Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 8th, 2008

Enter the IRC channel now





*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Sep 08 00:49
*trmanco (n=trmanco@bl5-40-121.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 00:50
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Sep 08 01:02
*neighborlee has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 01:07
*PetoKraus (n=Peter@78-86-98-119.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 01:40
*mib_qqxzna has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 01:55
*libervisco_ (n=daniel@78-1-110-83.adsl.net.t-com.hr) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 02:19
*libervisco has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 08 02:29
*macabe has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 02:33
*macabe (i=43f0d869@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-582d18fc522b48ef) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 02:34
*libervisco_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 02:55
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 03:01
*[H]omer has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 03:26
*seller_liar (n=lucian@189-18-31-186.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 03:54
*PetoKraus (n=Peter@78-86-98-119.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 03:59
*mib_8h2281 (i=7aa751cb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-15b7124a7e14895e) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 04:00
*mib_8h2281 has quit (Client Quit)Sep 08 04:01
*dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 04:18
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 05:36
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 05:37
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 05:37
*dsmith_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 05:38
quanta_so I heard that some people here consider software to be mathSep 08 05:44
*quanta_ is now known as quantaSep 08 05:44
quantaI'm curious as to whySep 08 05:44
quantaanybody want to answer?Sep 08 05:46
quantaanybody awake?Sep 08 05:46
schestowitzYes.Sep 08 05:46
schestowitzThere are existing discussions of this point.Sep 08 05:46
quantaI am curious of how this was even thought of because although I haven't done a whole lot of coding, it seems to be a wholly different pursuit than mathematical researchSep 08 05:47
quantaAdmittedly, I've only begun mathematical research this summer, but that's more than most people do in a lifetimeSep 08 05:49
schestowitzhttp://www.amazon.com/Math-You-Cant-Use-Co...Sep 08 05:49
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 05:50
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 05:50
quanta_sorry, bad connectionSep 08 05:50
seller_liarquanta_: for me software should not patented, because the software only is done one timeSep 08 05:52
quanta_that's not what I'm askingSep 08 05:52
quanta_I'm asking how it's like mathSep 08 05:52
quanta_or not likeSep 08 05:52
quanta_IS mathSep 08 05:52
quanta_because I'm not seeing itSep 08 05:53
seller_liarquanta_: people who patents software have a real propose to make a lot of money in short timeSep 08 05:53
seller_liarquanta_: algoritmsSep 08 05:53
quanta_algorithms alone do not make math thoughSep 08 05:54
seller_liarquanta_:but algorithms uses mathSep 08 05:54
quanta_yes, but architects also use mathSep 08 05:55
quanta_that does not make building design itself mathSep 08 05:55
seller_liarquanta_: I don know nowSep 08 05:56
seller_liarquanta_: why people create some patented software ?Sep 08 05:56
seller_liarquanta_: since begin ,the software developers already thinks in do a lot of moneySep 08 05:57
quanta_Software always struck me as a more of an engineering thingSep 08 05:57
quanta_so a reasonable patent system would make sense to me. I dunno if the current system is reasonable, but that's not really my question.Sep 08 05:58
seller_liarquanta_: proprietary and patented software detroys the consumer control over the product, and gives the control for companiesSep 08 05:58
seller_liarquanta_: for me it's notSep 08 05:58
quanta_not engineering?Sep 08 05:58
seller_liarquanta_: instead of user pay the developer for make a software (in free software for example)  , the developer controls the price in proprietary softwareSep 08 05:59
seller_liarquanta_: m$ for example sell windows in any priceSep 08 05:59
seller_liarquanta_: why the user cannot tell the value the software?Sep 08 05:59
seller_liarquanta_: the system is a complete crapSep 08 05:59
quanta_Value or Price?Sep 08 06:00
quanta_Because he can decide whether or not he wants to pay for itSep 08 06:00
seller_liarquanta_: priceSep 08 06:00
quanta_in other words, its value to himSep 08 06:00
seller_liarquanta_: and value tooSep 08 06:00
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:00
quanta_well, it only seems fair that the price must be set so that the company doesn't lose moneySep 08 06:00
quanta_but that's not my point...Sep 08 06:00
quanta_how is software math?Sep 08 06:01
seller_liarhey, someone have a link about eff and the free software advocacy?Sep 08 06:01
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:01
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:01
quantawith math, I come up with some axioms, perhaps some operations, and then I ask a question about themSep 08 06:01
quantathere are three possiblitiesSep 08 06:01
quantawhen you make a hypothesisSep 08 06:02
quantaA) your rightSep 08 06:02
quantaB) you're wrongSep 08 06:02
quantaandSep 08 06:02
quantaC) the question cannot be answered with your current set of axiomsSep 08 06:02
quantahow you get there is important, but not truly the crucial thing in and of itselfSep 08 06:02
quantaand the answer is determined before you even begin progressing towards itSep 08 06:03
ZiggyFishquanta: who are you arguing with? (I've just joined the chat)Sep 08 06:04
quantaI'm not really arguing with anyone in particularSep 08 06:04
schestowitzNot sure it's an argument per seSep 08 06:04
seller_liarquanta: I do not know nowSep 08 06:04
quantaI just am confused by how software could be considered mathSep 08 06:04
quantathey aren't really the same thingSep 08 06:04
schestowitzIt's the tired discussion about algorithms as maths.Sep 08 06:04
ZiggyFishquanta: are you a programmerSep 08 06:04
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:05
ZiggyFishlolSep 08 06:05
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:05
quantathere is some math that is strongly tied to computer science, but that's not as far as I know the issueSep 08 06:05
ZiggyFishquanta: are you a programmer?Sep 08 06:05
