Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 22nd, 2009 - Part 1


Enter the IRC channel now

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

oiaohmI don't fear anyone.   If you have technically screwed up pray.Apr 22 00:00
tessier_I'm SO close to just telling my boss off and quitting.Apr 22 00:00
tessier_I have a feeling I'm pretty darn close to having another offer lined up.Apr 22 00:00
wispygalaxyhi oiaohm and tessier_Apr 22 00:00
oiaohmMy boss knows me.Apr 22 00:00
oiaohmTelling him off is kinda regular.Apr 22 00:00
wispygalaxywhat's wrong, boss troubles?Apr 22 00:00
wispygalaxymy dad doesnt like his boss, either hahaApr 22 00:01
tessier_Yes. And I am totally de-motivated.Apr 22 00:01
tessier_This is the sort of guy who will threaten to fire you if you don't agree that he's a genious.Apr 22 00:01
wispygalaxythat sucks, maybe taking a walk will cheer you up.  it helps me certainlyApr 22 00:01
tessier_And loves lording his masters degree over my head.Apr 22 00:02
wispygalaxyi think he has low self-esteemApr 22 00:02
wispygalaxythere's a guy like that at my dad's work.  he takes the credit for what my dad does, but in the end my dad lets everyone know that that it really was his ideaApr 22 00:03
oiaohmLast boss to do that to me got annoyed when I printed out a batch of resumes at work.Apr 22 00:05
oiaohmMind you its my current boss.Apr 22 00:05
wispygalaxyis he stressed or is touchy in generalApr 22 00:06
wispygalaxylittle things bother people when they are stressedApr 22 00:07
schestowitzhere is the part that explains RAF bases in the UK are US bases in disguise: 22 00:08
wispygalaxyscary!Apr 22 00:09
wispygalaxyanyway, who's excited for ubuntu 9.04?Apr 22 00:11
schestowitzI enjoy this man's talksApr 22 00:11
schestowitzushimitsudoki: he talks about Okinawa tooApr 22 00:11
wispygalaxyjapan?Apr 22 00:11
schestowitzI think it's part of its sovereignty.Apr 22 00:12
wispygalaxyah i seeApr 22 00:12
wispygalaxyi want to go to japan, i hear it's not as crazy as people say it isApr 22 00:12
wispygalaxystill... i want to see for myself haha :PApr 22 00:12
wispygalaxyi like the fashion, and im a fan of sushiApr 22 00:13
oiaohmThat is the thing.Apr 22 00:16
*_boo_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 00:16
oiaohmI don't know how to stress.Apr 22 00:16
oiaohmI know how to focus in.Apr 22 00:16
oiaohmSo network coming to bits I will be standing there perfectly carm.Apr 22 00:17
wispygalaxyi stress a lot.  i find it helpful to write down what is bothering meApr 22 00:17
oiaohmMajor things that have annoyed bosses is when I am fully focused in on a problem I am 100 percent deaf.Apr 22 00:17
wispygalaxythen i make a list of things to do to solve thingsApr 22 00:17
wispygalaxyyou hyperfocus on things?Apr 22 00:18
schestowitzoiaohm would find this interesting: When the dollars is exchanged for Euros, that'll be *it*Apr 22 00:18
wispygalaxyits when you concentrate on something so hard that you ignore that outside worldApr 22 00:18
schestowitzWho knows what it'll do for the European economyApr 22 00:19
oiaohmI was deaf for the first 6 years of my life wispygalaxyApr 22 00:19
wispygalaxyoh i seeApr 22 00:19
oiaohmGiving up my hearing gives me an extra 15 percent to my thinking power.Apr 22 00:19
*_boo_ ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 00:19
oiaohmNormal person does not gain anything from not hearing the outside world.Apr 22 00:20
schestowitzDouble negativesApr 22 00:20
wispygalaxythats interesting, oiaohmApr 22 00:20
schestowitzI see now.Apr 22 00:20
schestowitzA lot of communication is not based on vision and typing.Apr 22 00:20
wispygalaxy90% of what we observe is visual, learned that from a science videoApr 22 00:20
wispygalaxysome people find it easier to communicate via typing/text; the meaning doesn't get lost that wayApr 22 00:22
tessier_wispygalaxy: I bet 90% of what we hear is aural tooApr 22 00:22
wispygalaxyyea lolApr 22 00:23
_boo_90% of what we eat is foodApr 22 00:23
*Eruaran has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 00:24
wispygalaxyso i wonder what that 10% isApr 22 00:24
wispygalaxychemicals, perhaps?Apr 22 00:24
wispygalaxythe livestock raised on farms eat feathers, hormones, and other gross stuff.Apr 22 00:25
oiaohmStraigh thing is 15 percent almost instantly.Apr 22 00:25
oiaohmgained to my thinking.Apr 22 00:25
_boo_wispygalaxy if we take chemicals into account... it's most likely 50% chemicals XDApr 22 00:25
oiaohmI don't know where my thinking power deaf ends.Apr 22 00:26
oiaohmNever stayed deaf long enough to find out.Apr 22 00:26
wispygalaxyyes, and genetic engineering will increase that, booApr 22 00:26
oiaohm4 hours is not enough.  I was still slowly gaining.Apr 22 00:26
wispygalaxyeverybody has different ways of thinking, it makes us unique :)Apr 22 00:27
Balroghi everyoneApr 22 00:28
wispygalaxyheyy balrog!Apr 22 00:29
*Balrog_ ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 00:29
wispygalaxywelcome to the BN party :)Apr 22 00:29
Balrog_:PApr 22 00:29
Balrog_what's going on right now?Apr 22 00:29
oiaohmNothing much.Apr 22 00:30
*mib_9a6ypc (i=c352a48c@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 00:30
wispygalaxyim working on a management case study at the computerApr 22 00:30
*mib_r6lyjp (i=ca0c9015@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 00:30
wispygalaxyhow's your CS classes, balrog?Apr 22 00:30
Balrog_cool.Apr 22 00:30
Balrog_CS classes ok. English / History classes ... :(Apr 22 00:31
schestowitzI've just posted many links. Time for bed.Apr 22 00:31
wispygalaxyi hated english class, too many papers to writeApr 22 00:31
wispygalaxymy sister loves history class, good for her i guess hahaApr 22 00:32
wispygalaxyyou are going to bed , roy?Apr 22 00:32
Balrog_heh yes. it's cool, just too many essays :/Apr 22 00:32
wispygalaxyi rather do problems than essaysApr 22 00:32
wispygalaxyfrom the text, i meanApr 22 00:33
Balrog_ahh yeah.Apr 22 00:33
wispygalaxyit's so straightforwardApr 22 00:33
wispygalaxywith literature essays, you need to provide tons of evidence for what you want to say.  it gets annoying having to search through the book for quotesApr 22 00:34
wispygalaxyi had tons of post-its in my books (which marked where the quotes were) when i wrote essaysApr 22 00:34
Balrog_lol.Apr 22 00:36
_boo_yeah, literature is annoyingApr 22 00:38
wispygalaxyit's a lot of BSing lolApr 22 00:38
_boo_with all that formality or the fact that you don't choose what you're writing aboutApr 22 00:38
wispygalaxyespecially when it comes to finding the symbolism of things in a novelApr 22 00:39
Balrog_yeah :(Apr 22 00:39
wispygalaxyone person can say this object represents x, another can say it represents yApr 22 00:39
Balrog_exactly.Apr 22 00:39
_boo_waste of timeApr 22 00:40
Balrog_heh yeahApr 22 00:40
wispygalaxythats why i hated the exams for english class.  the multiple choice problems would say:  "what does this stand for" and give you 4 choices.  the thing is that i didn't think that any of those 4 choices represented the symbolApr 22 00:41
Balrog_though I know a kid who changed his major from CS to english thinking english would be easier ... not soApr 22 00:41
Balrog_lolApr 22 00:41
*mib_59y5ie has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 00:41
wispygalaxymy roommate last year was friends with an english major.  she had to read a book per week.  every class consisted of papers/essaysApr 22 00:41
_boo_that's dumbApr 22 00:42
wispygalaxythe history majors have to do the same thingApr 22 00:42
Balrog_yeah.Apr 22 00:42
wispygalaxyi'm content with my finance major, not a lot of writing and lot of number crunchingApr 22 00:42
Balrog_I prefer programming .... and doing physics stuff ;)Apr 22 00:43
wispygalaxywe call the accounting majors in my finance classes "bean counters"Apr 22 00:43
wispygalaxythat's great that you found something you like, i know a lot of kids who don't know what to major inApr 22 00:44
wispygalaxythey are "open options" majorsApr 22 00:44
wispygalaxythey take general classes then select a major at the end of sophomore yearApr 22 00:44
Balrog_heh bean counters... I know many of them ... generally don't consider the long term and only look to maximize short term [profits, etc]Apr 22 00:44
Balrog_yeah.Apr 22 00:44
wispygalaxyyes, and that is a problem for many firmsApr 22 00:44
wispygalaxythey tend to consider things "costs" not investmentsApr 22 00:45
Balrog_a friend who works at akamai solutions complained about that.Apr 22 00:45
Balrog_yes.Apr 22 00:45
wispygalaxytherefore, they miss out on long term benefits because they were too cheapApr 22 00:45
Balrog_yes.Apr 22 00:45
Balrog_I'm looking at dell mini 9 ....Apr 22 00:45
wispygalaxyi want one tooApr 22 00:46
wispygalaxyi don't like heavy laptopsApr 22 00:46
Balrog_it's the one that can run hackintosh really well ... if you want to run hackintosh. Or you can run ubuntuApr 22 00:46
Balrog_heavy laptops are good for doing real workApr 22 00:46
