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| quanta_ | so I heard that some people here consider software to be math | Sep 08 05:44 |
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| *quanta_ is now known as quanta | Sep 08 05:44 |
| quanta | I'm curious as to why | Sep 08 05:44 |
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| quanta | anybody want to answer? | Sep 08 05:46 |
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| quanta | anybody awake? | Sep 08 05:46 |
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| schestowitz | Yes. | Sep 08 05:46 |
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| schestowitz | There are existing discussions of this point. | Sep 08 05:46 |
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| quanta | I am curious of how this was even thought of because although I haven't done a whole lot of coding, it seems to be a wholly different pursuit than mathematical research | Sep 08 05:47 |
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| quanta | Admittedly, I've only begun mathematical research this summer, but that's more than most people do in a lifetime | Sep 08 05:49 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.amazon.com/Math-You-Cant-Use-Co... | Sep 08 05:49 |
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| quanta_ | sorry, bad connection | Sep 08 05:50 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: for me software should not patented, because the software only is done one time | Sep 08 05:52 |
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| quanta_ | that's not what I'm asking | Sep 08 05:52 |
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| quanta_ | I'm asking how it's like math | Sep 08 05:52 |
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| quanta_ | or not like | Sep 08 05:52 |
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| quanta_ | IS math | Sep 08 05:52 |
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| quanta_ | because I'm not seeing it | Sep 08 05:53 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: people who patents software have a real propose to make a lot of money in short time | Sep 08 05:53 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: algoritms | Sep 08 05:53 |
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| quanta_ | algorithms alone do not make math though | Sep 08 05:54 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_:but algorithms uses math | Sep 08 05:54 |
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| quanta_ | yes, but architects also use math | Sep 08 05:55 |
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| quanta_ | that does not make building design itself math | Sep 08 05:55 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: I don know now | Sep 08 05:56 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: why people create some patented software ? | Sep 08 05:56 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: since begin ,the software developers already thinks in do a lot of money | Sep 08 05:57 |
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| quanta_ | Software always struck me as a more of an engineering thing | Sep 08 05:57 |
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| quanta_ | so a reasonable patent system would make sense to me. I dunno if the current system is reasonable, but that's not really my question. | Sep 08 05:58 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: proprietary and patented software detroys the consumer control over the product, and gives the control for companies | Sep 08 05:58 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: for me it's not | Sep 08 05:58 |
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| quanta_ | not engineering? | Sep 08 05:58 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: instead of user pay the developer for make a software (in free software for example) , the developer controls the price in proprietary software | Sep 08 05:59 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: m$ for example sell windows in any price | Sep 08 05:59 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: why the user cannot tell the value the software? | Sep 08 05:59 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: the system is a complete crap | Sep 08 05:59 |
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| quanta_ | Value or Price? | Sep 08 06:00 |
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| quanta_ | Because he can decide whether or not he wants to pay for it | Sep 08 06:00 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: price | Sep 08 06:00 |
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| quanta_ | in other words, its value to him | Sep 08 06:00 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: and value too | Sep 08 06:00 |
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| quanta_ | well, it only seems fair that the price must be set so that the company doesn't lose money | Sep 08 06:00 |
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| quanta_ | but that's not my point... | Sep 08 06:00 |
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| quanta_ | how is software math? | Sep 08 06:01 |
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| seller_liar | hey, someone have a link about eff and the free software advocacy? | Sep 08 06:01 |
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| quanta | with math, I come up with some axioms, perhaps some operations, and then I ask a question about them | Sep 08 06:01 |
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| quanta | there are three possiblities | Sep 08 06:01 |
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| quanta | when you make a hypothesis | Sep 08 06:02 |
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| quanta | A) your right | Sep 08 06:02 |
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| quanta | B) you're wrong | Sep 08 06:02 |
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| quanta | and | Sep 08 06:02 |
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| quanta | C) the question cannot be answered with your current set of axioms | Sep 08 06:02 |
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| quanta | how you get there is important, but not truly the crucial thing in and of itself | Sep 08 06:02 |
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| quanta | and the answer is determined before you even begin progressing towards it | Sep 08 06:03 |
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| ZiggyFish | quanta: who are you arguing with? (I've just joined the chat) | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| quanta | I'm not really arguing with anyone in particular | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| schestowitz | Not sure it's an argument per se | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: I do not know now | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| quanta | I just am confused by how software could be considered math | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| quanta | they aren't really the same thing | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| schestowitz | It's the tired discussion about algorithms as maths. | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| ZiggyFish | quanta: are you a programmer | Sep 08 06:04 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol | Sep 08 06:05 |
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| quanta | there is some math that is strongly tied to computer science, but that's not as far as I know the issue | Sep 08 06:05 |
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| ZiggyFish | quanta: are you a programmer? | Sep 08 06:05 |
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| quanta | not really, I've done a little bit of coding, but nothing above intro level stuff you'd see | Sep 08 06:05 |
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| ZiggyFish | (need to know, so I can talk to you in the write way) | Sep 08 06:06 |
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| quanta | Conversely, I could ask, are you a mathematician? | Sep 08 06:06 |
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| ZiggyFish | no, but do know intermedia maths | Sep 08 06:06 |
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| quanta | hmmm.. describe intermediate math please | Sep 08 06:06 |
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| quanta | like, set theory? graph theory? vector calculus? some of all? | Sep 08 06:08 |
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| quanta | ? | Sep 08 06:11 |
