the license to use it for some number of clients Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFC and shall refund the price Apr 29 19:36
DaemonFC been held up by the US courts that Microsoft and the OEM must refund Windows if you disagree with the EULA and destroy/send back all copies Apr 29 19:37
oso`perezoso _boo_: I can’t even begin to think how a m$$ server sets stuff up Apr 29 19:37
_boo_ there are even calculators for m$ servers Apr 29 19:37
DaemonFC there’s different amounts I’ve seen people get Apr 29 19:37
DaemonFC $52 is the refund for Home Premium Apr 29 19:37
_boo_ it ends up with a good amount of money Apr 29 19:38
DaemonFC I think it goes all the way up to about $100 for Ultimate Apr 29 19:38
oso`perezoso ah ok, that’d be a bit excessive ILLEGAL to ask refund. Apr 29 19:38
DaemonFC no, it’s not illegal Apr 29 19:38
DaemonFC you are exercising your rights under the Windows EULA to demand a refund for the copy of Windows you will not be using Apr 29 19:38
oso`perezoso I understand, I am just saying would some  sort of dictatorial practice. Apr 29 19:39
DaemonFC and they give you back the amount that the OEM has paid Microsoft Apr 29 19:39
DaemonFC OEM Windows price – whatever volume license discount the OEM got Apr 29 19:39
oso`perezoso what if a retailer ask for refunds for all the computers sold and keeps the money and sells the computers  with free  OS such as linux?? :) Apr 29 19:40
DaemonFC are they the end user of the system? Apr 29 19:40
DaemonFC no Apr 29 19:40
DaemonFC the retailer can’t do that Apr 29 19:40
oso`perezoso ah  true. Apr 29 19:40
DaemonFC End User means the person or organization that buys the system at retail and uses it themselves Apr 29 19:40
oso`perezoso I remember seeing RedHat box CD in CompUSA back in 2003 or 2004. Apr 29 19:41
oso`perezoso That’s interesting they been there very early on. Apr 29 19:41
DaemonFC Staples used to have Red Hat and Mandrake Apr 29 19:41
DaemonFC they gave up cause it wasn’t selling well Apr 29 19:41
DaemonFC 8-9 years ago, Linux was not a system most people would want to use Apr 29 19:42
DaemonFC bad performance, crippling driver issues, etc Apr 29 19:42
oso`perezoso but those are server distros, there should be an OS for Desktops users Apr 29 19:42
DaemonFC and you had to pay for it or download several CDs on likely a dial up connection Apr 29 19:42
oso`perezoso lol Apr 29 19:42
DaemonFC so it wasn’t, really freely available Apr 29 19:42
oso`perezoso i only noticed red hat back then because I started using linux. I didn’t buy anything, Gentoo here. Apr 29 19:43
schestowitz MinceR: cause of Stock Exchange Apr 29 19:43
DaemonFC Red Hat actually gave up trying to make any money on desktop Linux over 10 years ago Apr 29 19:43
schestowitz It’s always an Hungarian site that I use for free pics Apr 29 19:43
oso`perezoso a lot of ppl aren’t aware about Linux Apr 29 19:43
DaemonFC that announcement a few weeks ago by their CEO is not new or exciting Apr 29 19:44
oso`perezoso LMAO!!! Apr 29 19:44
schestowitz They can afford to wait Apr 29 19:44
schestowitz Others develop Linux for them Apr 29 19:44
schestowitz Mandriva, Ubuntu… Apr 29 19:44
MinceR schestowitz: oh. Apr 29 19:44
schestowitz When Red Hat wants to enter the destkop it just takes the latest peices Apr 29 19:45
DaemonFC Ubuntu doesn’t develop anything Apr 29 19:45
DaemonFC Mandriva does a little Apr 29 19:45
schestowitz It does it share of stuff too, e.g. pulseaudio Apr 29 19:45
oso`perezoso Linux Desktop 10 years ago??? That sounds quite impossible, with what kernel 2.2 and one video/audio code availble and three drivers working?? Apr 29 19:45
schestowitz Mandriva does KDE stuff, still. Apr 29 19:45
schestowitz RPMs Apr 29 19:45
DaemonFC Red Hat and Novell basically represent a half of the kernel work Apr 29 19:45
DaemonFC and probably at least 1/4th of X Apr 29 19:45
schestowitz I used Red Hat in 2000 Apr 29 19:45
schestowitz Desktop Apr 29 19:46
schestowitz KDE 2 IIRC Apr 29 19:46
schestowitz It was VERY usable Apr 29 19:46
schestowitz Also great for development Apr 29 19:46