wispygalaxyi'm skinny and find it hard to carry my laptop around, it hurts my shoulder :(Apr 22 00:47
Balrog_I'm skinny too ... a lot of books to carry already :( )Apr 22 00:47
*_boo_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 00:47
wispygalaxythat sucksApr 22 00:47
Balrog_interestingly MS forbids dell from bundling xp with the mini 9 unless the RAM and disk are limitedApr 22 00:48
wispygalaxyi have 3 classes back to back, so i have to carry tons of books because i have no time to go back to my roomApr 22 00:48
Balrog_ew. I have a similar situationApr 22 00:48
Balrog_back to back classesApr 22 00:48
Balrog_even sometimes 'overlapping' classes though that's generally not the caseApr 22 00:49
wispygalaxyat the end of that 3-class marathon, i have a 3 hour classApr 22 00:49
wispygalaxytwo classes (2 hours each) and a 3 hour classApr 22 00:49
Balrog_argh. My longest class is 8:10-10 amApr 22 00:49
Balrog_no 3-hr classesApr 22 00:49
wispygalaxyit meets once a week, not twice a week like the regular 1.5 hr classesApr 22 00:49
*mib_t938gw (i=5445ca13@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 00:50
Balrog_I see.Apr 22 00:50
*air_ ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 00:50
wispygalaxyi dont have the overlapping problem, whewApr 22 00:50
wispygalaxynext semester im not taking any 3 hour classes, thoughApr 22 00:50
Balrog_I'm doing summer classesApr 22 00:50
Balrog_IH 1, calc 3, and differential equationsApr 22 00:50
wispygalaxyneat, my friend did that and liked itApr 22 00:50
wispygalaxyit's more laid-backApr 22 00:50
wispygalaxysince it's summer, i guess hahaApr 22 00:51
Balrog_heh yeah.Apr 22 00:51
wispygalaxymy little sister is learning how to drive nowApr 22 00:53
wispygalaxyshe's 16Apr 22 00:53
Balrog_cool. I'm too busy + insurance is a lot :(Apr 22 00:53
wispygalaxythe good news is that colleges offer buses, and entertainment is near campusApr 22 00:54
Balrog_I take the train ... it's not far for meApr 22 00:54
wispygalaxyi live between philly and nyc, so i can go to either for funApr 22 00:54
Balrog_cool. I'm here in phillyApr 22 00:55
wispygalaxyi have to take the bus from here, then take a train to nycApr 22 00:55
Balrog_never been in nyc ...Apr 22 00:55
wispygalaxyi've been there a couple of times, it's nice in the spring timeApr 22 00:55
wispygalaxycentral park is coolApr 22 00:55
Balrog_nice. I hear everything is really expensive ther.Apr 22 00:56
Balrog_there *Apr 22 00:56
wispygalaxyyes, in manhattan.  the monthly rent can skyrocket tooApr 22 00:57
wispygalaxyi've also been to camden, nj.  it's not as scary as they say it is (people think it's a ghetto).  the aquarium over there is funApr 22 00:57
Balrog_yeah. haven't been there either.Apr 22 00:58
wispygalaxyit may look a bit underdevelopedApr 22 00:58
Balrog_lolApr 22 00:58
Balrog_camden?Apr 22 00:58
wispygalaxyit's famous for being a scary place in njApr 22 00:58
wispygalaxysouth jerseyApr 22 00:58
wispygalaxymy sister went to ozzfest with her friend in camden lolApr 22 00:58
wispygalaxyozzfest is where bands play in the summerApr 22 00:59
wispygalaxymy mom was very reluctant to let my sis to go to ozzfest because she thought punks were scary, but nothing really happenedApr 22 00:59
Balrog_lolApr 22 00:59
wispygalaxyshe went with her friend and her friend's parents, by the wayApr 22 01:00
wispygalaxythe jersey beaches are wonderful, i like seaside heights and point pleasantApr 22 01:01
wispygalaxyhave you been to the beach lately?Apr 22 01:01
Balrog_we never have been going to the beach. Though my family likes to go to places like lancaster cty.Apr 22 01:01
Balrog_(county)Apr 22 01:02
wispygalaxyi've been to lancaster cty before on vacationApr 22 01:02
wispygalaxyhershey park is near thereApr 22 01:03
wispygalaxyas in hershey chocolateApr 22 01:03
Balrog_hershey park is like 40 miles fartherApr 22 01:04
wispygalaxyi've been to hershey at least 3 timesApr 22 01:04
Balrog_cool. how is it there?Apr 22 01:05
*oiaohm_ ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 01:05
wispygalaxyonce you go in you can take a tour of how they make the hershey chocolateApr 22 01:05
wispygalaxyevery gift shop is filled with chocolate, needless to sayApr 22 01:06
wispygalaxybut i like the rides betterApr 22 01:06
wispygalaxymy mom will not go on roller coasters hahaApr 22 01:06
wispygalaxyshe only likes the ferris wheelApr 22 01:06
Balrog_I'm not big into rides.Apr 22 01:06
*oiaohm has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Apr 22 01:07
wispygalaxyi love roller coasters, it doesn't scare me one bitApr 22 01:07
wispygalaxymy sis went on the kingda ka (the largest coaster in the world)Apr 22 01:08
wispygalaxyhere's a pic: 22 01:08
wispygalaxyit goes straight up, then straight downApr 22 01:08
wispygalaxymy sis went on that when she was 14Apr 22 01:08
wispygalaxyand survivedApr 22 01:09
Balrog_lolApr 22 01:09
wispygalaxyi have to go on that, tooApr 22 01:09
wispygalaxyshe beat me to it, grrrApr 22 01:09
wispygalaxyXDApr 22 01:09
wispygalaxyone kid died on that, though.  he fell out since he was too smallApr 22 01:10
*mib_9a6ypc has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 01:12
Balrog_you mean, one kid ever? Why did they let someone who was too small on?Apr 22 01:12
wispygalaxyyeah, the news said that he was too small. i guess the ride operators didnt careApr 22 01:12
wispygalaxythey were too distracted i thinkApr 22 01:12
Balrog_that's not good.Apr 22 01:14
wispygalaxyi'm certainly tall enough for rides, but i hope im not too skinny for them.  i always make sure the harness is on extra tight right before the ride startsApr 22 01:15
*mib_t938gw has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 01:16
Balrog_lolApr 22 01:17
Balrog_I never tried, so idk.Apr 22 01:19
Balrog_better things to do ;)Apr 22 01:19
wispygalaxyif you really wanna know how it's like riding it, start off slowly and build up tons of confidenceApr 22 01:20
wispygalaxysure, i agree, balrog :)Apr 22 01:20
wispygalaxyschool is almost out for me, in about 2.5 weeksApr 22 01:24
wispygalaxyand i'm stuck doing projects nowApr 22 01:25
Balrog_same here :(Apr 22 01:25
wispygalaxywhy do teachers pile up stuff near the end of courses??Apr 22 01:25
Balrog_no idea.Apr 22 01:25
wispygalaxyi guess it's due to procrastinationApr 22 01:26
Balrog_maybe. On the part of the teacher and the student, I supposeApr 22 01:26
wispygalaxywell, it'll be done soon.  i feel sorry for my little sis still stuck in high school- she's done in mid/late juneApr 22 01:27
Balrog_yeah :/Apr 22 01:28
wispygalaxyanyway, i have to go now.  it was fun talking to you!  :)Apr 22 01:30
wispygalaxygood night, everyoneApr 22 01:31
Balrog_good nightApr 22 01:32
Balrog_see you around soon :)Apr 22 01:32
wispygalaxyi'll chat with you soon!Apr 22 01:32
wispygalaxy^_^Apr 22 01:32
*wispygalaxy has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 01:33
*magentar_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 01:51
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 01:52
*mib_79dkda (i=0ca9a341@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 02:05
mib_79dkdahey roy, are you here?Apr 22 02:06
mib_79dkdathis is carla at linux todayApr 22 02:06
mib_79dkdawondering if you had seen thisApr 22 02:06
mib_79dkda 22 02:06
Balrog_roy isn't here right nowApr 22 02:08
mib_79dkdaokApr 22 02:08
mib_79dkdait's a fun read :)Apr 22 02:09
mib_79dkdaI'll keep an eye on boycottnovell in case he covers itApr 22 02:09
mib_79dkdaand now I am going to go goof off. have a nice evening everyone!Apr 22 02:10
*mib_79dkda has quit (Client Quit)Apr 22 02:10
*Balrog_ has quit ()Apr 22 02:13
*dsmith_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 02:19
*mib_kjg6ts has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 02:23
*mib_b68jbw (i=7c0d6aca@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 02:59
*twitter ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 03:02
*Carl_Rover2k12 ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 03:15
*Carl_Rover2k12 has quit (Client Quit)Apr 22 03:16
*Carl_Rover2k12 ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 03:18
*Carl_Rover2k12 has quit ()Apr 22 03:23
*kentma ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 03:25
*mib_13r3gp (i=47919416@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 03:26
air_yay... i found good torrent clienApr 22 03:30
air_tApr 22 03:30
air_oops, a bit wrong channelApr 22 03:31
twitterno problem, shareApr 22 03:31
air_azureus :))Apr 22 03:31
*mib_b68jbw has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 03:31
air_looks almost like utorrent and has plenty of settingsApr 22 03:32
air_little bit less comfortable but it's old version in either case :)Apr 22 03:32
twitterMepis used to come with that.Apr 22 03:32
twitterI still use ncurses.Apr 22 03:33
air_i wanna have full visual control and mouseApr 22 03:33
air_spoiled with windows... you knowApr 22 03:34
twitternoApr 22 03:34
twitter:)Apr 22 03:34
air_what no... i'm boo and iwmw and ... so you knowApr 22 03:34