quantanot really, I've done a little bit of coding, but nothing above intro level stuff you'd seeSep 08 06:05
ZiggyFish(need to know, so I can talk to you in the write way)Sep 08 06:06
quantaConversely, I could ask, are you a mathematician?Sep 08 06:06
ZiggyFishno, but do know intermedia mathsSep 08 06:06
quantahmmm.. describe intermediate math pleaseSep 08 06:06
quantalike, set theory? graph theory? vector calculus? some of all?Sep 08 06:08
quanta?Sep 08 06:11
ZiggyFishquanta: programs are made up of commands that move bytes, from one location to another. and inorder to do that. each byte must have an address (like 0x40000000). So say you wanted to copy a string from one location to another (like say you wanted to upper case something), you would first test the value to see if it was between 97 and <what ever the ascii value for 'z' (which to do that is a subtraction of both to see if a cerSep 08 06:11
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:12
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:12
quanta_sorry I missed thatSep 08 06:12
quanta_bad connectionSep 08 06:12
quanta_I caught the first partSep 08 06:12
ZiggyFishquanta: programs are made up of commands that move bytes, from one location to another. and inorder to do that. each byte must have an address (like 0x40000000). So say you wanted to copy a string from one location to another (like say you wanted to upper case something), you would first test the value to see if it was between 97 and <what ever the ascii value for 'z' (which to do that is a subtraction of both to see if a cerSep 08 06:12
quanta_was there anything after?Sep 08 06:12
ZiggyFishnopeSep 08 06:12
quanta_ok, following so farSep 08 06:12
ZiggyFishmy point is all programs are mathematical (even simple ones).Sep 08 06:13
quanta_?Sep 08 06:13
quanta_that's not mathSep 08 06:13
ZiggyFishdefine mathSep 08 06:13
quanta_It's not exactly an easy thing to defineSep 08 06:13
schestowitzIt's a recipe in logic.Sep 08 06:13
schestowitzThere's no device.Sep 08 06:13
quanta_but you start with a set of axiomsSep 08 06:13
quanta_then you ask a question about the properties of some objectSep 08 06:14
seller_liarquanta_: equivalence ,like string manipulation , is proved by axiomsSep 08 06:14
quanta_and attempt to prove something about said propertiesSep 08 06:14
quanta_but that wouldn't be enough on its ownSep 08 06:14
quanta_as my defintion is somewhat looseSep 08 06:14
ZiggyFishwhat seller_liar saidSep 08 06:14
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:15
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:15
quantafor example, one could say I was talking about physics instead, which isn't strictly mathSep 08 06:15
quantasorry for the connectionSep 08 06:15
quantaI can't do anything about itSep 08 06:15
quantaI'm on vacation, and I don't even know where the access point isSep 08 06:16
ZiggyFishalso there is the way in which the movement is done (which uses AND, OR and NOT).Sep 08 06:16
ZiggyFishlolSep 08 06:16
quantayes, logic gatesSep 08 06:17
ZiggyFishyes, which is mathSep 08 06:17
seller_liarboolean logic, is a lot axiomsSep 08 06:17
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:17
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:17
quanta_goddamn connectionSep 08 06:17
ZiggyFishmaybe it's trying to tell you somethingSep 08 06:18
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:18
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:18
quantaindeed, boolean logic is mathematical, but just because a program is based upon it, does not necessarily mean the program is mathSep 08 06:18
quantaphysics uses lots of math, and even sometimes lends itself to mathematical like proofs, yet it is not mathSep 08 06:18
quantaone must be careful to distinguish the application from the thing itselfSep 08 06:19
*ZiggyFish gives upSep 08 06:19
seller_liarquanta: physics  is based in ideas, like mathematics isSep 08 06:19
quantathere are indeed realms of computer science that are math... like asking what network scheme is the most efficient by some metricSep 08 06:19
quantayes, but physics is different, because things are determined empiricallySep 08 06:20
schestowitzThat's not the only point though. Algorithms are a form of expression that's unique.Sep 08 06:20
quantanothing can be determined empirically in mathSep 08 06:20
ZiggyFishanyway on a serious note, does anyone have access to a windows machine?Sep 08 06:20
schestowitzTrivial patents can be a fence you can't hopSep 08 06:20
schestowitzLike paging keys.Sep 08 06:20
ZiggyFishneed to test something in IESep 08 06:20
schestowitzWeb site?Sep 08 06:20
quantayes, some patents can indeed be not necessarily ideal, but that doesn't really apply to my questionSep 08 06:21
ZiggyFishyeahSep 08 06:21
schestowitzbrowsershots.orgSep 08 06:21
ZiggyFishneed to know if this works in IE (the javascript)Sep 08 06:21
ZiggyFishhttp://cwarn.org/Sep 08 06:21
quantaalgorithms are unique? you mean a specific algorithm correct?Sep 08 06:21
quantahowever, there can be multiple algorithms for one type of problemSep 08 06:22
schestowitzProgrammers have copyrights.Sep 08 06:22
quantaon the other hand, I would define a purely mathematical question as having only one answer based upon your set of axioms.Sep 08 06:23
quantafor example, a particular algorithm has only one computational complexity as far as I knowSep 08 06:23
seller_liarschestowitz: someone knows the end since beginingSep 08 06:24
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:24
schestowitzWhat do you mean?Sep 08 06:24
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:24
quanta_(it might be rather complicated, but there's still only one complete answer)Sep 08 06:25
seller_liarschestowitz: see B.F Skinner, it invalidates all patentsSep 08 06:25
schestowitzGot URL?Sep 08 06:25
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:25
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:25
quanta_on the other hand, there can be multiple ways to accomplish some task in programmingSep 08 06:25
quanta_with trees for exampleSep 08 06:25
quanta_you can do breadth first or depth first searchesSep 08 06:25
schestowitzThe point worth making is that swapats promote no development really.Sep 08 06:26
schestowitzProgrammer don't like patents.Sep 08 06:26
seller_liarschestowitz: hehe, sorry roy i do not have one, but search for skinnerSep 08 06:26
quanta_ok, so programmer's don't like patents?Sep 08 06:26
schestowitzI can recall something like this.Sep 08 06:26
seller_liarschestowitz: even the "hardware patents"Sep 08 06:26
quanta_what about the ones that make money off of  it?Sep 08 06:26
seller_liarschestowitz: all patents does not promove nothingSep 08 06:26