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| ZiggyFish | quanta: programs are made up of commands that move bytes, from one location to another. and inorder to do that. each byte must have an address (like 0x40000000). So say you wanted to copy a string from one location to another (like say you wanted to upper case something), you would first test the value to see if it was between 97 and <what ever the ascii value for 'z' (which to do that is a subtraction of both to see if a cer | Sep 08 06:11 |
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| quanta_ | sorry I missed that | Sep 08 06:12 |
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| quanta_ | bad connection | Sep 08 06:12 |
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| quanta_ | I caught the first part | Sep 08 06:12 |
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| ZiggyFish | quanta: programs are made up of commands that move bytes, from one location to another. and inorder to do that. each byte must have an address (like 0x40000000). So say you wanted to copy a string from one location to another (like say you wanted to upper case something), you would first test the value to see if it was between 97 and <what ever the ascii value for 'z' (which to do that is a subtraction of both to see if a cer | Sep 08 06:12 |
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| quanta_ | was there anything after? | Sep 08 06:12 |
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| ZiggyFish | nope | Sep 08 06:12 |
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| quanta_ | ok, following so far | Sep 08 06:12 |
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| ZiggyFish | my point is all programs are mathematical (even simple ones). | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| quanta_ | ? | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| quanta_ | that's not math | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| ZiggyFish | define math | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| quanta_ | It's not exactly an easy thing to define | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| schestowitz | It's a recipe in logic. | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| schestowitz | There's no device. | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| quanta_ | but you start with a set of axioms | Sep 08 06:13 |
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| quanta_ | then you ask a question about the properties of some object | Sep 08 06:14 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: equivalence ,like string manipulation , is proved by axioms | Sep 08 06:14 |
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| quanta_ | and attempt to prove something about said properties | Sep 08 06:14 |
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| quanta_ | but that wouldn't be enough on its own | Sep 08 06:14 |
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| quanta_ | as my defintion is somewhat loose | Sep 08 06:14 |
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| ZiggyFish | what seller_liar said | Sep 08 06:14 |
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| quanta | for example, one could say I was talking about physics instead, which isn't strictly math | Sep 08 06:15 |
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| quanta | sorry for the connection | Sep 08 06:15 |
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| quanta | I can't do anything about it | Sep 08 06:15 |
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| quanta | I'm on vacation, and I don't even know where the access point is | Sep 08 06:16 |
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| ZiggyFish | also there is the way in which the movement is done (which uses AND, OR and NOT). | Sep 08 06:16 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol | Sep 08 06:16 |
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| quanta | yes, logic gates | Sep 08 06:17 |
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| ZiggyFish | yes, which is math | Sep 08 06:17 |
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| seller_liar | boolean logic, is a lot axioms | Sep 08 06:17 |
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| quanta_ | goddamn connection | Sep 08 06:17 |
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| ZiggyFish | maybe it's trying to tell you something | Sep 08 06:18 |
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| quanta | indeed, boolean logic is mathematical, but just because a program is based upon it, does not necessarily mean the program is math | Sep 08 06:18 |
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| quanta | physics uses lots of math, and even sometimes lends itself to mathematical like proofs, yet it is not math | Sep 08 06:18 |
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| quanta | one must be careful to distinguish the application from the thing itself | Sep 08 06:19 |
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| *ZiggyFish gives up | Sep 08 06:19 |
| seller_liar | quanta: physics is based in ideas, like mathematics is | Sep 08 06:19 |
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| quanta | there are indeed realms of computer science that are math... like asking what network scheme is the most efficient by some metric | Sep 08 06:19 |
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| quanta | yes, but physics is different, because things are determined empirically | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| schestowitz | That's not the only point though. Algorithms are a form of expression that's unique. | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| quanta | nothing can be determined empirically in math | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| ZiggyFish | anyway on a serious note, does anyone have access to a windows machine? | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| schestowitz | Trivial patents can be a fence you can't hop | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| schestowitz | Like paging keys. | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| ZiggyFish | need to test something in IE | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| schestowitz | Web site? | Sep 08 06:20 |
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| quanta | yes, some patents can indeed be not necessarily ideal, but that doesn't really apply to my question | Sep 08 06:21 |
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| ZiggyFish | yeah | Sep 08 06:21 |
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| schestowitz | browsershots.org | Sep 08 06:21 |
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| ZiggyFish | need to know if this works in IE (the javascript) | Sep 08 06:21 |
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| ZiggyFish | http://cwarn.org/ | Sep 08 06:21 |
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| quanta | algorithms are unique? you mean a specific algorithm correct? | Sep 08 06:21 |
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| quanta | however, there can be multiple algorithms for one type of problem | Sep 08 06:22 |
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| schestowitz | Programmers have copyrights. | Sep 08 06:22 |
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| quanta | on the other hand, I would define a purely mathematical question as having only one answer based upon your set of axioms. | Sep 08 06:23 |
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| quanta | for example, a particular algorithm has only one computational complexity as far as I know | Sep 08 06:23 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: someone knows the end since begining | Sep 08 06:24 |
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| schestowitz | What do you mean? | Sep 08 06:24 |
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| quanta_ | (it might be rather complicated, but there's still only one complete answer) | Sep 08 06:25 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: see B.F Skinner, it invalidates all patents | Sep 08 06:25 |
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| schestowitz | Got URL? | Sep 08 06:25 |
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| quanta_ | on the other hand, there can be multiple ways to accomplish some task in programming | Sep 08 06:25 |
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| quanta_ | with trees for example | Sep 08 06:25 |
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| quanta_ | you can do breadth first or depth first searches | Sep 08 06:25 |