*kentma1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 22 03:41
*mib_b68jbw (i=7664ba34@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 03:41
*mib_fvth9p (i=5d5ba505@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 03:53
*mib_fvth9p has quit (Client Quit)Apr 22 03:54
*mib_kjg6ts (i=7aa74564@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 04:04
*mib_13r3gp has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 04:04
*zer0c00l has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 04:18
*twitter has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Apr 22 05:10
air_wow, azureus seems to be even more informative than utorrentApr 22 05:21
*mib_vtuzfa has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 05:49
*mib_r6lyjp has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 05:56
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))Apr 22 05:56
*amarsh04 ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 06:06
*mib_b68jbw has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 06:17
*mib_b68jbw (i=7664ba34@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 06:21
*Omar87 has quit ("Leaving.")Apr 22 06:26
*mib_v0aaa7 has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 06:32
*mib_kjg6ts has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 06:34
*twitter ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 06:45
twitterPriceless.  GL calls Alex Brown a prominent troll, 22 06:45
*mib_c3tngl (i=45b49adc@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 06:47
*ushimitsudoki has quit ("Leaving.")Apr 22 07:01
*ushimitsudoki ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 07:07
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.")Apr 22 07:07
*mib_7ewxns (i=c13ecbd6@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 07:17
schestowitzI am suspiciousApr 22 07:20
schestowitzThis person < > show up ONLY when I write about security and always defends Microsoft using a Web proxyApr 22 07:21
*mib_rsoc2q (i=c2ed8e07@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 07:42
ushimitsudokiThat comment is bogus anyway. For example, the commentor (Yggdrasil) takes you to task for not mentioning that the Computer World article says that "some user action was clearly required"...However:Apr 22 07:47
ushimitsudoki1. That is speculation (and noted as so) in the computer world articleApr 22 07:48
schestowitzYes, you should see all the comments from himApr 22 07:48
ushimitsudoki2. "user action" could mean anything from "clicking OK on a EULA-like notice" to "turning on the computer". weasel words are tricky like thatApr 22 07:48
schestowitzHe shows up out of nothing with a proxy and a Linux distro name just to attack arguments about security.Apr 22 07:48
*schestowitz watches 22 07:49
ushimitsudokiBTW, I like the effort on the wiki main page and I hope you consider simplifying the blog-side of the site. You know I enjoy the content, but the presentation is a bit in need of a clean up. Keep it up, though!Apr 22 07:51
schestowitzYes, I don't know what to doApr 22 08:02
schestowitzThere are limitations in the software (CMS)Apr 22 08:02
schestowitzWhat bothers me the most (Well, lets me down rather) is that we have some very good old posts like the ones about MS vs Intel and it's buried too deep inside.Apr 22 08:02
schestowitzSo going to the 'drawing board' so to speak, it's time to subdivide into logical units and create some sort of tree structure. WordPress won't enable such a thingApr 22 08:03
air_seems like it's yet another time to ban-evadeApr 22 08:06
air_they banned me for their intolerance to gay intolerantApr 22 08:07
air_AGAINApr 22 08:07
*air_ ( has left #boycottnovell ("Leaving")Apr 22 08:08
schestowitzBN did over 10GB of traffic yesterdayApr 22 08:10
schestowitzOur best ever was almost 20GBApr 22 08:10
schestowitz[]When we leaked OOXML IIRC]Apr 22 08:10
*blankthemuffin (n=josh@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 08:14
*Aondo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 22 08:18
blankthemuffinwhy are you boycotting microsoft in the first place? I presume you don't actually release software as if it's not already apparent, they have by far the market share. By limiting interop with microsoft platforms, nobody will ever switch over. The real world doesn't care about something being truly open. Lets investigate a conventionally microsoft market. Games. Game Developer X doesn't care about linux because it's a pain to port to, and noboApr 22 08:21
blankthemuffindy uses it anyway. Indie Game Developer Y, would like in theory to support linux, but unless it's simple, it's not worth the bother. Hello Mono, now indie game developer Y can support both platforms with ease, adding another fun game to linux's arsenal, and allowing more people to share a fuller experience when using linux. After the initial few games, people start seeing it as a legit platform and target it more seriously, people who try outApr 22 08:21
blankthemuffin linux are now loosing less of their traditional uses, and this lowers the entry barrier. Now the entry barrier is lower, more people use it and hence more developers care.Apr 22 08:21
*mib_rsoc2q has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Apr 22 08:22
*mib_grtb5s has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Apr 22 08:22
ushimitsudokiblankthemuffin: You do know that Microsoft has actively and as a matter of policy sought to intentionally destroy linux and open source for over a decade? That's somewhere around reason one for me anyway.Apr 22 08:23
blankthemuffinSure, but you're missing the point. Anybody serious in the software world cannot do this. It's absurd.Apr 22 08:24
ushimitsudokiI know. If only Sun, IBM, id software could see that. They aren't really serious in the software game though.Apr 22 08:25
*Aondo (i=stian@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 08:25
blankthemuffinYou're saying "Yeah don't provide any interop just in case microsoft pull something on it - yeah, just ignore 95% of your potential userbase" and it's all for ideological reasons.Apr 22 08:26
ushimitsudokiThat's not true, but let's say it what? *Someone* has to provide ideology.Apr 22 08:27
ushimitsudokiAnd that's not what I'm saying anyway, you are fighting a straw man by putting words in my mouth -- or do you really think the takeaway here is "Yeah don't provide any interop just in case microsoft pull something on it - yeah, just ignore 95% of your potential userbase"Apr 22 08:28
blankthemuffinIdeology is fine, but you seem to be ignoring the practical aspects of it.Apr 22 08:28
ushimitsudokiNo. There are numerous cross-platform tools that are not dependent on microft. OpenGL / Flash / Java and many more (to varying degrees)Apr 22 08:28
ushimitsudokiand for varying purposesApr 22 08:29
blankthemuffinAnd two of them are dependent on other third parties.Apr 22 08:29
ushimitsudokiSo?Apr 22 08:29
blankthemuffinWhat's the difference between them and microsoft.Apr 22 08:29
ushimitsudokiAll 3rd parties are not equal. Surely you can see that?Apr 22 08:29
ushimitsudokiSeriously?Apr 22 08:29
ushimitsudokiStart here if you are honestly asking that question: 22 08:29
blankthemuffinyes seriously, who cares what microsoft thinks of open source software, they have a good product.Apr 22 08:30
blankthemuffinLets ignore a superior product because microsoft is evilApr 22 08:30
ushimitsudokiI disagree with the assertion that MS has a superior product, but even if we grant that, I do not see that the "best product" means it is the "right thing".Apr 22 08:31
ushimitsudokiThere can be things that are immoral, for example, that are more practical than what we consider moral choices.Apr 22 08:32
blankthemuffinyes but this is hardly immoral now is it.Apr 22 08:33
blankthemuffinCompared with Java, I would say microsoft has a very superior product, as that seems to be the way you lot are pushing.Apr 22 08:33
ushimitsudokiI think it is, which is exactly why I am opposed to Microsoft.Apr 22 08:33
blankthemuffinSo I take it you never use any non-free software ushimitsudoki?Apr 22 08:34
ushimitsudokiblankthemuffin: of course I do. i am not arguing that non-free software is immoral. again you are constructing a straw manApr 22 08:34
blankthemuffinWell you're saying microsoft is somehow worse than every other company which makes non-free software.Apr 22 08:35
blankthemuffinIt's a company, this is what companies do.Apr 22 08:35
blankthemuffinthey protect their own.Apr 22 08:36
ushimitsudokiNo it is not. Simply saying something is a company is not a justification. There are many companies that people object to. Brothels. Check-cashing places. Pawn shops. Gambling houses. Blackwater. and so on.Apr 22 08:36
ushimitsudokiPick whatever "vice" you dislike.Apr 22 08:36
blankthemuffinSure, but people still use them.Apr 22 08:36
ushimitsudokiAnd some people do not. Some people take action to try to convince others to see why they object.Apr 22 08:37