schestowitzquanta_: you mean lawyers?Sep 08 06:27
quanta_a programmer can find patents useful as wellSep 08 06:27
seller_liarquanta_: for what?Sep 08 06:27
quanta_obviously lawyers benefit as well thanks to the complexity of patent lawSep 08 06:27
quanta_For example, my father is a veterinarianSep 08 06:27
quanta_and he was not satisfied with current systems for medical recordsSep 08 06:27
quanta_and how to keep them, search the, make them electronically etc.Sep 08 06:28
quanta_so he developed and wrote a program (mostly  on his own, he hired a few guys to help though)Sep 08 06:28
seller_liarquanta_: but see, he does not live lonely , he 's need to use another ideas and need to use another people 'helpSep 08 06:28
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:29
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:29
quantaand went through years of work on everything without seeing a drop of profitSep 08 06:29
seller_liarquanta: so , don work thenSep 08 06:29
quantahe patented his work, so that others couldn't steal all of his workSep 08 06:29
seller_liarschestowitz:sorry , I respect, but your father does not even to begin the projectySep 08 06:29
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:29
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:29
quantathis is beneficial to him and othersSep 08 06:29
seller_liarsoory roy ,is for quantaSep 08 06:29
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:30
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:30
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:30
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:31
quantabecause it provides him with motivation to keep his software easily useable and to distribute it. As well as make it of courseSep 08 06:31
seller_liarquanta: what type of motivation, he does not work if wantsSep 08 06:31
quantaotherwise, some other individual or company could simply copy all his work, sell it, and distribute itSep 08 06:31
quantacan you phrase that question better?Sep 08 06:32
quantaI don't understand what you meanSep 08 06:32
seller_liarquanta: you should know which all this value of this world is the WORKSep 08 06:32
seller_liarquanta: sorrySep 08 06:32
seller_liarquanta: if your father does work only once, and then he should receive money for one daySep 08 06:32
quantahuh? yeah, the work is valuable. That's why he should be allowed to protect itSep 08 06:33
quantawork only once?Sep 08 06:33
quantawhat do you mean once?Sep 08 06:33
seller_liarquanta: one timeSep 08 06:33
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:33
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:33
quantaseems to me like he should make money whenever he sells his software, if he decides to sell itSep 08 06:33
seller_liarquanta: example,Sep 08 06:34
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:34
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:34
seller_liarquanta: a developer works in one day in some software , he should receive money for one day of workSep 08 06:34
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:35
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:35
quantalike salary you mean? because he's being paid by a company?Sep 08 06:35
quantawhat if he's not paid by a company though?Sep 08 06:35
seller_liarquanta: do not workSep 08 06:35
seller_liarquanta: we are freeSep 08 06:36
quantaNot everyone can afford to work for free though.Sep 08 06:36
seller_liarquanta: it's not work for freeSep 08 06:36
seller_liarquanta: work only when is paid for thisSep 08 06:36
seller_liarquanta: if you it's not paid, do not workSep 08 06:37
quantaWhat if you get paid by selling your software?Sep 08 06:37
quantaWhat's wrong with that?Sep 08 06:37
seller_liarquanta: software is developed one timeSep 08 06:37
quantaso?Sep 08 06:37
seller_liarquanta: why receive more than one time of work?Sep 08 06:37
quantabooks are only written one time.Sep 08 06:37
quantaShould all the profit then go to the person who prints themSep 08 06:38
quantaand authors receive no royalties?Sep 08 06:38
seller_liarquanta: no , the person which prints should pay the author one time ,of course, the author have total freedom to want a lot of moneySep 08 06:39
schestowitzBooks have copyrights; so does code.Sep 08 06:39
seller_liarquanta: but it's one time ONLYSep 08 06:39
schestowitzYou can't prevent people from chatting about something they read in a book.Sep 08 06:39
quantaYeah, but you're also not allowed to print the book just because you bought itSep 08 06:39
seller_liarquanta: exampleSep 08 06:40
quantacopyright protections can work too; it's a matter of flexibility, but this distracts from my original questionSep 08 06:40
seller_liarquanta: the author writes the book one time onlySep 08 06:41
seller_liarquanta: mcgraw hill and other companies live a "lies empire"Sep 08 06:42
schestowitzThey probably profit when the author dies too.Sep 08 06:42
seller_liarquanta: and every sand castle should be ruinedSep 08 06:42
quantawell, yeah, royalties probably end then if they didn't beforeSep 08 06:42
quantabut back to original questionSep 08 06:43
quantahow is programming math?Sep 08 06:43
schestowitzThat;s no incentive to create. The dead person doesn't allow existing people to be creative.Sep 08 06:43
quantait does not definitively answer a question like math doesSep 08 06:43
schestowitzWhat patent?Sep 08 06:44
seller_liarquanta: every programming language have theories of computation ,which is based in mathSep 08 06:44
schestowitzShow me an example.Sep 08 06:44
schestowitzquanta: you're obviously here to defend a river or maths monopoly.Sep 08 06:44
quantamaths monopoly?Sep 08 06:44
quantaReally, I'm more bothered by the fact that anyone could consider programming mathSep 08 06:45
quantaI don't care much whether you copyright or patent stuffSep 08 06:45
seller_liarquanta: lisp language is 100% theorySep 08 06:45
quantacurrent patent system is known to be broken of courseSep 08 06:45
seller_liarquanta: c is tooSep 08 06:45
seller_liarquanta: patents SHOULD NOT existSep 08 06:45
quantareally, so there is precisely one way to say... parse text?Sep 08 06:46
schestowitzquanta: depends where.Sep 08 06:46
schestowitzBut the idea of patents in general is challenged by some too.Sep 08 06:46
schestowitzEver Nobel prize winners.Sep 08 06:46
quantaI don't care about the patents. That's not my original question. You guys brought that up.Sep 08 06:46
seller_liarquanta: text, language computation, chionsk theoriesSep 08 06:46
schestowitzYou can to challenge it.Sep 08 06:46
schestowitz*sameSep 08 06:47
schestowitz*cameSep 08 06:47