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| schestowitz | The point worth making is that swapats promote no development really. | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| schestowitz | Programmer don't like patents. | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: hehe, sorry roy i do not have one, but search for skinner | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| quanta_ | ok, so programmer's don't like patents? | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| schestowitz | I can recall something like this. | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: even the "hardware patents" | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| quanta_ | what about the ones that make money off of it? | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: all patents does not promove nothing | Sep 08 06:26 |
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| schestowitz | quanta_: you mean lawyers? | Sep 08 06:27 |
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| quanta_ | a programmer can find patents useful as well | Sep 08 06:27 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: for what? | Sep 08 06:27 |
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| quanta_ | obviously lawyers benefit as well thanks to the complexity of patent law | Sep 08 06:27 |
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| quanta_ | For example, my father is a veterinarian | Sep 08 06:27 |
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| quanta_ | and he was not satisfied with current systems for medical records | Sep 08 06:27 |
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| quanta_ | and how to keep them, search the, make them electronically etc. | Sep 08 06:28 |
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| quanta_ | so he developed and wrote a program (mostly on his own, he hired a few guys to help though) | Sep 08 06:28 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: but see, he does not live lonely , he 's need to use another ideas and need to use another people 'help | Sep 08 06:28 |
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| quanta | and went through years of work on everything without seeing a drop of profit | Sep 08 06:29 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: so , don work then | Sep 08 06:29 |
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| quanta | he patented his work, so that others couldn't steal all of his work | Sep 08 06:29 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz:sorry , I respect, but your father does not even to begin the projecty | Sep 08 06:29 |
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| quanta | this is beneficial to him and others | Sep 08 06:29 |
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| seller_liar | soory roy ,is for quanta | Sep 08 06:29 |
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| quanta | because it provides him with motivation to keep his software easily useable and to distribute it. As well as make it of course | Sep 08 06:31 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: what type of motivation, he does not work if wants | Sep 08 06:31 |
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| quanta | otherwise, some other individual or company could simply copy all his work, sell it, and distribute it | Sep 08 06:31 |
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| quanta | can you phrase that question better? | Sep 08 06:32 |
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| quanta | I don't understand what you mean | Sep 08 06:32 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: you should know which all this value of this world is the WORK | Sep 08 06:32 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: sorry | Sep 08 06:32 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: if your father does work only once, and then he should receive money for one day | Sep 08 06:32 |
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| quanta | huh? yeah, the work is valuable. That's why he should be allowed to protect it | Sep 08 06:33 |
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| quanta | work only once? | Sep 08 06:33 |
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| quanta | what do you mean once? | Sep 08 06:33 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: one time | Sep 08 06:33 |
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| quanta | seems to me like he should make money whenever he sells his software, if he decides to sell it | Sep 08 06:33 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: example, | Sep 08 06:34 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: a developer works in one day in some software , he should receive money for one day of work | Sep 08 06:34 |
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| quanta | like salary you mean? because he's being paid by a company? | Sep 08 06:35 |
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| quanta | what if he's not paid by a company though? | Sep 08 06:35 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: do not work | Sep 08 06:35 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: we are free | Sep 08 06:36 |
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| quanta | Not everyone can afford to work for free though. | Sep 08 06:36 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: it's not work for free | Sep 08 06:36 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: work only when is paid for this | Sep 08 06:36 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: if you it's not paid, do not work | Sep 08 06:37 |
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| quanta | What if you get paid by selling your software? | Sep 08 06:37 |
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| quanta | What's wrong with that? | Sep 08 06:37 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: software is developed one time | Sep 08 06:37 |
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| quanta | so? | Sep 08 06:37 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: why receive more than one time of work? | Sep 08 06:37 |
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| quanta | books are only written one time. | Sep 08 06:37 |
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| quanta | Should all the profit then go to the person who prints them | Sep 08 06:38 |
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| quanta | and authors receive no royalties? | Sep 08 06:38 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: no , the person which prints should pay the author one time ,of course, the author have total freedom to want a lot of money | Sep 08 06:39 |
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| schestowitz | Books have copyrights; so does code. | Sep 08 06:39 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: but it's one time ONLY | Sep 08 06:39 |
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| schestowitz | You can't prevent people from chatting about something they read in a book. | Sep 08 06:39 |
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| quanta | Yeah, but you're also not allowed to print the book just because you bought it | Sep 08 06:39 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: example | Sep 08 06:40 |
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| quanta | copyright protections can work too; it's a matter of flexibility, but this distracts from my original question | Sep 08 06:40 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: the author writes the book one time only | Sep 08 06:41 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: mcgraw hill and other companies live a "lies empire" | Sep 08 06:42 |
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| schestowitz | They probably profit when the author dies too. | Sep 08 06:42 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: and every sand castle should be ruined | Sep 08 06:42 |
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| quanta | well, yeah, royalties probably end then if they didn't before | Sep 08 06:42 |
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| quanta | but back to original question | Sep 08 06:43 |
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| quanta | how is programming math? | Sep 08 06:43 |
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| schestowitz | That;s no incentive to create. The dead person doesn't allow existing people to be creative. | Sep 08 06:43 |
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| quanta | it does not definitively answer a question like math does | Sep 08 06:43 |