ushimitsudokiAnd others do not care. That is fine.Apr 22 08:37
blankthemuffinSure, there's nothing wrong with that. But this is a different matter.Apr 22 08:39
ushimitsudokiIs it? I thought it was the very matter at hand...what is the matter, then?Apr 22 08:40
blankthemuffinThe matter is not the company, although I don't see that they are as evil as you propose. But the interoperation between free software, and a product the so called evil company provides.Apr 22 08:40
*_spc_ ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 08:41
_spc_ban-evading is funApr 22 08:42
ushimitsudokiI have said time and time again, "interoperation" is only an issue because Microsoft does *not* want it. It is Microsoft that insists on its own proprietary and controlled standards, and only court order after court order has given any progressApr 22 08:42
_spc_one day i gonna automate itApr 22 08:42
ushimitsudokiIt is dishonest in the extreme for Microsoft apologists to act like "interoperability" is any real problem, rather than an issue *entirely* of Microsoft's own makingApr 22 08:42
_spc_it's rather m$ existence is an issueApr 22 08:43
blankthemuffinIt's not dishonest at all, it's true. Who cares who made the problem, it's there.Apr 22 08:43
blankthemuffinIt's obvious that it's not in microsofts interest to fix it to any great degree, but that's not to say that somebody else should not.Apr 22 08:43
ushimitsudokiI'm sorry, I don't follow where you are going with this. You asked about problems with Microsoft I thought? Now you are talking about "somebody else" fixing it?Apr 22 08:44
blankthemuffinIf you go back to the start, you might notice that I'm talking about mono.Apr 22 08:45
ushimitsudokiI'm sorry this is first message I saw from you: "why are you boycotting microsoft in the first place? I presume you don't actually release software as if it's not already apparent, they have by far the market share. By limiting interop with microsoft platforms, nobody will ever switch over. The real world doesn't care about something being truly open. Lets investigate a conventionally microsoft market. Games. Game DeApr 22 08:45
ushimitsudokiI don't see mono in this, but I would be glad to speak to that issue as well if you like.Apr 22 08:46
blankthemuffinthat was a single message, it continues.Apr 22 08:46
schestowitzblankthemuffin: software should work in all platformsApr 22 08:46
schestowitzIt was going toApr 22 08:46
schestowitzJava, OpenGL, etcApr 22 08:46
schestowitzMicrosoft actively worked to sabotage itApr 22 08:46
schestowitzAnd it took pride in this (see internal mail)Apr 22 08:46
schestowitzAs such, it should be approached with criminal chargesApr 22 08:47
schestowitzWhich it wasApr 22 08:47
*mib_c3tngl has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 08:47
schestowitzJudge Jackson urged to start a criminal trial/charges against the execsApr 22 08:47
ushimitsudokiAh I see. Are you proposing that mono is the only / the best / a really-really good xplatform dev tool?Apr 22 08:47
schestowitzBut.. as you may know, the tail wags the dog in the USApr 22 08:47
schestowitzMicrosoft laughs at the USDOJApr 22 08:47
schestowitzAnd then puts its people in itApr 22 08:47
ushimitsudokiSurely you realize most cross-platform games (to stick to your chosen example) do *not* use Mono?Apr 22 08:49
blankthemuffinSure, and there is shit all cross platform games ushimitsudoki.Apr 22 08:49
blankthemuffinIt's an area where the open source world needs to improve.Apr 22 08:49
ushimitsudokiYou think mono is a good answer then?Apr 22 08:50
blankthemuffinExactly schestowitz. But that's limited by Java being pretty shitty, OpenGL fucking around with standards, and microsoft making in the end, a better product ( how they got there aside ). It doesn't matter if microsoft made the problem, I'm pretty sure we can safely say they're not going to start developing cross platform apps. But it can be helped, by providing modern methods of cross platform development.Apr 22 08:50
ushimitsudokiIt does matter.Apr 22 08:50
blankthemuffinWell it might matter to those who worry about such things, but it doesn't matter from a commercial standpoint.Apr 22 08:51
ushimitsudokiYou don't get to crap on people for a decade and then turn around and ask for their support, even indirectly. People are rightfully wary of anything coming out of Microsoft related to Open Source.Apr 22 08:51
blankthemuffinSure, be wary, but by no means ignore it.Apr 22 08:51
ushimitsudokiAnd, considering how Microsoft treats its business partners in general, people are rightfully wary of relying too closely on Microsoft in general.Apr 22 08:51
blankthemuffinExploit what you can, everybody else does.Apr 22 08:52
ushimitsudokiI disagree, that is sociopathic. Not everyone thinks that making the most money possible is the goal of life.Apr 22 08:53
*mib_6ek7xv (i=9ea9830e@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 08:53
blankthemuffinI never said anything about making money.Apr 22 08:53
ushimitsudokiExploit it for what then if not money? What did you mean? Exploit it for charity and goodwill and human progress? I am sorry for the inference.Apr 22 08:54
blankthemuffinexploit for the benefit of your own ideals. In this example, the advancement of linux as a serious operating system in the modern world.Apr 22 08:55
ushimitsudokiLinux is a serious operating system already. Linux is second only to ITRON as the OS running the most machines on earth.Apr 22 08:56
blankthemuffinLet me say, serious desktop operating system then.Apr 22 08:57
ushimitsudokiAnd it will eventually take that market as well. The free-er the market, the faster Linux will take over. As things are now, it will take quite a long time I expect, but that's fine. Just because it's not #1 *right now*, doesn't mean it is a failure or necessarily even need to change anything at all. (Though I have my own ideas of what should change, of course)Apr 22 08:58
blankthemuffinSure, but it's not going to change if changing means dropping everything you used to have.Apr 22 08:59
ushimitsudokiIt doesn't mean that. Linux has become better for home users every year, don't you think? I know its hella better now that the first time I ever tried Slackware back in the early 90sApr 22 08:59
blankthemuffinSure, but it's still not very big, and adding more methods of interoperability means more people using it.Apr 22 09:00
ushimitsudokiHow is Linux's market share a failure considering the economic might (and convicted illegal) actions Microsoft has enjoyed as an advange for all the years. It's actually damn near a miracle Linux is a popular in the home as it isApr 22 09:00
ushimitsudokiIt's done quite well without "handouts" from Microsoft so far. I say stay the course and continue to improve as it has been doing. Incorporating Microsoft-brand technologies is always risky, and best left for the absolute necessitiesApr 22 09:02
ushimitsudokiand, despite some people's spin, mono is nowhere close to being a necessity (compared to something like FAT/NTFS support, for example)Apr 22 09:02
blankthemuffinI never said it was a failure, just it's not very big. And you're right, it is a damn near miracle, why not nurture the miracle, not just hope it continues to grow.Apr 22 09:02
ushimitsudokiYou are begging the question, assuming that supporting mono is nurturing. I assume that it is dangerous. I could be wrong, and if I see evidence to that, I will change my positionApr 22 09:03
blankthemuffinmono is not a necessity, but if you look at the stats on what's being used for application development, .NET is sky rocketing, why not grab a hold and go with it?Apr 22 09:03
blankthemuffinHow is it dangerous?Apr 22 09:04
schestowitzJust as journalists ignore the fact that Conficker is a Windows problem, they also conveniently ignore the identity of ACT: Microsoft Unleashes Its Paid Guns to Fight European Regulators 22 09:04
ushimitsudokibrb srryApr 22 09:05
blankthemuffinYou've thrown a curve ball there schestowitz, what does that have to do with this?Apr 22 09:05
ushimitsudokihe is just posting news linksApr 22 09:06
*tessier_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Apr 22 09:06
ushimitsudokiAlright here is an example of what I would consider "dangerous"Apr 22 09:07
ushimitsudoki1. The effort that goes into mono is a waste of resources, because mono will never be fully compatible nor up-to-date with "real .NET" from Microsoft. But, it allows an argument (on the face of things) that ".NET is Open Source / Cross Platform / MS reaching out to Linux / etc." and distracts people from developing or improving an actual open cross platform tool. (See: Parrot, Vala, and the like)Apr 22 09:08
ushimitsudoki2. Mono also lays groundwork for things like Moonlight which are much more restrictive and non-free. Yet if one "accepts" mono, it seems hard to not go on and accept Moonlight. Again, this is something we see playing out right now.Apr 22 09:09