quantatrue, if it's math patents might not make sense, but that's only if it really is mathSep 08 06:47
quantawhich I've never heard any mathematician call it thatSep 08 06:47
quantaeverSep 08 06:47
quantaa specific piece of software is not mathSep 08 06:47
quantasoftware USES mathSep 08 06:48
seller_liarquanta: every fact is a theoremSep 08 06:48
quantabut so does physicsSep 08 06:48
seller_liarquanta: 1+1Sep 08 06:48
seller_liarquanta: 10x10Sep 08 06:48
quantaso?Sep 08 06:48
seller_liarquanta: but it's uselles to call simple technices of theoremsSep 08 06:48
seller_liarquanta: should not be patentedSep 08 06:48
quanta... that doesn't make it math.Sep 08 06:49
quantaIt'd be silly to patent Newton's laws of motionSep 08 06:49
quantabut they still aren't mathSep 08 06:49
schestowitzhttp://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/educator... (watch refs)Sep 08 06:49
seller_liarquanta: phisycs uses math to prove ideas, without math, there's no physicsSep 08 06:50
seller_liarquanta: physics is based in math theoriesSep 08 06:50
quantaummmm... not reallySep 08 06:51
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:51
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:51
quanta_well, more complex answerSep 08 06:51
quanta_is yes and noSep 08 06:51
quanta_physics is based upon empirical observationSep 08 06:51
quanta_math is the language used to describe itSep 08 06:52
quanta_to perform calculationsSep 08 06:52
quanta_but physics is not mathSep 08 06:52
quanta_similarly, neither is programming mathSep 08 06:52
schestowitzAt a lower level, it is.Sep 08 06:53
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:53
schestowitzThat's just a philosophical recursion now. You're running around the same point.Sep 08 06:53
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:53
schestowitzApplies maths is still maths.Sep 08 06:53
quantait relies upon some mathematical factsSep 08 06:53
schestowitzOwning it is restricting its applicationSep 08 06:53
quantaapplying math does not make something mathSep 08 06:53
quantaif that was so, way too much shit would be mathSep 08 06:54
schestowitzIt's locking down and preventing its use.Sep 08 06:54
quantaI fully agree that you should be allowed to use mathematical facts and techniques all you want.Sep 08 06:54
schestowitzIf I think of 2+2, then multiplying that by 4 and dividing it by two, that's maths.Sep 08 06:54
quantaBut that doesn't make what you do mathSep 08 06:54
schestowitzIf I decide that only I can do this process of changing variable quantities, then I prevent other from doing this.Sep 08 06:55
seller_liarschestowitz: physics is experimental ,envolves works, physics ideas are  math ideasSep 08 06:55
quantaphysics ideas are a blend of mathematics and experimentSep 08 06:56
schestowitzquanta: example, please?Sep 08 06:56
*dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:56
seller_liarquanta: physics ideas =! real physicsSep 08 06:56
schestowitzShow me your dad's patent so that we can criticise it.Sep 08 06:56
quantafor example, an object at rest will tend to stay at rest, and an object in motion will tend to stay in motionSep 08 06:56
seller_liarsorry roy is for quant the text aboveSep 08 06:56
quantano math is requiredSep 08 06:56
seller_liarquanta: logic,ideasSep 08 06:56
*PetoKraus has quit ("The purpose of IRC is to...IDLE...")Sep 08 06:56
quantalogic is not necessarily math. :|Sep 08 06:56
seller_liarquanta: equality,comparasions = mathSep 08 06:56
quantawrongSep 08 06:57
quantablatantly soSep 08 06:57
schestowitzIs poetry patentable?Sep 08 06:57
quantafor example, we might call a border collie and a beagle both dogs, but that is not a mathematical distiinction.Sep 08 06:57
quanta*distinction.Sep 08 06:57
quantaI'm not terribly interested in whether or not it's patentable. The point is that programming isn't math.Sep 08 06:58
seller_liarquanta: logic is  ideas, it's not propertySep 08 06:59
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 06:59
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 06:59
quanta_It involves math, but it isn't math itselfSep 08 06:59
seller_liarquanta_: yes it is because without math the system does not existSep 08 07:00
quanta_so?Sep 08 07:00
quanta_just because you can't do it without something doesn't mean it is that thingSep 08 07:00
quanta_I can't run my car without gasoline, but my car clearly is NOT gasolineSep 08 07:00
quanta_it just uses itSep 08 07:01
schestowitzquanta_: programming is translated to binary codes.Sep 08 07:01
schestowitz000101001011010101010101010101101 ADD 1010101010111010101010101010 ....Sep 08 07:01
quanta_I know thisSep 08 07:01
schestowitzIs that math?Sep 08 07:01
quanta_numbers alone do not make mathSep 08 07:01
quanta_typing a string of numbers is not mathSep 08 07:01
schestowitz*sigh*Sep 08 07:01
quanta_now, you can ask mathematical questions about it perhapsSep 08 07:01
quanta_you can define certain strings of numbers to be setsSep 08 07:02
quanta_and define operations on these objectsSep 08 07:02
seller_liarquanta_: what about the same object gasoline without gasoline it's not gasolineSep 08 07:02
quanta_indeed, gasoline without gasoline is not gasolineSep 08 07:02
seller_liarquanta_: it's hardware ,is a bit diferentSep 08 07:02
quanta_and programming without math might not be so easy or make much sense or even existSep 08 07:03
quanta_but that has nothing to do with it being mathSep 08 07:03
quanta_for example... let's say that we have the letters of the alphabetSep 08 07:03
seller_liarquanta_: it's math, all you use is mathSep 08 07:04
quanta_a, b, c, d, etc. whateverSep 08 07:04
quanta_then lets say a+c=cSep 08 07:04
quanta_b+b=cSep 08 07:04
quanta_basically a is indexed to be like 0Sep 08 07:04
quanta_and z is 25Sep 08 07:04
seller_liarindexing is mathSep 08 07:05
schestowitzquanta_: she me the patent/sSep 08 07:05
quanta_now the symbols have changedSep 08 07:05
seller_liaraddition is mathSep 08 07:05
seller_liarcomparision is math ,variable concept is mathSep 08 07:05
quanta_but let's say we are curious about the propertiesSep 08 07:05
quanta_like is the operation associative?Sep 08 07:05
quanta_is it commutative?Sep 08 07:05
seller_liarall this is proved ,but is so simple which does not really call them of "theorems"Sep 08 07:05
quanta_is there an identity?Sep 08 07:05
quanta_determining such things and proving them is mathSep 08 07:06
quanta_show you the patent/s?Sep 08 07:06
quanta_you expect me to know the number or something?Sep 08 07:06
quanta_I can't even remember what the patent was exactly. I was just pointing out that patents can benefit the creator of software. I didn't necessarily say that was the best way to go about things.Sep 08 07:07