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| schestowitz | What patent? | Sep 08 06:44 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: every programming language have theories of computation ,which is based in math | Sep 08 06:44 |
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| schestowitz | Show me an example. | Sep 08 06:44 |
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| schestowitz | quanta: you're obviously here to defend a river or maths monopoly. | Sep 08 06:44 |
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| quanta | maths monopoly? | Sep 08 06:44 |
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| quanta | Really, I'm more bothered by the fact that anyone could consider programming math | Sep 08 06:45 |
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| quanta | I don't care much whether you copyright or patent stuff | Sep 08 06:45 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: lisp language is 100% theory | Sep 08 06:45 |
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| quanta | current patent system is known to be broken of course | Sep 08 06:45 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: c is too | Sep 08 06:45 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: patents SHOULD NOT exist | Sep 08 06:45 |
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| quanta | really, so there is precisely one way to say... parse text? | Sep 08 06:46 |
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| schestowitz | quanta: depends where. | Sep 08 06:46 |
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| schestowitz | But the idea of patents in general is challenged by some too. | Sep 08 06:46 |
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| schestowitz | Ever Nobel prize winners. | Sep 08 06:46 |
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| quanta | I don't care about the patents. That's not my original question. You guys brought that up. | Sep 08 06:46 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: text, language computation, chionsk theories | Sep 08 06:46 |
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| schestowitz | You can to challenge it. | Sep 08 06:46 |
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| schestowitz | *same | Sep 08 06:47 |
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| schestowitz | *came | Sep 08 06:47 |
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| quanta | true, if it's math patents might not make sense, but that's only if it really is math | Sep 08 06:47 |
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| quanta | which I've never heard any mathematician call it that | Sep 08 06:47 |
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| quanta | ever | Sep 08 06:47 |
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| quanta | a specific piece of software is not math | Sep 08 06:47 |
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| quanta | software USES math | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: every fact is a theorem | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| quanta | but so does physics | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: 1+1 | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: 10x10 | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| quanta | so? | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: but it's uselles to call simple technices of theorems | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: should not be patented | Sep 08 06:48 |
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| quanta | ... that doesn't make it math. | Sep 08 06:49 |
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| quanta | It'd be silly to patent Newton's laws of motion | Sep 08 06:49 |
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| quanta | but they still aren't math | Sep 08 06:49 |
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| schestowitz | http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/educator... (watch refs) | Sep 08 06:49 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: phisycs uses math to prove ideas, without math, there's no physics | Sep 08 06:50 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: physics is based in math theories | Sep 08 06:50 |
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| quanta | ummmm... not really | Sep 08 06:51 |
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| quanta_ | well, more complex answer | Sep 08 06:51 |
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| quanta_ | is yes and no | Sep 08 06:51 |
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| quanta_ | physics is based upon empirical observation | Sep 08 06:51 |
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| quanta_ | math is the language used to describe it | Sep 08 06:52 |
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| quanta_ | to perform calculations | Sep 08 06:52 |
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| quanta_ | but physics is not math | Sep 08 06:52 |
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| quanta_ | similarly, neither is programming math | Sep 08 06:52 |
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| schestowitz | At a lower level, it is. | Sep 08 06:53 |
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| schestowitz | That's just a philosophical recursion now. You're running around the same point. | Sep 08 06:53 |
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| schestowitz | Applies maths is still maths. | Sep 08 06:53 |
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| quanta | it relies upon some mathematical facts | Sep 08 06:53 |
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| schestowitz | Owning it is restricting its application | Sep 08 06:53 |
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| quanta | applying math does not make something math | Sep 08 06:53 |
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| quanta | if that was so, way too much shit would be math | Sep 08 06:54 |
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| schestowitz | It's locking down and preventing its use. | Sep 08 06:54 |
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| quanta | I fully agree that you should be allowed to use mathematical facts and techniques all you want. | Sep 08 06:54 |
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| schestowitz | If I think of 2+2, then multiplying that by 4 and dividing it by two, that's maths. | Sep 08 06:54 |
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| quanta | But that doesn't make what you do math | Sep 08 06:54 |
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| schestowitz | If I decide that only I can do this process of changing variable quantities, then I prevent other from doing this. | Sep 08 06:55 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: physics is experimental ,envolves works, physics ideas are math ideas | Sep 08 06:55 |
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| quanta | physics ideas are a blend of mathematics and experiment | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| schestowitz | quanta: example, please? | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: physics ideas =! real physics | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| schestowitz | Show me your dad's patent so that we can criticise it. | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| quanta | for example, an object at rest will tend to stay at rest, and an object in motion will tend to stay in motion | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| seller_liar | sorry roy is for quant the text above | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| quanta | no math is required | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: logic,ideas | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| quanta | logic is not necessarily math. :| | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: equality,comparasions = math | Sep 08 06:56 |
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| quanta | wrong | Sep 08 06:57 |
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| quanta | blatantly so | Sep 08 06:57 |
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| schestowitz | Is poetry patentable? | Sep 08 06:57 |
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| quanta | for example, we might call a border collie and a beagle both dogs, but that is not a mathematical distiinction. | Sep 08 06:57 |
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| quanta | *distinction. | Sep 08 06:57 |