blankthemuffin1) Mono improves on .NET in various manners. I think that just about covers it.Apr 22 09:09
ushimitsudokiNo. Mono has a few classes / objects that .NET does not have, and does not have some. that is not covered at all.Apr 22 09:10
ushimitsudokiSome are improvements, perhaps - but *any* difference at all *weakens* the crossplatform appeal, I should thinkApr 22 09:11
blankthemuffinMono implements most of .NET, including many of microsoft's non-standard APIs. Mono extends on .NET with various classes and technologies, citing: Mono.SIMD instructions, and Mono coroutines / threadletsApr 22 09:11
blankthemuffinIt doesn't *weaken* the cross platform appeal, mono works in windows too.Apr 22 09:12
ushimitsudokimost is not all. and "extensions" are the very things that cause the whole interoperability mess in the first placeApr 22 09:12
ushimitsudokiYou seriously think developers that just dropped $7K for MSDN are going to use Mono instead of .NET? I don't see that happeningApr 22 09:13
ushimitsudokiDevelopers on Windows are going to use Microsoft tools overwhelmingly. To think that mono will gain traction with Windows developers is unrealistic, I think.Apr 22 09:13
blankthemuffinno, but then again, it's folly to go after the big fish straight off. I propose that Mono will allow a more gradual transition, beginning with independent and small developers.Apr 22 09:14
blankthemuffin2) How, I've seen an awful lot of talk about how all these things are restrictive, non-free and about to be pulled out from under the free software world, but I've not seen anything by anybody with a. legal clout, or b. any kind of strong reasoning at all. I just see "such and such will happen", nothing backing it up.Apr 22 09:14
ushimitsudokiI agree that a gradual transition is possible, but it is so unlikely and unrealistic and I think it is not an honest argument. Instead I think it is *much* more likely that Windows developers will continue to use whatever tools and technology are on this month's MSDN discs and that's it.Apr 22 09:16
blankthemuffinAnd that's going to be different with your direction? The point is not so much to instantly allow interop between all applications, but to allow much simpler interop.Apr 22 09:17
ushimitsudokiin the case of 2. Moonlight specifically says that it is only legal when directly acquired from Novell and is NOT legal when aquired from non-Novell sources. I believe that mono has confused this issue because of all the "mono is ECMA and RAND-Z" noise fromApr 22 09:17
ushimitsudokiThat is what I mean by restrictive (I have intentionally *not* brought up the mono-has-patent-problems issue, because that horse is well-beaten)Apr 22 09:19
blankthemuffinI'm trying to bring it up, every one of the posts on your blog seems to say it, but I don't see any backed up evidence. Not to mention people like Mark Shuttleworth who I'm sure has plenty of experience and knowledge in the area seems to show it as not a non-issue, but something worth the risk.Apr 22 09:23
*ushimitsudoki1 ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 09:23
ushimitsudoki1srry network issues. I didn't see any response to: That is what I mean by restrictive (I have intentionally *not* brought up the mono-has-patent-problems issue, because that horse is well-beaten)Apr 22 09:24
blankthemuffinI'm trying to bring it up, every one of the posts on your blog seems to say it, but I don't see any backed up evidence. Not to mention people like Mark Shuttleworth who I'm sure has plenty of experience and knowledge in the area seems to show it as not a non-issue, but something worth the risk.Apr 22 09:24
ushimitsudoki1Not my blog, actually - it's schestowitz's - I'm of similar (but not exact) thinking on the matter. My bottom line on the patents is this: much of .NET is patented. some of C#/CLR is RAND-Z. I do not think that C#/CLR alone is a compelling sub-set of .NET. I think that to implement a compelling sub-set of .NET you must eventually hit other .NET patents.Apr 22 09:28
ushimitsudoki1the mono people never seem to want to discuss that point, though - they seem happy to imply (or outright state) that .NET as a whole is ECMA/RAND-Z. That is dishonest (or woefully uninformed)Apr 22 09:29
blankthemuffinBut what exactly is patented, and what is the implications if microsoft decides to attack. Both sides are saying this and that, but neither are actually backing it up.Apr 22 09:30
blankthemuffinAnd I suppose it depends what you mean by .NET, the .NET standard, or the stuff microsoft ships.Apr 22 09:31
ushimitsudoki1There are literally dozens of .NET patents easily found by searching the USPTO online. They specifically mention .NET and related components by name, often the exact class names. There is confusion over what exactly ".NET" means, and to be honest all sides are guilty of blurring the boundries.Apr 22 09:33
ushimitsudoki1The point I am making here is that it is ONLY C#/CLR that is ECMA/RAND-Z. But, mono is NOT JUST C#/CLR, indeed it can not be or it would be pointless. So, there are patent issues that are not addressed by brining up ECMA and so forth. I hope that is clear.Apr 22 09:34
MinceRgeekingsApr 22 09:35
blankthemuffinSure, I can see what you mean. But looking up patents would mean close to shit all to me. I'm no law student. Personally I'd think it interesting if somebody, who cares what side, would sit down and actually examine these patents, and show what particular parts are patented, and to what degree. At the moment both sides are saying the same thing and bending it their own way.Apr 22 09:36
schestowitzLatest cautionary lesson on OOXML: 22 09:36
ushimitsudoki1Fair enough, I am not a patent lawyer either. I do know that MS hold a ton of patents on ".NET stuff", but I couldn't offer a legal analysis. It would worry me if I were in the mono camp.Apr 22 09:37
blankthemuffinYeah, and from what I see it does. But not to warrant ignoring it.Apr 22 09:38
ushimitsudoki1Well, that's really an issue of risk managment isn't it? What one person considers acceptable risk is different from anotherApr 22 09:39
blankthemuffinYes, the only thing I see is no real public analysis of the risk.Apr 22 09:39
blankthemuffinAt the moment I'm really just interested as to what extent these patents could be a problem.Apr 22 09:40
blankthemuffinWith one side saying acceptable, and the other saying unacceptable, it's really not going anywhere without a detailed look into the problems.Apr 22 09:41
*ushimitsudoki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 22 09:41
blankthemuffinGranted that would probably be a lot of time / money gone.Apr 22 09:41
ushimitsudoki1For example, if I thought that mono would REALLY increase the desktop share of Linux I might accept a larger degree of risk. But I don't. I can see why someone would, I don't think it is a stupid assumption or anything, I just don't think mono will help, for a host of reasons (many of which we have already at least mentioned in passing)Apr 22 09:41
blankthemuffinHow can one hope to make such a decision without actually looking into the risk.Apr 22 09:42
blankthemuffinEverybody admits the risk, but nobody defines its extent.Apr 22 09:42
ushimitsudoki1What I mean is that putting aside the risks totally for a moment and just considering the mono project on pure technical merits, I don't think it is a winner. If I thought it was a fantastic project, then when the risk analysis came back in I would perhaps be a bit more accepting.Apr 22 09:44
*mib_tc8rfg (i=52a11a26@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 09:44
blankthemuffinWell considering I use it pretty much every day, I'd call it a winner.Apr 22 09:45
*mib_tc8rfg has quit (Client Quit)Apr 22 09:45
ushimitsudoki1And I don't use it at all. So I call it a loser. :)Apr 22 09:45
blankthemuffinBut have you used it?Apr 22 09:45
blankthemuffinI'm guessing that since you're on freenode you're a programmer? Have you used C#?Apr 22 09:46
ushimitsudoki1Yes. I used to develop for Windows. I have Petzold and everything still on my bookshelf.Apr 22 09:47
blankthemuffinAll my apps are cross platform, be it through Java, Mono, C++ with a bundle of work, or otherwise. Another method of this can not be a bad thing, risk aside.Apr 22 09:48
blankthemuffinEspecially considering the merits of mono as a system. Multi-Language, cross platform, fast. For mine I see C# as being much superior to Java and the other alternatives.Apr 22 09:49
ushimitsudoki1I have a personal application I re-write everytime I learn a new language. This means I know the logic pretty darn well and basically just need to learn the language. C# didn't come on as a "nice" language compared to something like, say, Python (putting aside speed issues and focusing on the language itself). I'm just saying that to point out that language choice is largely a personal preferenceApr 22 09:52
MinceRi see C++ and Python as being much superior to either.Apr 22 09:52
ushimitsudoki1I almost agree, but I don't honestly think any human being can actually understand everything about C++.Apr 22 09:53