quanta_hell, you might kind of have to patent just so someone else doesn't rape you with their own patent firstSep 08 07:07
quanta_which would suckSep 08 07:08
seller_liarit's not benefical ,if is , it 's a cost of destruction for peopleSep 08 07:08
seller_liarit's only benefical for the "owner" , but it's destructive for all restSep 08 07:08
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:08
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:09
quantayeah, it might not be net beneficial, but this has nothing to do with programming not being math.Sep 08 07:09
*PetoKraus (n=Peter@78-86-98-119.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:10
*dsmith_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:10
quantayou can ask mathematical questions about programming evenSep 08 07:10
quantalike, what is the computational complexity of this algorithm?Sep 08 07:10
quantabut that doesn't make the program that runs the algorithm mathSep 08 07:11
seller_liarquanta: is math, maybe ,can be not only math,envolves artsSep 08 07:11
quantaexactly, it's not just mathSep 08 07:11
seller_liarquanta: envolve other sciences,Sep 08 07:11
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:11
seller_liarquanta: but in theory can not to be patentedSep 08 07:11
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:11
quantait uses mathSep 08 07:11
quantabut it takes much more than mathSep 08 07:11
seller_liarquanta: but if uses math,no patentsSep 08 07:12
quantaand you don't really have to care about the math the same way a mathematician doesSep 08 07:12
seller_liarquanta: and other sciences , no patentsSep 08 07:12
quantano patents on the math part maybeSep 08 07:12
seller_liarquanta: arts , no patentsSep 08 07:12
quantabut perhaps there might be some other element that is considered patentableSep 08 07:12
quantaI'm not a patent lawyerSep 08 07:12
seller_liarquanta: no!Sep 08 07:12
seller_liarquanta: that element exist because the other sciences and math,Sep 08 07:13
seller_liarquanta: remember ,arts =no patentsSep 08 07:13
quantathe point is, you have to show that the whole thing isn't patentableSep 08 07:13
quantanot that math isn't patentableSep 08 07:13
quantabecause programming isn't mathSep 08 07:13
seller_liarquanta: but envolves math ,no patentsSep 08 07:14
ZiggyFishare we still on this topicSep 08 07:14
quantaso?Sep 08 07:14
ZiggyFishso your wrongSep 08 07:14
quantaengineering mechanical devices involves math, and that's patentableSep 08 07:14
seller_liarquanta: in theory everything can not be patenteableSep 08 07:14
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:15
seller_liarquanta: patents are a human tyrannySep 08 07:15
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:15
quantaI think you can see where I'm going with this. Lots of things involve math and are still patentable.Sep 08 07:15
quantaso that alone is not enough.Sep 08 07:15
seller_liarquanta: a mistakeSep 08 07:15
seller_liarquanta: human tyrannySep 08 07:16
quantathat things that involve math can be patented?Sep 08 07:16
seller_liarquanta:someone know the end since beginingSep 08 07:16
ZiggyFishanyway on a serious note, can someone please decrypt this javascript error message that IE gives me. Line 22 Char 17 Error Unknown runtime error, code 0 URL http://cwarn.org/ (not there is no javascript on that line and the script works in firefox and opera.Sep 08 07:16
seller_liarZiggyFish: try konqueror ziggySep 08 07:16
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:16
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:17
quantabasically, you'd kind of have to argue that nearly every patent ought to be null and void since so many will involve math in some way or anotherSep 08 07:17
seller_liarquanta: no , there's more reasonsSep 08 07:17
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:17
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:17
quantabut as long as we're clear on the fact that programming isn't math, it just uses it, then I think I've gotten my point acrossSep 08 07:18
ZiggyFishseller_liar: installing konqueror nowSep 08 07:18
seller_liarquanta: is not ONLY MATH, but is mathSep 08 07:18
seller_liarZiggyFish: okSep 08 07:18
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:18
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:18
ZiggyFishseller_liar: don't you love it when windows gives you so nice messagesSep 08 07:19
schestowitzIn theory, everything *could* be patented.Sep 08 07:19
schestowitzMayths too, even individual words of English.Sep 08 07:19
ZiggyFishyeah, even airSep 08 07:19
schestowitzBut people set boundaries to increase INNOVA~1Sep 08 07:19
quantaIt is often concerned with things like user input, or displaying things and interacting with hardware. None of this is mathSep 08 07:19
ZiggyFishlolSep 08 07:19
schestowitzAnd maths is a step too far. How on earth can a programmer do anything while 10,000 patents out there pertain to ideas?Sep 08 07:19
quantaOh, I agree that people shouldn't be allowed to patent mathSep 08 07:20
schestowitzTry to write a bloody codec.Sep 08 07:20
quantaBecause math is essentially a form of truthSep 08 07:20
quantaYou ask a question and there is an answer, but only oneSep 08 07:20
quantathis is not the case in programmingSep 08 07:20
schestowitzYou then have 'patent pools'. How adorable! A code word for "gentlemen's club". Only rich company are permitted to participate in codecs.Sep 08 07:20
ZiggyFishquanta: not alwaysSep 08 07:20
seller_liarschestowitz: yes roy , again sorry for repetition, search for skinner "someone know the end since beginingSep 08 07:21
quantagiven consistent axioms and some question, there is only one complete answerSep 08 07:21
quantapartial answers don't countSep 08 07:21
quantaanswers can be equivalentSep 08 07:21
seller_liarschestowitz: except the phrase, search only for skinnerSep 08 07:21
schestowitzseller_liar: just look what some guy called Bill Gates said about it.Sep 08 07:21
quantabut then they are the same answerSep 08 07:21
schestowitzThe greedy POS is now defending them.Sep 08 07:21
schestowitzBeing big, they want fences (IBM too) but it's sheer hypocrisy.Sep 08 07:22
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:22
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:22
schestowitzRichard Stallman: "Thanks to Mr. Gates, we now know that an open Internet with protocols anyone can implement is communism; it was set up by that famous communist agent, the US Department of Defense."Sep 08 07:22
ZiggyFishlolSep 08 07:23
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:23
seller_liarschestowitz: companies are the rest of roman empire (along with some governments)Sep 08 07:23