DaemonFC Ubuntu has released less than 200 patches since 2005 Apr 29 19:46
schestowitz And it had ncie transparent windows decorations that looked nifty at the time Apr 29 19:46
MinceR 205628 < DaemonFC> Ubuntu doesn’t develop anything Apr 29 19:46
DaemonFC Fedora has released over 40,000 Apr 29 19:46
MinceR m$ FUD Apr 29 19:46
schestowitz Windows was just ugly (win2k or win98 on my laptop) Apr 29 19:46
oso`perezoso wow you are leaving out IBM and Sun Apr 29 19:46
DaemonFC it’s not FUD, Ubuntu is a passive consumer Apr 29 19:46
DaemonFC they are not an authority on anything but Ubuntu Apr 29 19:47
schestowitz DaemonFC: Fedora claims 100k downloads/week nw Apr 29 19:47
schestowitz F10 Apr 29 19:47
MinceR m$ FUD saying it isn’t FUD Apr 29 19:47
MinceR how surprising! Apr 29 19:47
Balrog are you talking about the kernel or the other software? Apr 29 19:47
schestowitz Many in places like NASA use it Apr 29 19:47
Balrog Ubuntu contributes to other software, AFAIK Apr 29 19:47
DaemonFC if Red Hat and Novell went under, it would be catastrophic, not because of who they are Apr 29 19:47
DaemonFC because of how much work they do that nobody else is stepping up to do Apr 29 19:47
schestowitz DaemonFC: a lot of KDE is built by volunteers Apr 29 19:48
schestowitz like 70% IIRC Apr 29 19:48
DaemonFC some of the people doing it would go to other places and keep doing it Apr 29 19:48
oso`perezoso no, they maintain certain parts and they receive thousands of patches Apr 29 19:48
DaemonFC but you’re still losing a lot of people Apr 29 19:48
oso`perezoso that’s how it works Apr 29 19:48
MinceR DaemonFC: most of those people were doing the same thing elsewhere Apr 29 19:48
DaemonFC The Linux Foundation said that 7 of 10 people working on Linux are paid to do it Apr 29 19:49
schestowitz Nothing happend when reiser dived Apr 29 19:49
schestowitz There are too many DEs and distros Apr 29 19:49
DaemonFC so that’s like the organization Linus Torvalds works at? Apr 29 19:49
DaemonFC not Microsoft? Apr 29 19:49
schestowitz No single point of failure Apr 29 19:49
MinceR RMS wrote most of GNU without being paid for it at all Apr 29 19:49
schestowitz 18 years and still going Apr 29 19:49
oso`perezoso for instance Solaris has been using Gnome as default DE for 10 years Apr 29 19:49
schestowitz Unlike Solaris on the face of it Apr 29 19:49
DaemonFC well, it’s obvious that the kernel was something that the GNU people were out of their league on Apr 29 19:50
DaemonFC they undertook an enormous task without the talent or manpower to do it Apr 29 19:50
MinceR it’s not the same task Apr 29 19:50
oso`perezoso MinceR: what are the GNU parts? the compiler, debugger etc?? Apr 29 19:50
DaemonFC and it’s as old as I am and still is not good enough to want to use Apr 29 19:50
MinceR remember the GNU kernel is a microkernel Apr 29 19:50
MinceR oso`perezoso: command line tools, shell, compiler, linker, assembler, debugger, text editor, way too much stuff to list Apr 29 19:50
_boo_ oso`perezoso, compilers are not developed by 1 man Apr 29 19:50
Balrog DaemonFC: when Linux was made, most work on Hurd stopped Apr 29 19:50
DaemonFC their kernel layout is a monumental act of stupidity, it has dubious or no benefit over Linux Apr 29 19:51
DaemonFC even if it worked as stated (it doesn’t) Apr 29 19:51
MinceR oso`perezoso: i don’t know what exactly was written by RMS, but i’ve seen credits to him all over the manpages Apr 29 19:51
oso`perezoso RMS is Stallman or Raymond? Apr 29 19:51
_boo_ stallman Apr 29 19:51
Balrog MinceR: RMS wrote a lot of the early code Apr 29 19:51
MinceR DaemonFC: tell that to Tanenbaum Apr 29 19:51
Balrog others took over later Apr 29 19:51
MinceR Balrog: i suspected so Apr 29 19:51
MinceR i know he wrote all of emacs, at least back then Apr 29 19:52
DaemonFC MINIX works, I don’t see anyone using it Apr 29 19:52
DaemonFC but it does have interesting ideas Apr 29 19:52
MinceR DaemonFC: microkernels are still very new Apr 29 19:52
oso`perezoso lol@minix works Apr 29 19:52