MinceRone does not need to understand everything about it to be able to use it. :)Apr 22 09:53
ushimitsudoki1I have about 20 C++ books and seem to need a different one every 10 minutes when coding C++ :)Apr 22 09:53
*mib_b8vme0 (i=c2ed8e14@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 09:54
MinceRfor example you can use [SGI] STL containers and not worry much about the details of writing a template. :)Apr 22 09:54
MinceRand books help too, of course :)Apr 22 09:54
blankthemuffinC++ is useful, but by no means an ideal language.Apr 22 09:55
ushimitsudoki1Is any language "ideal"?Apr 22 09:55
blankthemuffinof course not, but C++ especially so.Apr 22 09:56
MinceRneither is C#Apr 22 09:56
blankthemuffinThere is no 'ideal' language.Apr 22 09:56
blankthemuffinThere is what's good for a given job.Apr 22 09:56
blankthemuffinBut c++ from a technical standpoint is less than ideal. Lack of interop with other languages, dodgy error handling, especially with templates. Compiler incompatibilities. come to mind.Apr 22 09:57
MinceRfor example, if the job is to expose yourself and your customers to lawsuits from m$, C# is good for that ;)Apr 22 09:57
blankthemuffinheh, once again we go back to the point of, well sure there's risk, but since nobody has defined it it's a moot point.Apr 22 09:57
ushimitsudoki1I don't want to get back into it, but just because something is not defined does not mean it is moot. Could be very much the opposite, in factApr 22 09:58
blankthemuffinanyway this is going in circles, and I guess it's pretty obvious what the rest of the world thinks. Especially considering this channel has 30 people including a bundle of un-named mibbit connections, and #mono has 173 users.Apr 22 10:01
blankthemuffinso I'm outApr 22 10:01
*blankthemuffin (n=josh@ has left #boycottnovell ("Leaving")Apr 22 10:01
ushimitsudoki1Hooray! Appeal to popularity! Logical fallacy wins the dayApr 22 10:01
MinceRi'm sure TomTom would say it's a moot point tooApr 22 10:01
MinceRwell, poor idiot ran out of argumentsApr 22 10:02
ushimitsudoki1He was better than most, though.Apr 22 10:02
oiaohm_JIT that mono uses gets on my bad side.Apr 22 10:03
oiaohm_JIT and linux memory mangement really don't work.Apr 22 10:04
MinceRwhy?Apr 22 10:04
oiaohm_Linux when it loads a native program it only maps it into memory.Apr 22 10:04
oiaohm_So it can free the complete program from memory and never need to send it to swap.Apr 22 10:04
MinceRand i suppose that won't work with JITApr 22 10:05
oiaohm_When the application is required just load it back from the file.Apr 22 10:05
MinceRthus keeping the whole thing in memory?Apr 22 10:05
*mib_a7hjs2 (i=3e8ff609@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 10:05
oiaohm_Yep.Apr 22 10:05
MinceRcan you mmap into executable pages?Apr 22 10:05
oiaohm_JIT creates the executable in memory.Apr 22 10:05
*mib_a7hjs2 has quit (Client Quit)Apr 22 10:05
MinceRit could back it with a fileApr 22 10:05
oiaohm_Worse it does it per user.Apr 22 10:05
MinceRafter all you'd want to save the results of optimization eventuallyApr 22 10:06
MinceRwouldn't you?Apr 22 10:06
oiaohm_AOT allows what you are talking about.Apr 22 10:06
oiaohm_do it once do it right basically.Apr 22 10:06
MinceRi know, but it seems wasteful to collect data in runtime, do optimization on it and then throw it away when the process endsApr 22 10:06
MinceRthen you could improve the executable image with each execution.Apr 22 10:07
oiaohm_You can do process optimisation on native binarys by runtime monitoring.Apr 22 10:07
oiaohm_There is no reason at all to be using JIT.Apr 22 10:07
MinceRmaybe that would be better than JITApr 22 10:07
MinceRjust collect data and improve the binary when the system is idle.Apr 22 10:07
oiaohm_Problem with JIT it makes space on disk look smaller.Apr 22 10:08
oiaohm_When ram usage is heavier.Apr 22 10:08
MinceRanyway, this issue seems to be an issue with the idea of JIT, not linux memory managementApr 22 10:08
oiaohm_You have to remember out of ram system stops.Apr 22 10:08
oiaohm_Ram is highly valueable.Apr 22 10:08
oiaohm_Lot of programmers have forgot that.Apr 22 10:09
MinceRi don't quite understand how JIT makes disk space look smallerApr 22 10:09
oiaohm_bytecode could be classed as a compressed exe.Apr 22 10:09
oiaohm_JIT can also give the effect of less ram usage because the completely program is not built.Apr 22 10:10
MinceRthat would be a good thingApr 22 10:10
oiaohm_The problem is what ever is built of the program is not releasable from memory.  It has to be sent to swap.Apr 22 10:10
MinceRthat's what my mmap idea could fix, if it's possibleApr 22 10:10
oiaohm_Normal native problem.  You can just release the memory reuse it.Apr 22 10:10
MinceRit could be saved back to disk at any time and if it's saved it can be dropped from memory and reloaded laterApr 22 10:11
oiaohm_mmap with generation on fly don't work with application secuirty well.Apr 22 10:11
MinceRindeedApr 22 10:11
oiaohm_There is no real way to fix JIT.Apr 22 10:11
MinceRyou'd probably have to keep separate images for each process instance anywayApr 22 10:11
oiaohm_Other than not use it.Apr 22 10:11
MinceRor the JIT has to be some sort of central process that knows about each instanceApr 22 10:11
oiaohm_AOT with runtime monitoring doing optmisation can equal everything JIT can do.Apr 22 10:12
MinceR(so it won't overwrite its own stuff when one of the instances is updated)Apr 22 10:12
*tessier_ (n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines) has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 10:12
oiaohm_Big thing once the AOT is perfectly optmised you can give up the runtime monitering.Apr 22 10:12
MinceRicApr 22 10:12
oiaohm_JIT seamed like a good idea.Apr 22 10:12
oiaohm_Once you try to make it work AOT starts looking great.Apr 22 10:13
oiaohm_AOT is basicaly turn .net into just another complier.Apr 22 10:13
oiaohm_No different to C C++ Objc ....Apr 22 10:14
MinceRand turning .net into a compiler could avoid m$'s patents on it, if i understand the patent issue correctly.Apr 22 10:14
oiaohm_Yep.Apr 22 10:14
oiaohm_Complete allow users to keep on using .net yet not be dependant on patents.Apr 22 10:14
oiaohm_This is the ideal outcome.Apr 22 10:15
oiaohm_Performance, memory usage AOT with runtime monitoring wins.Apr 22 10:15
oiaohm_Diskusage little bit heavier.Apr 22 10:15
oiaohm_Disk space is fairly cheep.Apr 22 10:16
oiaohm_Remember being able to skip those writes to swap when out of memory do add up big time.Apr 22 10:16
oiaohm_Also would allow .net engine developers to be embraced by the normal complier developers.Apr 22 10:19
oiaohm_I cannot see any losses really by giving up JIT for good MinceRApr 22 10:19
MinceRwell, this AOT approach seems to have the disadvantage of only being able to apply the improvements when that process is stoppedApr 22 10:20
MinceRwhile JIT can probably do so in runtimeApr 22 10:20
MinceRwhich might matter if you keep something running continuously for a long timeApr 22 10:20
oiaohm_You can alter a native executable in memory.Apr 22 10:20
MinceRthen again, i could be wrong about itApr 22 10:20
oiaohm_ksplice does it with the Linux kernel.Apr 22 10:20
MinceRafter all there's little issue with replacing a readonly pageApr 22 10:20
oiaohm_While its running.Apr 22 10:20
MinceRindeedApr 22 10:21
MinceRat least as long as you don't optimize the data structures, but i guess no JIT does that either.Apr 22 10:21
oiaohm_Ksplice is able to cope with that.Apr 22 10:21
MinceRafaik ksplice doesn't work if structures were changed.Apr 22 10:22
oiaohm_Prototype can.Apr 22 10:22
oiaohm_Its highly messy.Apr 22 10:22
MinceRoh.Apr 22 10:22
MinceR:DApr 22 10:22
MinceRi'd expect it to be messyApr 22 10:22
MinceRwell, the stack could be messy anyway, after all the addresses of parts of code in the executable could changeApr 22 10:23
oiaohm_Remember machine code is just another bytecode.Apr 22 10:23
MinceR(and updating eip, of course)Apr 22 10:23
oiaohm_That is what makes JIT so stupid.Apr 22 10:23
oiaohm_You are running 2 bytecodes.Apr 22 10:23
oiaohm_Why in heck do you need 2.Apr 22 10:24
MinceRone could say that the reason is that you know very well what one of those means semantically, but i'm not sure if that's true.Apr 22 10:25
oiaohm_Its simply not wanting to touch asm.Apr 22 10:26
oiaohm_That is all.Apr 22 10:26
MinceR:)Apr 22 10:28
MinceRanother reason might be an architecture-independent obfuscated code you can compile into native code.Apr 22 10:29
MinceR(after all, if you don't want/need to obfuscate the code, you might as well compile from source.)Apr 22 10:29
oiaohm_That is not a reason to kept JIT.Apr 22 10:31
oiaohm_JIT is always sold in the idea that JIT can out optmise normal compliers.Apr 22 10:31
MinceRindeedApr 22 10:31
oiaohm_Correct it can.   But out optmising something that is profiling the native code.Apr 22 10:32
oiaohm_And rebuilding the native.Apr 22 10:32