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:23
quantacomputer programming does not to take some question then give a true answer by applying a set of axioms. It's more like building a house than mathematical reasoning.Sep 08 07:24
seller_liarquanta: ideas =! actionSep 08 07:25
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:25
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:25
quanta_you ask, well, what do I want the house/program to do?Sep 08 07:25
seller_liarquanta_: ideas can not be patentedSep 08 07:25
*kentma (n=user@host86-154-250-27.range86-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:25
ZiggyFishseller_liar: konqueror doesn't work, how do i get debugging information?Sep 08 07:25
quanta_then how can anything be patented?Sep 08 07:25
schestowitzquanta_: bad analogySep 08 07:25
schestowitzBuilding a house is a physical processSep 08 07:25
schestowitzThere's no duplicationSep 08 07:25
quanta_sorry, I really ought to say designing a houseSep 08 07:26
quanta_like architectureSep 08 07:26
schestowitzIf I built one house, can I share the work to produce a nation of houses?Sep 08 07:26
quanta_not buildingSep 08 07:26
seller_liarZiggyFish: do you have gdvSep 08 07:26
seller_liarZiggyFish: *gdb?Sep 08 07:26
quanta_my slip-upSep 08 07:26
quanta_if you design a house, you need not build itSep 08 07:26
schestowitzCan architecture be patented?Sep 08 07:26
ZiggyFishI can install it, yesSep 08 07:26
quanta_and you can indeed share the designSep 08 07:26
schestowitzAre people banned from implementing an arc?Sep 08 07:26
ZiggyFish(already installed)Sep 08 07:26
schestowitzCan a person be sued for making a round pool?Sep 08 07:27
quanta_I dunno if it can. I don't really care if it can. My point is that programming isn't math, not that programming ought to be patentableSep 08 07:27
schestowitzquanta_: don't run away.Sep 08 07:27
seller_liaryou use ideas to make physical actionsSep 08 07:27
schestowitzYou brought up this example.Sep 08 07:27
seller_liarideas it's not physical actionsSep 08 07:27
schestowitzArchitecture is geometry.Sep 08 07:27
quanta_What? I brought this up because it involves using various ideas and design. Not because it is or isn't patentable.Sep 08 07:28
schestowitzMickey mouse monopoly? Know anything about it?Sep 08 07:28
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:28
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:28
ZiggyFishseller_liar: any ideasSep 08 07:28
schestowitzOr the inability to just draw a stripe because Nike might claim ownership?Sep 08 07:28
seller_liarZiggyFish: have you installed gdb?Sep 08 07:28
ZiggyFishyesSep 08 07:29
quantawhat does this have to do with the question of how programming is math?Sep 08 07:29
seller_liarZiggyFish: disable javascript in konquerorSep 08 07:29
quantaI've already said. Math shouldn't be patentable, because it's like patenting truth.Sep 08 07:29
ZiggyFishseller_liar: doneSep 08 07:30
schestowitzquanta: on whose behalf do you approach this? Do you have a software patent?Sep 08 07:30
quantanope,Sep 08 07:30
seller_liarZiggyFish: try nowSep 08 07:30
quantaI came because I do mathematics workSep 08 07:30
quantaand I thought it really fucking weird for programming to be called mathSep 08 07:30
quantapet peeveSep 08 07:30
schestowitzIt's higher-level maths.Sep 08 07:30
schestowitzBroken down, the two can be compared.Sep 08 07:30
schestowitzLanguage is semantics, devices are physics.Sep 08 07:31
ZiggyFishseller_liar: I seeSep 08 07:31
seller_liarZiggyFish: but without javascript is ugly no?Sep 08 07:31
ZiggyFishyepSep 08 07:32
seller_liarZiggyFish: try to enable and update the pageSep 08 07:32
quantaschestowitz: continue pleaseSep 08 07:32
ZiggyFishare I seeSep 08 07:32
seller_liarZiggyFish: what?Sep 08 07:33
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:33
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:33
*quanta_ (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:34
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:34
quanta_goddamn connectionSep 08 07:34
ZiggyFishseller_liar: what am i meant to seeSep 08 07:35
schestowitzWe're twirling around the same points.Sep 08 07:35
quanta_?_?Sep 08 07:35
seller_liarZiggyFish:Have been the problem resolved?Sep 08 07:35
ZiggyFishyeahSep 08 07:36
ZiggyFishnoSep 08 07:36
seller_liarZiggyFish: no?Sep 08 07:36
ZiggyFishyeah, sorrySep 08 07:36
seller_liarZiggyFish: good!Sep 08 07:36
seller_liarZiggyFish: but try now with firefox and operaSep 08 07:36
seller_liarschestowitz: hey roy   There are a the ideal license for volatile documents ?Sep 08 07:38
ZiggyFishare yes, I see, doesn't look good without javascriptSep 08 07:38
*kentma1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 08 07:39
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:40
*quanta_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:40
seller_liarZiggyFish: try to use wine + IEs for linuxSep 08 07:40
ZiggyFishI have a vm runningSep 08 07:41
seller_liarZiggyFish: in firefox 3 with linux works well.....Sep 08 07:41
schestowitzBl00dy hell: http://gamer.blorge.com/2008/09/06/in-depth...Sep 08 07:41
ZiggyFishseller_liar: yeah (what I used to test it), opera on linux works tooSep 08 07:42
quantagod damn fucking connection #%#%#@$#$!Sep 08 07:43
quantaexcuse meSep 08 07:43
schestowitzquanta: documents?Sep 08 07:45
*quanta has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:45
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:45
seller_liarZiggyFish: I'm not using windows sorrySep 08 07:45
ZiggyFishopera is available for linux tooSep 08 07:45
*seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 07:48
*lucian (n=lucian@189-18-31-186.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:50
*quanta (n=quanta@h-67-101-98-189.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) has left #boycottnovellSep 08 07:51
*ZiggyFish1 (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 07:52
*ZiggyFish has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 07:52
ZiggyFish1sorry, (internet stopped working)Sep 08 07:52
ZiggyFish1my site works in chromeSep 08 07:59
lucianZiggyFish1: humSep 08 08:00
schestowitz:- S http://phorolinux.com/ubuntu-810-intrepi... Why doesn't Canonical pick one of the many wonderful themes from gnome-look? Sure, ti's taste-dependent, but the default looks bland to me. Themes (looks) mean the /mos/ the people due to first impressions.Sep 08 08:07
*lucian has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 08 08:09
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 08 08:13
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 08:55