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| quanta | I'm not terribly interested in whether or not it's patentable. The point is that programming isn't math. | Sep 08 06:58 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: logic is ideas, it's not property | Sep 08 06:59 |
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| quanta_ | It involves math, but it isn't math itself | Sep 08 06:59 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: yes it is because without math the system does not exist | Sep 08 07:00 |
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| quanta_ | so? | Sep 08 07:00 |
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| quanta_ | just because you can't do it without something doesn't mean it is that thing | Sep 08 07:00 |
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| quanta_ | I can't run my car without gasoline, but my car clearly is NOT gasoline | Sep 08 07:00 |
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| quanta_ | it just uses it | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| schestowitz | quanta_: programming is translated to binary codes. | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| schestowitz | 000101001011010101010101010101101 ADD 1010101010111010101010101010 .... | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| quanta_ | I know this | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| schestowitz | Is that math? | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| quanta_ | numbers alone do not make math | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| quanta_ | typing a string of numbers is not math | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| schestowitz | *sigh* | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| quanta_ | now, you can ask mathematical questions about it perhaps | Sep 08 07:01 |
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| quanta_ | you can define certain strings of numbers to be sets | Sep 08 07:02 |
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| quanta_ | and define operations on these objects | Sep 08 07:02 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: what about the same object gasoline without gasoline it's not gasoline | Sep 08 07:02 |
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| quanta_ | indeed, gasoline without gasoline is not gasoline | Sep 08 07:02 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: it's hardware ,is a bit diferent | Sep 08 07:02 |
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| quanta_ | and programming without math might not be so easy or make much sense or even exist | Sep 08 07:03 |
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| quanta_ | but that has nothing to do with it being math | Sep 08 07:03 |
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| quanta_ | for example... let's say that we have the letters of the alphabet | Sep 08 07:03 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: it's math, all you use is math | Sep 08 07:04 |
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| quanta_ | a, b, c, d, etc. whatever | Sep 08 07:04 |
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| quanta_ | then lets say a+c=c | Sep 08 07:04 |
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| quanta_ | b+b=c | Sep 08 07:04 |
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| quanta_ | basically a is indexed to be like 0 | Sep 08 07:04 |
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| quanta_ | and z is 25 | Sep 08 07:04 |
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| seller_liar | indexing is math | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| schestowitz | quanta_: she me the patent/s | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| quanta_ | now the symbols have changed | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| seller_liar | addition is math | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| seller_liar | comparision is math ,variable concept is math | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| quanta_ | but let's say we are curious about the properties | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| quanta_ | like is the operation associative? | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| quanta_ | is it commutative? | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| seller_liar | all this is proved ,but is so simple which does not really call them of "theorems" | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| quanta_ | is there an identity? | Sep 08 07:05 |
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| quanta_ | determining such things and proving them is math | Sep 08 07:06 |
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| quanta_ | show you the patent/s? | Sep 08 07:06 |
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| quanta_ | you expect me to know the number or something? | Sep 08 07:06 |
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| quanta_ | I can't even remember what the patent was exactly. I was just pointing out that patents can benefit the creator of software. I didn't necessarily say that was the best way to go about things. | Sep 08 07:07 |
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| quanta_ | hell, you might kind of have to patent just so someone else doesn't rape you with their own patent first | Sep 08 07:07 |
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| quanta_ | which would suck | Sep 08 07:08 |
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| seller_liar | it's not benefical ,if is , it 's a cost of destruction for people | Sep 08 07:08 |
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| seller_liar | it's only benefical for the "owner" , but it's destructive for all rest | Sep 08 07:08 |
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| quanta | yeah, it might not be net beneficial, but this has nothing to do with programming not being math. | Sep 08 07:09 |
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| quanta | you can ask mathematical questions about programming even | Sep 08 07:10 |
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| quanta | like, what is the computational complexity of this algorithm? | Sep 08 07:10 |
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| quanta | but that doesn't make the program that runs the algorithm math | Sep 08 07:11 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: is math, maybe ,can be not only math,envolves arts | Sep 08 07:11 |
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| quanta | exactly, it's not just math | Sep 08 07:11 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: envolve other sciences, | Sep 08 07:11 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: but in theory can not to be patented | Sep 08 07:11 |
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| quanta | it uses math | Sep 08 07:11 |
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| quanta | but it takes much more than math | Sep 08 07:11 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: but if uses math,no patents | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| quanta | and you don't really have to care about the math the same way a mathematician does | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: and other sciences , no patents | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| quanta | no patents on the math part maybe | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: arts , no patents | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| quanta | but perhaps there might be some other element that is considered patentable | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| quanta | I'm not a patent lawyer | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: no! | Sep 08 07:12 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: that element exist because the other sciences and math, | Sep 08 07:13 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: remember ,arts =no patents | Sep 08 07:13 |
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| quanta | the point is, you have to show that the whole thing isn't patentable | Sep 08 07:13 |
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| quanta | not that math isn't patentable | Sep 08 07:13 |
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| quanta | because programming isn't math | Sep 08 07:13 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: but envolves math ,no patents | Sep 08 07:14 |
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| ZiggyFish | are we still on this topic | Sep 08 07:14 |
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| quanta | so? | Sep 08 07:14 |
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| ZiggyFish | so your wrong | Sep 08 07:14 |