oiaohm_No way JIT can do that.Apr 22 10:32
oiaohm_Every swap to disk kills JIT.Apr 22 10:33
oiaohm_Funny enough MSVC and Pgroup complier have runtime profiling.Apr 22 10:36
oiaohm_Everyone basically benches JIT agaisnt GCC that is useless at optmising to max.Apr 22 10:36
*ushimitsudoki (n=ushimits@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 10:36
MinceRand what about ICC?Apr 22 10:37
MinceR(if that's what the intel compiler is called)Apr 22 10:37
oiaohm_Last time I looked at ICC it did not.Apr 22 10:38
*ushimitsudoki1 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Apr 22 10:39
oiaohm_I guess you are now like me the more you think about JIT more questions why come to mind.Apr 22 10:39
MinceRwell, now i don't think that JIT will inevitably take over everything and make everything faster. :)Apr 22 10:40
oiaohm_  You could run every C program on you system JIT.Apr 22 10:41
oiaohm_Yet anyone who is dumb enough to try finds out that memory disappears fast.Apr 22 10:41
oiaohm_Yes I was dumb enough at one point.Apr 22 10:42
MinceRone could say that JIT isn't mature yetApr 22 10:42
MinceRjust like microkernels aren't mature yet, eitherApr 22 10:42
oiaohm_JIT to work will need a different OS kernel.Apr 22 10:42
oiaohm_You must be able to release as many blocks as able.Apr 22 10:42
oiaohm_AOT is what the Linux kernel prefers.Apr 22 10:43
schestowitzPeople talk about Oracle's use of Sun products, but what about patents? 22 10:43
oiaohm_Same with most other OS's in existance.Apr 22 10:43
MinceRbbl, lunchApr 22 10:43
oiaohm_schestowitz: its not the time to attack MS.Apr 22 10:46
oiaohm_MS needs to get weaker yet.Apr 22 10:47
schestowitzwhat do you mean?Apr 22 10:51
schestowitzNot the time to attack?Apr 22 10:51
oiaohm_MS still has the funds to defend itself.Apr 22 10:51
schestowitzIt's not attacks, either. Attacks are pre-emptive. This is just coverage of what they do.Apr 22 10:51
schestowitzbashing it attacking. Like, "Zune sucks! Don't buy Zune." Apr 22 10:52
schestowitz"Microsoft poisons a Europe panel" is not bashingApr 22 10:52
schestowitzoiaohm_: it doesn't matterApr 22 10:52
oiaohm_Oracle normal hits when it can destory.Apr 22 10:52
schestowitzThose who look for answers (beyond Microsoft PR) will have it out thereApr 22 10:52
oiaohm_Oracle is a lot nasiter company than SUN.Apr 22 10:53
oiaohm_Just Oracle is friendly to opensource.Apr 22 10:53
oiaohm_MS shills I can bet will be order to make out Oracle as evil as they can.Apr 22 10:53
oiaohm_Oracle has always been a company that bows to no one.   Any company to try will regret it.Apr 22 10:54
oiaohm_Most stupid thing MS could try its appling fat patents against Oracle.Apr 22 10:55
schestowitzit has oinApr 22 10:59
oiaohm_Software patents are a threat to Oracle.Apr 22 11:00
oiaohm_Oracle does have software patents the scary thing for companies like Microsoft.  Oracle has no patent licence agreements with anyone.Apr 22 11:00
schestowitzI want to see how Oracle participates in FOSS nowApr 22 11:00
oiaohm_Its play chicken.Apr 22 11:00
schestowitzIt would be odd to see Oarcle employees advocating ODF all over the placeApr 22 11:01
oiaohm_Oracle has participated for a long time.Apr 22 11:01
schestowitzoiaohm_: Linux mostlyApr 22 11:01
schestowitzNot FOSS at large. HardlyApr 22 11:01
oiaohm_Most package management systems depend on berkley db.Apr 22 11:02
oiaohm_Oracle has stuck to what they control.Apr 22 11:02
schestowitzGoogle splits with Mozilla on 3D interwebs < Google splits with Mozilla on 3D interwebs >Apr 22 11:02
schestowitzOracle's Dr DBA speaks of peace with mysqlApr 22 11:02
schestowitz 22 11:03
schestowitzFrom Mysql employee BTWApr 22 11:03
schestowitzZack UrlockerApr 22 11:03
oiaohm_Exactly what I am expecting.Apr 22 11:04
oiaohm_Oracle will be happy with over 90 percent control of the database market.Apr 22 11:04
schestowitzGavin Clarke is flogging the next vapourwareApr 22 11:04
schestowitz"Windows 8"Apr 22 11:04
oiaohm_Of course MS will not be happy.Apr 22 11:05
schestowitzThe Microsoft shills realise that Vista7 is rejected by eneterprises, as shown in surveysApr 22 11:05
schestowitzSo they move on to vapourware after the vapourwareApr 22 11:05
oiaohm_I expect Oracle to bend the marketing.Apr 22 11:05
schestowitzMaybe.Apr 22 11:05
oiaohm_Ie Oracle the biggest supplier of databases in the world you can depend on us.Apr 22 11:05
oiaohm_Yes there are a lot of upsides to Oracle keeping mysql.Apr 22 11:06
oiaohm_They have counted berkley db numbers before.Apr 22 11:06
*mib_ey0o48 has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 11:07
*mib_ey0o48 (i=54c30a28@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 11:08
oiaohm_Oracle always has been for standards.Apr 22 11:08
oiaohm_So Oracle publically backing ODF would not be out side there normal operations.Apr 22 11:08
oiaohm_Oracle Sun merge basically threatens MS with a well funded active eneny.Apr 22 11:11
oiaohm_  Have you forgot schestowitz that Oracle is a member of the ODF allianceApr 22 11:13
oiaohm_Oracle has been a very media quite company.Apr 22 11:13
schestowitzI was just preparing a post about Vista 7Apr 22 11:18
oiaohm_That is the other thing I forget one of the major backend of mysql has had Oracle maintainership.Apr 22 11:18
schestowitzOracle defended ODF beforeApr 22 11:19
schestowitzJust not as vigorously as some other companiesApr 22 11:19
schestowitzOracle did this as much as GoogleApr 22 11:19
oiaohm_So Oracle staff and mysql staff have always been talking to each other.Apr 22 11:19
oiaohm_The merge now allows them all in 1 room.Apr 22 11:20
oiaohm_Oracle is a lot like google.Apr 22 11:21
oiaohm_Both very big companies both with major control of there markets.Apr 22 11:21
oiaohm_Both not wantting to draw too much attention.Apr 22 11:21
schestowitz"Forget about Vista 7" is the message Microsoft is now sending: 22 11:23
schestowitzWell, if oracle is synonymous with Enetrprise DBs, then publicity is not needed.Apr 22 11:24
schestowitzWow. 74,757  engineersApr 22 11:25
schestowitzThat's a LOTApr 22 11:25
schestowitzGoogle in comparison is about 20k IIRCApr 22 11:25
schestowitzSo Oracle is very heavyweight for its market capApr 22 11:25
oiaohm_Oracle does a lot.Apr 22 11:25
schestowitzYes, Google now has "20,164" employeeApr 22 11:25
oiaohm_Oracle does not brage about it.Apr 22 11:26
schestowitz 22 11:26
oiaohm_Lot of projects get code from Oracle staff.Apr 22 11:26
schestowitzSAP has 51,447  employeesApr 22 11:26
schestowitzBut IBM is the HUGE oneApr 22 11:27
schestowitzBig Blue... and not worth so much as a companyApr 22 11:27
schestowitzMicrosoft is imploding fast because its software loses valueApr 22 11:27
schestowitzXP=$5Apr 22 11:27
schestowitzMSFT is over-valuedApr 22 11:27
schestowitzWait until Thurs. resultsApr 22 11:27
oiaohm_SAP and Oracle work on join projects.Apr 22 11:31
oiaohm_Since 2005 Oracle has been on a company aquirement bingeApr 22 11:32
schestowitzoiaohm_: maybe you can hekpApr 22 11:32
schestowitzSomething funny is happeningApr 22 11:32
schestowitzThunderbird opens pages almost instantlyApr 22 11:33
schestowitzSame pages in Firefox are loading up very slowlyApr 22 11:33
schestowitzWhat to look at and check..?Apr 22 11:33
oiaohm_Thunderbird has javascript disabled.Apr 22 11:33
schestowitzYesApr 22 11:33
oiaohm_Disable firefox javascript.Apr 22 11:33
oiaohm_It can slow down some page loading.Apr 22 11:34
schestowitzIt's already disable for these sitesApr 22 11:35
schestowitzNoscriptApr 22 11:35
schestowitzYahoo Posts Bad Numbers, Still Skates By < >;  Down 78%   Apr 22 11:36
schestowitzMicrosoft is just shuffling brands... Throwing Another Log Onto the Brand Fire < http://www.webpron... >Apr 22 11:36
oiaohm_Relsys 02009-03-23 March 23, 2009 Drug safety and risk management solutions with advanced analytics for the health sciences industry << another oracle aquirement.Apr 22 11:36
oiaohm_Oracle has been aquiring about 8 companies a year.Apr 22 11:36
schestowitzYes, some anticompetitivelyApr 22 11:37
MinceRreApr 22 11:37
oiaohm_That is where Oracle growing staff is coming form.Apr 22 11:38
oiaohm_Each aquired company has become a department.Apr 22 11:38
oiaohm_  Compare to MS.Apr 22 11:42
schestowitzPart of Oracle's DB s/w has just been released as GPL(v2), so maybe there's hope: 22 11:43
schestowitzoiaohm_: Microsoft buys and eliminatesApr 22 11:43
schestowitzMaybe Oracle too. We shall see.Apr 22 11:43
schestowitzBuy to buryApr 22 11:43
schestowitzEncarta, Ensemble...Apr 22 11:44
schestowitzXenApr 22 11:44
oiaohm_Oracle has not eliminatedApr 22 11:44
oiaohm_In 2000 Oracle gained attention from the computer industry and the press after hiring private investigators to dig through the trash of organizations involved in a antitrust trial involving Microsoft.[27] <<  But never underestermate them.Apr 22 11:45
oiaohm_Ellison said: "We will ship our garbage to Redmond, and they can go through it. We believe in full disclosure." << Also boss of Oracle is warped.Apr 22 11:46