_boo_ minix aint got enough people working on it Apr 29 19:52
DaemonFC no they aren’t Apr 29 19:52
DaemonFC 30 years is new? Apr 29 19:53
_boo_ oso`perezoso, linus was writing linux kernel working in minix Apr 29 19:53
MinceR DaemonFC: ok, tell me one mature mainstream OS using a microkernel on desktop or servers Apr 29 19:53
*oso`perezoso imagines minix being a single CPU driver Apr 29 19:53
Balrog OS X runs a part-microkernel … works well. Apr 29 19:53
MinceR no, osx runs a nightmare Apr 29 19:53
DaemonFC MinceR: They inherently don’t work right Apr 29 19:53
Balrog MinceR: maybe for you Apr 29 19:53
MinceR it’s not a microkernel once you bolt half of freebsd over it in kernelspace Apr 29 19:53
MinceR that’s not how a microkernel works. Apr 29 19:53
DaemonFC so you end up with monolithic+ some features of microkernel Apr 29 19:53
Balrog not for the other 98% of people I meant Apr 29 19:53
Balrog MinceR: I said part Apr 29 19:53
DaemonFC Which is Windows, Darwin/OS X. Linux…. Apr 29 19:53
MinceR the other 98% of people have no idea what a microkernel is Apr 29 19:53
MinceR they eat crApple marketing bullshit Apr 29 19:53
oso`perezoso m$$7 is based on microkernel Apr 29 19:54
MinceR DaemonFC: winnt isn’t a microkernel either Apr 29 19:54
MinceR neither is Linux Apr 29 19:54
oso`perezoso j/k Apr 29 19:54
MinceR modular != microkernel Apr 29 19:54
DaemonFC Windows is a monolithic with some of the features of microkernels Apr 29 19:54
oso`perezoso MinceR: ok, which ones are microkernel? Apr 29 19:54
MinceR DaemonFC: microkernels per definition do not include most of a gui :> Apr 29 19:54
DaemonFC Windows has a lot of common features of Linux Apr 29 19:54
DaemonFC loadable modules, user space driver framework Apr 29 19:54
DaemonFC slow pool thread Apr 29 19:54
MinceR oso`perezoso: there’s Minix and QNX Apr 29 19:55
oso`perezoso MinceR: are they free? Apr 29 19:55
DaemonFC well, it’s a component of Windows, because end users would not buy a kernel Apr 29 19:55
DaemonFC they want something you can use Apr 29 19:55
MinceR QNX might be mainstream in embedded, but i’m not sure Apr 29 19:55
MinceR Minix is certainly not mainstream Apr 29 19:55
MinceR oso`perezoso: Minix is free, QNX isn’t Apr 29 19:55
oso`perezoso LMAO@users nod buying a kernel Apr 29 19:55
MinceR then there’s L4Linux, which is practically a research project Apr 29 19:55
Balrog and Mach 3.0 Apr 29 19:55
MinceR Mach is too, it’s used in HURD, for example Apr 29 19:56
DaemonFC this is from the same “Linux is useless without GNU!!!!!” spammers Apr 29 19:56
MinceR and probably in lots of places Apr 29 19:56
DaemonFC :P Apr 29 19:56
MinceR DaemonFC: Linux works without GNU, see android Apr 29 19:56
MinceR but it’s nothing like what we know Apr 29 19:56
MinceR android sucks Apr 29 19:56
Balrog MinceR: everything you don’t like sucks Apr 29 19:56
_boo_ android is google, ’nuff said Apr 29 19:56
MinceR Balrog: that’s why i don’t like them, surprise surprise Apr 29 19:56
oso`perezoso wow google stripped GPL outta all the code used in android? Apr 29 19:57
Balrog you’re looking from a subjective point of view … the fact that *you* don’t like them doesn’t mean they’re bad Apr 29 19:57
schestowitz minix has just been granted millions in funding Apr 29 19:57
MinceR not all, it’s still Linux-based Apr 29 19:57
schestowitz 3 million euro iirc Apr 29 19:57
schestowitz Intel Releases New Driver, Kills EXA/DRI1 http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page… Apr 29 19:58
MinceR iirc the policy is that they only allow GPL code in the kernel Apr 29 19:58
MinceR not in their crap java userspace Apr 29 19:58
Balrog MinceR: GPL compatible code too? Apr 29 19:58
MinceR Balrog: my point of view is based on technological merit Apr 29 19:58
Balrog doesn’t seem that way. Apr 29 19:58
schestowitz leave google allllllllllone :–((( Apr 29 19:58
schestowitz leave firefox allllllllllone :–((( Apr 29 19:58
oso`perezoso schestowitz: millions from where? do you have a link? you got links for everything Apr 29 19:58
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