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| quanta | engineering mechanical devices involves math, and that's patentable | Sep 08 07:14 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: in theory everything can not be patenteable | Sep 08 07:14 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: patents are a human tyranny | Sep 08 07:15 |
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| quanta | I think you can see where I'm going with this. Lots of things involve math and are still patentable. | Sep 08 07:15 |
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| quanta | so that alone is not enough. | Sep 08 07:15 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: a mistake | Sep 08 07:15 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: human tyranny | Sep 08 07:16 |
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| quanta | that things that involve math can be patented? | Sep 08 07:16 |
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| seller_liar | quanta:someone know the end since begining | Sep 08 07:16 |
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| ZiggyFish | anyway on a serious note, can someone please decrypt this javascript error message that IE gives me. Line 22 Char 17 Error Unknown runtime error, code 0 URL http://cwarn.org/ (not there is no javascript on that line and the script works in firefox and opera. | Sep 08 07:16 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: try konqueror ziggy | Sep 08 07:16 |
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| quanta | basically, you'd kind of have to argue that nearly every patent ought to be null and void since so many will involve math in some way or another | Sep 08 07:17 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: no , there's more reasons | Sep 08 07:17 |
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| quanta | but as long as we're clear on the fact that programming isn't math, it just uses it, then I think I've gotten my point across | Sep 08 07:18 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: installing konqueror now | Sep 08 07:18 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: is not ONLY MATH, but is math | Sep 08 07:18 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: ok | Sep 08 07:18 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: don't you love it when windows gives you so nice messages | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| schestowitz | In theory, everything *could* be patented. | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| schestowitz | Mayths too, even individual words of English. | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| ZiggyFish | yeah, even air | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| schestowitz | But people set boundaries to increase INNOVA~1 | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| quanta | It is often concerned with things like user input, or displaying things and interacting with hardware. None of this is math | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| schestowitz | And maths is a step too far. How on earth can a programmer do anything while 10,000 patents out there pertain to ideas? | Sep 08 07:19 |
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| quanta | Oh, I agree that people shouldn't be allowed to patent math | Sep 08 07:20 |
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| schestowitz | Try to write a bloody codec. | Sep 08 07:20 |
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| quanta | Because math is essentially a form of truth | Sep 08 07:20 |
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| quanta | You ask a question and there is an answer, but only one | Sep 08 07:20 |
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| quanta | this is not the case in programming | Sep 08 07:20 |
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| schestowitz | You then have 'patent pools'. How adorable! A code word for "gentlemen's club". Only rich company are permitted to participate in codecs. | Sep 08 07:20 |
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| ZiggyFish | quanta: not always | Sep 08 07:20 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: yes roy , again sorry for repetition, search for skinner "someone know the end since begining | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| quanta | given consistent axioms and some question, there is only one complete answer | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| quanta | partial answers don't count | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| quanta | answers can be equivalent | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: except the phrase, search only for skinner | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| schestowitz | seller_liar: just look what some guy called Bill Gates said about it. | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| quanta | but then they are the same answer | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| schestowitz | The greedy POS is now defending them. | Sep 08 07:21 |
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| schestowitz | Being big, they want fences (IBM too) but it's sheer hypocrisy. | Sep 08 07:22 |
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| schestowitz | Richard Stallman: "Thanks to Mr. Gates, we now know that an open Internet with protocols anyone can implement is communism; it was set up by that famous communist agent, the US Department of Defense." | Sep 08 07:22 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol | Sep 08 07:23 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: companies are the rest of roman empire (along with some governments) | Sep 08 07:23 |
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| quanta | computer programming does not to take some question then give a true answer by applying a set of axioms. It's more like building a house than mathematical reasoning. | Sep 08 07:24 |
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| seller_liar | quanta: ideas =! action | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| quanta_ | you ask, well, what do I want the house/program to do? | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| seller_liar | quanta_: ideas can not be patented | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: konqueror doesn't work, how do i get debugging information? | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| quanta_ | then how can anything be patented? | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| schestowitz | quanta_: bad analogy | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| schestowitz | Building a house is a physical process | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| schestowitz | There's no duplication | Sep 08 07:25 |
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| quanta_ | sorry, I really ought to say designing a house | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| quanta_ | like architecture | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| schestowitz | If I built one house, can I share the work to produce a nation of houses? | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| quanta_ | not building | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: do you have gdv | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: *gdb? | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| quanta_ | my slip-up | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| quanta_ | if you design a house, you need not build it | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| schestowitz | Can architecture be patented? | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| ZiggyFish | I can install it, yes | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| quanta_ | and you can indeed share the design | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| schestowitz | Are people banned from implementing an arc? | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| ZiggyFish | (already installed) | Sep 08 07:26 |
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| schestowitz | Can a person be sued for making a round pool? | Sep 08 07:27 |
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| quanta_ | I dunno if it can. I don't really care if it can. My point is that programming isn't math, not that programming ought to be patentable | Sep 08 07:27 |
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| schestowitz | quanta_: don't run away. | Sep 08 07:27 |
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| seller_liar | you use ideas to make physical actions | Sep 08 07:27 |