*ZiggyFish1 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Sep 08 08:55
*seller_liar (n=seller@201-27-173-60.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 09:16
*seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 09:22
*moparx has quit ("leaving")Sep 08 09:43
*libervisco (n=daniel@tuxhacker/libervisco) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 10:06
ZiggyFishLOL, I believe the definition of IE is "IE is a tool released by Microsoft to aid one in navigation to Mozilla.org to download the Firefox web browser.Sep 08 10:11
MinceRi tend to call it "backdoor with GUI"Sep 08 10:12
ZiggyFishlolSep 08 10:13
*ZiggyFish has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 08 10:15
schestowitzInstaller (drive-by)Sep 08 10:15
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 10:18
*trmanco (n=trmanco@bl5-46-32.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 10:34
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Sep 08 10:47
*trmanco (n=trmanco@bl5-46-32.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 11:07
*ZiggyFish has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 11:20
*benJIman wonders if schestowitz will blog about http://www.microsoft.com/uk/getthefacts/lse.mspx in the light of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main...Sep 08 14:01
schestowitzHa. _Again_?Sep 08 14:02
benJIman"●Sep 08 14:03
benJIman  One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days"Sep 08 14:03
schestowitzYou'd think they learned from the earlier crashes.Sep 08 14:03
schestowitzMarkets crash, planes crash (FAA)... well, but just the system.Sep 08 14:04
*mib_gjp91s (i=545c9878@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-35b1b8ecc502648a) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 14:53
*mib_gjp91s has quit (Client Quit)Sep 08 14:54
trmancoLondon's stocks exchange system crashed?Sep 08 15:38
schestowitzYes, gimme 5 minutes and a post will be up. :-))Sep 08 15:39
trmanco:)Sep 08 15:41
trmancoMicrosoft ftwSep 08 15:41
schestowitzIt's a .NET unsuccess story. Miguel will be happy.Sep 08 15:41
*trmanco just *Giggled*Sep 08 15:41
trmancolets see what the Microsofties have to say about this crashSep 08 15:47
schestowitzI did it in a rush, so it's kind of yucky (the English), but here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0...Sep 08 15:48
trmancothanksSep 08 15:49
trmancoabout this quote "One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days", IMHO there is nothing 100% reliableSep 08 15:50
schestowitz"But we had a good uptime".   Compare that to other markets that almost never go down (never heard of it in Wall Street for example)Sep 08 15:52
trmancowhat does wall street run?Sep 08 15:52
schestowitzI syndicate YouTube on "Novell". This one came up just a moment ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F557Pv6iLwSep 08 15:53
schestowitztrmanco: UNIX and Linux as far as I know (moving towards the latter). See the references at the bottom of my new post.Sep 08 15:54
trmancoI missed the references 12 and 13Sep 08 15:55
schestowitzBBC gets slammed: http://www.itpro.co.uk/blogs/andrewm/2008...Sep 08 16:47
schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/...Sep 08 17:01
*lucian (n=lucian@201-95-49-9.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 17:03
*lucian is now known as sellerSep 08 17:03
*seller has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 17:17
schestowitzSomeone in GL has just found this gold mine: http://sco.tuxrocks.com/Docs/DRDOS/Sep 08 17:26
trmancohp://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Sep-07.htmlSep 08 17:45
*PetoKraus (n=Peter@78-86-98-119.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 17:47
schestowitzYes, I wrote about it. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/...Sep 08 17:48
schestowitzIt turns out that ITNews might have a link to IDG after all.Sep 08 17:59
schestowitzhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/liztay   http://www.google.com/search?sou... http://www.itnews.com.au/News/8...Sep 08 17:59
trmancoI've just started reading my feeds, so I haven't had a chance to read BN's feed yet :PSep 08 18:00
MinceRhttp://troopers.fi/~kemmler/epic/macminiupgrade.jpgSep 08 18:07
*mib_e1zoms has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 18:09
PetoKrauslol, MinceRSep 08 18:09
schestowitzToday: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10034496-16.html "I'm an Apple fan. I have been spending a lot of money on Apple products for years. But I'm also in the software business, and can't imagine treating my own partners as poorly as Apple apparently treats its developer partners."Sep 08 18:10
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a62a96c6e8ee5e29) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 18:10
*mib_e1zoms has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 18:22
*cj (n=cjac@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cj) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 18:22
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-be9e85aa17efea8f) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 18:22
cjschestowitz: thanksSep 08 18:23
*moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 18:31
*mib_e1zoms has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 18:34
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-40f9a8a45fd77781) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 18:34
*mib_e1zoms has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 18:54
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3c06378ab5ab85e6) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 18:54
*mib_e1zoms has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 19:07
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-01d811984d7bc04b) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 19:09
*mib_e1zoms has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 19:38
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ca09b8007d2dd6ca) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 19:38
*mib_e1zoms has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 20:01
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c80c25c1e6b40591) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 20:02
*mib_e1zoms has quit (Client Quit)Sep 08 20:05
*mib_e1zoms (i=41c7bd06@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4e46e2bd5dadd918) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 20:05
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@93.102.65.184.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 20:26
Tallkenschestowitz: you there?Sep 08 20:48
schestowitzYes, what's up?Sep 08 20:48
Tallkengotta go, nothing specialSep 08 20:53