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| schestowitz | You brought up this example. | Sep 08 07:27 |
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| seller_liar | ideas it's not physical actions | Sep 08 07:27 |
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| schestowitz | Architecture is geometry. | Sep 08 07:27 |
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| quanta_ | What? I brought this up because it involves using various ideas and design. Not because it is or isn't patentable. | Sep 08 07:28 |
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| schestowitz | Mickey mouse monopoly? Know anything about it? | Sep 08 07:28 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: any ideas | Sep 08 07:28 |
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| schestowitz | Or the inability to just draw a stripe because Nike might claim ownership? | Sep 08 07:28 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: have you installed gdb? | Sep 08 07:28 |
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| ZiggyFish | yes | Sep 08 07:29 |
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| quanta | what does this have to do with the question of how programming is math? | Sep 08 07:29 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: disable javascript in konqueror | Sep 08 07:29 |
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| quanta | I've already said. Math shouldn't be patentable, because it's like patenting truth. | Sep 08 07:29 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: done | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| schestowitz | quanta: on whose behalf do you approach this? Do you have a software patent? | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| quanta | nope, | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: try now | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| quanta | I came because I do mathematics work | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| quanta | and I thought it really fucking weird for programming to be called math | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| quanta | pet peeve | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| schestowitz | It's higher-level maths. | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| schestowitz | Broken down, the two can be compared. | Sep 08 07:30 |
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| schestowitz | Language is semantics, devices are physics. | Sep 08 07:31 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: I see | Sep 08 07:31 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: but without javascript is ugly no? | Sep 08 07:31 |
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| ZiggyFish | yep | Sep 08 07:32 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: try to enable and update the page | Sep 08 07:32 |
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| quanta | schestowitz: continue please | Sep 08 07:32 |
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| ZiggyFish | are I see | Sep 08 07:32 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: what? | Sep 08 07:33 |
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| quanta_ | goddamn connection | Sep 08 07:34 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: what am i meant to see | Sep 08 07:35 |
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| schestowitz | We're twirling around the same points. | Sep 08 07:35 |
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| quanta_ | ?_? | Sep 08 07:35 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish:Have been the problem resolved? | Sep 08 07:35 |
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| ZiggyFish | yeah | Sep 08 07:36 |
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| ZiggyFish | no | Sep 08 07:36 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: no? | Sep 08 07:36 |
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| ZiggyFish | yeah, sorry | Sep 08 07:36 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: good! | Sep 08 07:36 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: but try now with firefox and opera | Sep 08 07:36 |
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| seller_liar | schestowitz: hey roy There are a the ideal license for volatile documents ? | Sep 08 07:38 |
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| ZiggyFish | are yes, I see, doesn't look good without javascript | Sep 08 07:38 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: try to use wine + IEs for linux | Sep 08 07:40 |
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| ZiggyFish | I have a vm running | Sep 08 07:41 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: in firefox 3 with linux works well..... | Sep 08 07:41 |
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| schestowitz | Bl00dy hell: http://gamer.blorge.com/2008/09/06/in-depth... | Sep 08 07:41 |
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| ZiggyFish | seller_liar: yeah (what I used to test it), opera on linux works too | Sep 08 07:42 |
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| quanta | god damn fucking connection #%#%#@$#$! | Sep 08 07:43 |
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| quanta | excuse me | Sep 08 07:43 |
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| schestowitz | quanta: documents? | Sep 08 07:45 |
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| seller_liar | ZiggyFish: I'm not using windows sorry | Sep 08 07:45 |
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| ZiggyFish | opera is available for linux too | Sep 08 07:45 |
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| ZiggyFish1 | sorry, (internet stopped working) | Sep 08 07:52 |
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| ZiggyFish1 | my site works in chrome | Sep 08 07:59 |
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| lucian | ZiggyFish1: hum | Sep 08 08:00 |
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| schestowitz | :- S http://phorolinux.com/ubuntu-810-intrepi... Why doesn't Canonical pick one of the many wonderful themes from gnome-look? Sure, ti's taste-dependent, but the default looks bland to me. Themes (looks) mean the /mos/ the people due to first impressions. | Sep 08 08:07 |
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| ZiggyFish | LOL, I believe the definition of IE is "IE is a tool released by Microsoft to aid one in navigation to Mozilla.org to download the Firefox web browser. | Sep 08 10:11 |
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| MinceR | i tend to call it "backdoor with GUI" | Sep 08 10:12 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol | Sep 08 10:13 |
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| schestowitz | Installer (drive-by) | Sep 08 10:15 |
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| *benJIman wonders if schestowitz will blog about http://www.microsoft.com/uk/getthefacts/lse.mspx in the light of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main... | Sep 08 14:01 |
| schestowitz | Ha. _Again_? | Sep 08 14:02 |
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| benJIman | "● | Sep 08 14:03 |
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| benJIman | One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days" | Sep 08 14:03 |
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| schestowitz | You'd think they learned from the earlier crashes. | Sep 08 14:03 |
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| schestowitz | Markets crash, planes crash (FAA)... well, but just the system. | Sep 08 14:04 |
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| trmanco | London's stocks exchange system crashed? | Sep 08 15:38 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, gimme 5 minutes and a post will be up. :-)) | Sep 08 15:39 |
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| trmanco | :) | Sep 08 15:41 |
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| trmanco | Microsoft ftw | Sep 08 15:41 |
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| schestowitz | It's a .NET unsuccess story. Miguel will be happy. | Sep 08 15:41 |
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| *trmanco just *Giggled* | Sep 08 15:41 |
| trmanco | lets see what the Microsofties have to say about this crash | Sep 08 15:47 |
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| schestowitz | I did it in a rush, so it's kind of yucky (the English), but here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0... | Sep 08 15:48 |
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| trmanco | thanks | Sep 08 15:49 |
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| trmanco | about this quote "One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days", IMHO there is nothing 100% reliable | Sep 08 15:50 |
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| schestowitz | "But we had a good uptime". Compare that to other markets that almost never go down (never heard of it in Wall Street for example) | Sep 08 15:52 |
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| trmanco | what does wall street run? | Sep 08 15:52 |
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| schestowitz | I syndicate YouTube on "Novell". This one came up just a moment ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F557Pv6iLw | Sep 08 15:53 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: UNIX and Linux as far as I know (moving towards the latter). See the references at the bottom of my new post. | Sep 08 15:54 |
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| trmanco | I missed the references 12 and 13 | Sep 08 15:55 |
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| schestowitz | BBC gets slammed: http://www.itpro.co.uk/blogs/andrewm/2008... | Sep 08 16:47 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/... | Sep 08 17:01 |
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| schestowitz | Someone in GL has just found this gold mine: http://sco.tuxrocks.com/Docs/DRDOS/ | Sep 08 17:26 |
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| trmanco | hp://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Sep-07.html | Sep 08 17:45 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I wrote about it. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/... | Sep 08 17:48 |
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| schestowitz | It turns out that ITNews might have a link to IDG after all. | Sep 08 17:59 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.linkedin.com/in/liztay http://www.google.com/search?sou... http://www.itnews.com.au/News/8... | Sep 08 17:59 |
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| trmanco | I've just started reading my feeds, so I haven't had a chance to read BN's feed yet :P | Sep 08 18:00 |
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| MinceR | http://troopers.fi/~kemmler/epic/macminiupgrade.jpg | Sep 08 18:07 |
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| PetoKraus | lol, MinceR | Sep 08 18:09 |
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| schestowitz | Today: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10034496-16.html "I'm an Apple fan. I have been spending a lot of money on Apple products for years. But I'm also in the software business, and can't imagine treating my own partners as poorly as Apple apparently treats its developer partners." | Sep 08 18:10 |
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| cj | schestowitz: thanks | Sep 08 18:23 |
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| Tallken | schestowitz: you there? | Sep 08 20:48 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, what's up? | Sep 08 20:48 |
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| Tallken | gotta go, nothing special | Sep 08 20:53 |
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| Tallken | talk to you later :) | Sep 08 20:53 |
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| trmanco | lol | Sep 08 20:56 |
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| tessier_ | TradElect, the Microsoft .Net based trading platform for the London Stock Exchange was offline for about seven hours, meaning that their 5-nines SLAs are shot for approximately the next 100 years. The TradElect system was launched back in June of 2007 and was designed for increased speed and system capacity | Sep 08 21:00 |
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| tessier_ | You guys hear about that? | Sep 08 21:00 |
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| tessier_ | http://news.google.com/news?q=tradelect... | Sep 08 21:00 |
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| schestowitz | I' being challenged about it. | Sep 08 21:00 |
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| MinceR | yeah, schestowitz has written an article on it | Sep 08 21:00 |
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| tessier_ | Should be some good fun to poke there | Sep 08 21:01 |
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| schestowitz | Can it be confirmed which layer of the stack is to blame? | Sep 08 21:01 |
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| MinceR | that's what a microsoft fanboy would say ;) | Sep 08 21:01 |
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| tessier_ | The LSE said the system had been hit by a "connectivity issue" and insisted that the problem did not lie with its flagship TradElect trading platform. | Sep 08 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | Are any other systems in London affected by network issues? | Sep 08 21:02 |
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| schestowitz | BTW I have some maintenance work done here tomorrow, so I'll be offline for half a day. | Sep 08 21:02 |
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| ZiggyFish | hey schestowitz are you ther | Sep 08 21:22 |
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| ZiggyFish | http://www.linuxjournal.com/cont... | Sep 08 21:24 |
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| ZiggyFish | Pointless Patents | Sep 08 21:24 |
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| ZiggyFish | The software giant applied for the patent in 2005, and was granted it on August 19, 2008. US patent number 7,415,666 describes "a method and system in a document viewer for scrolling a substantially exact increment in a document, such as one page, regardless of whether the zoom is such that some, all or one page is currently being viewed". | Sep 08 21:24 |
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| ZiggyFish | (Micrsoft) | Sep 08 21:24 |
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| ZiggyFish | This is worse than Amazon's one-click-checkout. Who's gonna be the first to patent how to pinch a turd? | Sep 08 21:27 |
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| tessier_ | "Method for dilating annular cutting device for the purpose of separating waste from the producer" | Sep 08 21:28 |
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| MinceR | lol | Sep 08 21:29 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol | Sep 08 21:29 |
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| ZiggyFish | reading some commnets | Sep 08 21:29 |
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| ZiggyFish | I'm going to patent sexual intercourse now. That's right. Putting penis into vagina and thrusting in and out until ejaculation was my idea. So now I must be paid royalties whenever somebody engages in copulation. I will soon have more money than even Gates...yes. So go on guys and mount your girlfriends while I laugh all the way to the bank. | Sep 08 21:30 |
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| MinceR | mount /dev/gf0? | Sep 08 21:31 |
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| ZiggyFish | heheheh | Sep 08 21:32 |
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| ZiggyFish | more like mount /dev/gf5 ;) | Sep 08 21:33 |
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| MinceR | :) | Sep 08 21:34 |
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| ZiggyFish | what about this one | Sep 08 21:39 |
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| ZiggyFish | IBM Tries to Patent Making Money from Patents <http://blogs.wsj.com/bizte...> | Sep 08 21:39 |
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| ZiggyFish | Yes, IBM appears to be trying to get a patent for making money from patents. What’s funny about this patent is that it’s triggered a debate: Is this just another absurd attempt to profit from something everybody does (like this now-withdrawn application for a patent on outsourcing)? Or is this application part of a benevolent plan to prevent others from profiting from absurd patents? | Sep 08 21:40 |
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| ZiggyFish | which is true | Sep 08 21:40 |
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| dsmith_ | http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS29... | Sep 08 23:35 |
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| dsmith_ | Lenovo ditches Linux | Sep 08 23:35 |
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| cj | eep. no more linux on lenovo? That's too bad. I was pretty impressed with my experience. | Sep 08 23:55 |
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