Tallkentalk to you later :)Sep 08 20:53
*Tallken has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 20:54
trmancololSep 08 20:56
*lucian (n=lucian@201-43-151-109.dsl.telesp.net.br) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 20:58
*lucian is now known as seller_liarSep 08 20:58
*tessier_ (n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:00
tessier_TradElect, the Microsoft .Net based trading platform for the London Stock Exchange was offline for about seven hours, meaning that their 5-nines SLAs are shot for approximately the next 100 years. The TradElect system was launched back in June of 2007 and was designed for increased speed and system capacitySep 08 21:00
tessier_You guys hear about that?Sep 08 21:00
tessier_http://news.google.com/news?q=tradelect...Sep 08 21:00
schestowitzI' being challenged about it.Sep 08 21:00
MinceRyeah, schestowitz has written an article on itSep 08 21:00
tessier_Should be some good fun to poke thereSep 08 21:01
schestowitzCan it be confirmed which layer of the stack is to blame?Sep 08 21:01
MinceRthat's what a microsoft fanboy would say ;)Sep 08 21:01
tessier_The LSE said the system had been hit by a "connectivity issue" and insisted that the problem did not lie with its flagship TradElect trading platform.Sep 08 21:02
schestowitzAre any other systems in London affected by network issues?Sep 08 21:02
schestowitzBTW I have some maintenance work done here tomorrow, so I'll be offline for half a day.Sep 08 21:02
*ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 21:20
ZiggyFishhey schestowitz are you therSep 08 21:22
ZiggyFishhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/cont...Sep 08 21:24
ZiggyFishPointless PatentsSep 08 21:24
ZiggyFishThe software giant applied for the patent in 2005, and was granted it on August 19, 2008. US patent number 7,415,666 describes "a method and system in a document viewer for scrolling a substantially exact increment in a document, such as one page, regardless of whether the zoom is such that some, all or one page is currently being viewed".Sep 08 21:24
ZiggyFish(Micrsoft)Sep 08 21:24
*macabe has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 08 21:25
ZiggyFishThis is worse than Amazon's one-click-checkout. Who's gonna be the first to patent how to pinch a turd?Sep 08 21:27
tessier_"Method for dilating  annular cutting device for the purpose of separating waste from the producer"Sep 08 21:28
MinceRlolSep 08 21:29
ZiggyFishlolSep 08 21:29
ZiggyFishreading some commnetsSep 08 21:29
ZiggyFishI'm going to patent sexual intercourse now.   That's right. Putting penis into vagina and thrusting in and out until ejaculation was my idea. So now I must be paid royalties whenever somebody engages in copulation. I will soon have more money than even Gates...yes. So go on guys and mount your girlfriends while I laugh all the way to the bank.Sep 08 21:30
MinceRmount /dev/gf0?Sep 08 21:31
ZiggyFishhehehehSep 08 21:32
ZiggyFishmore like mount /dev/gf5 ;)Sep 08 21:33
MinceR:)Sep 08 21:34
ZiggyFishwhat about this oneSep 08 21:39
ZiggyFishIBM Tries to Patent Making Money from Patents <http://blogs.wsj.com/bizte...>Sep 08 21:39
ZiggyFishYes, IBM appears to be trying to get a patent for making money from patents. What’s funny about this patent is that it’s triggered a debate: Is this just another absurd attempt to profit from something everybody does (like this now-withdrawn application for a patent on outsourcing)? Or is this application part of a benevolent plan to prevent others from profiting from absurd patents?Sep 08 21:40
ZiggyFishwhich is trueSep 08 21:40
*ZiggyFish has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 22:07
*FunkyPenguin has quit ("Leaving.")Sep 08 22:20
*mib_e1zoms has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 08 22:21
*dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellSep 08 23:35
dsmith_http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS29...Sep 08 23:35
dsmith_Lenovo ditches LinuxSep 08 23:35
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Sep 08 23:52
cjeep.  no more linux on lenovo?  That's too bad.  I was pretty impressed with my experience.Sep 08 23:55

Recent Techrights' Posts

Links 19/04/2024: Running a V Rising Dedicated Server on GNU/Linux and More Post-"AI" Hype Eulogies
Links for the day
[Video] Novell and Microsoft 45 Years Later
what happened in 2006 when Novell's Ron Hovsepian (who had come from IBM) sealed the company's sad fate by taking the advice of Microsoft moles
EPO “Technical” Meetings Are Not Technical Anymore, It's Just Corrupt Officials Destroying the Patent Office, Piecewise (While Breaking the Law to Increase Profits)
Another pillar of the EPO is being knocked down
Sven Luther, Lucy Wayland & Debian's toxic culture
Reprinted with permission from disguised.work
[Video] Microsoft Got Its Systems Cracked (Breached) Again, This Time by Russia, and It Uses Its Moles in the Press and So-called 'Linux' Foundation to Change the Subject
If they control the narrative (or buy the narrative), they can do anything
 
The Latest Wave of Microsoft Crime, Bribes, and Fraud
Microsoft is still an evil, highly corrupt company
Gemini Links 19/04/2024: Kolibri OS and OpenBSD
Links for the day
[Meme] EPO “Technical” Meetings
an institution full of despots who commit or enable illegalities
Red Hat Communicates the World Via Microsoft Proprietary Spyware
Red Hat believes in choice: Microsoft... or Microsoft.
Chris Rutter, ARM Ltd IPO, Winchester College & Debian
Reprinted with permission from disguised.work
Links 19/04/2024: Israel Fires Back at Iran and Many Layoffs in the US
Links for the day
Russell Coker & Debian: September 11 Islamist sympathy
Reprinted with permission from disguised.work
Sven Luther, Thomas Bushnell & Debian's September 11 discussion
Reprinted with permission from disguised.work
G.A.I./Hey Hi (AI) Bubble Bursting With More Mass Layoffs
it's happening already
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Thursday, April 18, 2024
IRC logs for Thursday, April 18, 2024
Coroner's Report: Lucy Wayland & Debian Abuse Culture
Reprinted with permission from disguised.work
Links 18/04/2024: Misuse of COVID Stimulus Money, Governments Buying Your Data
Links for the day
Gemini Links 18/04/2024: GemText Pain and Web 1.0
Links for the day
Gemini Links 18/04/2024: Google Layoffs Again, ByteDance Scandals Return
Links for the day
Gemini Links 18/04/2024: Trying OpenBSD and War on Links Continues
Links for the day
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, April 17, 2024
IRC logs for Wednesday, April 17, 2024
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day