*mib_7ewxns has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 11:49
*mib_s74mf3 (i=c13ecbd6@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 11:51
*mib_s74mf3 has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 12:04
schestowitzMicrosoft is now doing PR nonsense in AUApr 22 12:17
schestowitz 22 12:17
schestowitzMicrosoft's strategy: commit crimes, then toss some money to turn people to Microsoft's slaves and pretend its charitable.Apr 22 12:17
schestowitzYet Another Journalism Professor Gets Nearly Every Fact Wrong In Saying Google Needs To Pay < >Apr 22 12:21
schestowitzChinese Search Engine Baidu: 70% of revenues will come from foreign markets within the next 15 years < >Apr 22 12:23
schestowitzThe US is still wasting money on weapons inc. nukes  "Computer spies have broken into the Pentagon's $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project -- the Defense Department's costliest weapons program ever -- according to current and former government officials familiar with the attacks." 22 12:26
*magentar (n=magentar@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 12:27
schestowitzThe cover-up after abuse by UK police continues: 22 12:28
schestowitzDeeper privacy intrusion  from Google? 22 12:30
schestowitzRavi passes around Mono poison: 22 12:33
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Apr 22 12:35
schestowitzZDNet is giving a  platform for pro-Microsoft spinner Jason Hiner now :-( It figures.Apr 22 12:46
*mib_b68jbw has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 12:52
*zer0c00l (n=zer0c00l@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 12:55
schestowitzvia Groklaw: "Carla Bruni Loves it When People Pirate Her Songs - It Generates Interest" < >Apr 22 12:56
schestowitzGroklaw links to the Hines BS. HA!Apr 22 12:58
schestowitz"In a brief letter about the deal, Oracle President Charles Phillips talks about the benefit of Oracle owning Java and Solaris, without a word about MySQL. Not the reassurance corporate MySQL users might be seeking." 22 12:59
schestowitz"If I have anything to say about it, JRuby will remain 100% a community project, or I won't be at Oracle long." 22 13:00
schestowitz"Michael 'Monty' Widenius left Sun and started his own community branch of MySQL, MariaDB." 22 13:02
schestowitzWho is Maria? His g/f?Apr 22 13:02
schestowitz"Like it or not, we're in wait-and-see mode." -  Tim Bray, Sun 22 13:03
schestowitzForbes: Why Oracle Won't Kill MySQL < >Apr 22 13:04
schestowitzGoogle succeeds because it gives people what they want, not because it 'steals': 22 13:06
schestowitzPhilips has 121,398 employees. Probably the biggest pro-sw pats lobbyist...Apr 22 13:14
schestowitzFujitsu cuts contractor pay < >Apr 22 13:16
schestowitzJoseph Stiglitz: "The Big Banks aren't too big to fail. They are too big to manage."Apr 22 13:16
schestowitzOracle might sack about 10,000  (about 8% of workforce) soon: 22 13:21
schestowitzMore like 13% actuallyApr 22 13:21
oiaohm_10,000 would be mostly removing duplication.Apr 22 13:27
oiaohm_Add sun + oracle work force you have duplication lot of.Apr 22 13:28
*mib_b68jbw (i=7664ba34@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 13:33
schestowitzThere're suggestion that FLOSS -- not just Linux -- is FAR more deployed than publicly reportedApr 22 13:33
schestowitzI wonder just how much Oracle uses it except for as a platform.Apr 22 13:34
schestowitzI heard that SAP uses ODF internallyApr 22 13:34
schestowitzThe OOo guy who moved there (Dancer/Erwin) showed itApr 22 13:34
oiaohm_That is partly working with OracleApr 22 13:35
oiaohm_Oracle prefers standards.Apr 22 13:35
oiaohm_Less problems in future of course.Apr 22 13:36
schestowitzMicrosoft Bribes Russian to Take Schools Off GNU/Linux and Halt Antitrust Action? < >Apr 22 13:37
oiaohm_How long before MS wakes up.Apr 22 13:40
schestowitzoiaohm_: Aussies, Kiwis enter Google Summer of Code < >Apr 22 13:43
schestowitzWake up to what?Apr 22 13:43
oiaohm_MS is still spending like they are rich.Apr 22 13:44
schestowitz"Mark_Antony I think the FOSS 'Activity Map' understates the 'Industry' activity in UK - there are way more big companies moving than go public about it! [...] Mark_Antony I suspect the research is quite Red Hat centric and underestimates what's happening with Debian (and Ubuntu) which we use all the time..."Apr 22 13:48
*trmanco ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 13:48
schestowitzRe: 22 13:48
schestowitzoiaohm_: Microsoft is dumpingApr 22 13:48
schestowitzThere's a differenceApr 22 13:49
schestowitzThey make not a buck if Linux gainsApr 22 13:49
schestowitzSo they try to just throw away their software that costs nothing to copyApr 22 13:49
schestowitzBut they DEVALUE their products this wayApr 22 13:49
schestowitzVery badApr 22 13:49
schestowitz"Mark_Antony I suspect our rise in the 'Activity Map' in Government has been mainly helped by the Education moves by Becta, OGC, Jim Knight and so on."Apr 22 13:49
schestowitz 22 13:50
MinceR 22 13:53
MinceRlenovo is advertising for m$, apparentlyApr 22 13:53
schestowitzLENOVO IS mcirosoftApr 22 13:54
schestowitzEmployees thereApr 22 13:54
schestowitzThis is Why Lenovo Sucks at Linux < >Apr 22 13:54
mib_6ek7xv mib_b68jbw mib_b8vme0 mib_cf3kln mib_ey0o48 mib_iruc5g mib_nhm138 mib_tggylu mib_vfvtjy MinceR Apr 22 13:56
schestowitzMinceR: I will do three quick posts aboout these issuesApr 22 13:56
oiaohm_  Nice topic.  Not what MS wants to hear.Apr 22 13:58
*Ap0G33 (i=c910e07d@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 13:58
schestowitzoiaohm_: I don't like the writerApr 22 13:59
schestowitzI have some kick-arse posts to make. Microsoft is really getting nasty now and it ought to be exposed Apr 22 14:00
schestowitzThis will be FUN!!11Apr 22 14:01
schestowitzMicrosoft has recently been proxifying its smears against Linux. People fail to see the connections.Apr 22 14:02
oiaohm_schestowitz: I know you don't like the writer.Apr 22 14:02
oiaohm_But the writer says basically there is nothing MS can do about Open source.Apr 22 14:02
oiaohm_This is MS problem its game over.  All they can do is slow the drop.Apr 22 14:03
schestowitzoiaohm_: yes, I knowApr 22 14:05
schestowitzThey could sell hardwareApr 22 14:05
schestowitzThey tried and failedApr 22 14:05
schestowitzWhere apply succeeded (they have no dependence on OEM faith and they have i[product])Apr 22 14:05
schestowitzApple's business does not rely on OEMing (letting THEM sell h/w) and the iPhone/iPod biz makes cashApr 22 14:06
*mib_kjg6ts (i=c0a314e8@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 14:06
oiaohm_  My most liked css decoder source code.Apr 22 14:07
MinceRniceApr 22 14:16
oiaohm_One day I am going to put it on a cap.Apr 22 14:18
MinceRseems to be missing the key thoughApr 22 14:20
schestowitzWill Tomorrow’s Ubuntu Release be Overshadowed by News of Microsoft Layoffs? < >Apr 22 14:20
schestowitzoiaohm_: nice!Apr 22 14:21
schestowitzVisuals over readabilityApr 22 14:21
oiaohm_No key MinceR its a css cracker.Apr 22 14:21
MinceRit says "cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob"Apr 22 14:22
MinceRisn't that a css key?Apr 22 14:22
MinceRthen again, i'm no content scrambling system expert.Apr 22 14:22
oiaohm_That right that the processor.Apr 22 14:23
*mib_cf3kln has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Apr 22 14:23
MinceRi don't understand.Apr 22 14:23
oiaohm_The other half has to be on shirt too big for cap.Apr 22 14:24
oiaohm_They keys.Apr 22 14:24
oiaohm_the keys.Apr 22 14:24
MinceRicApr 22 14:24
oiaohm_I get it once lag from large ish download stops.Apr 22 14:25
trmancowowApr 22 14:26
trmancoSpanish people read my blogApr 22 14:26
oiaohm_   The other half.Apr 22 14:28
oiaohm_Who said code read ablity was important.Apr 22 14:29
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 14:40
schestowitzoiaohm_: not in this caseApr 22 14:41
schestowitzAny change breaks compatibilityApr 22 14:41
*magentar (n=magentar@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 14:43
schestowitzI provide content to Microsoft's latest attack on Linux in Russia: 22 14:47
trmancoBotnet of 1.9 million infected PCs found: 22 15:04
schestowitz"having a field day over this" Any idiom like this?Apr 22 15:05
schestowitztrmanco: there's moreApr 22 15:05
schestowitzIt's just some stupid pro-swpats firmApr 22 15:05
schestowitzIIRC FinjanApr 22 15:05
schestowitzBunch of self-0serving clownsApr 22 15:05
trmancotime for Microsoft to get â™»Apr 22 15:05
schestowitzBut they claim governments are affected tooApr 22 15:05
trmancoheApr 22 15:06
schestowitzFinjan are related to MS ASAIKApr 22 15:06
schestowitzThey also give small numbersApr 22 15:06
schestowitzThe real numbers are FAR biggerApr 22 15:06
trmancoyeah, but still, they numbers are massiveApr 22 15:15
oiaohm_It would be interesting if all network filters got turned off.Apr 22 15:16
*oiaohm_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Apr 22 15:18
trmancoFirefox 3.0.9 targets 12 security vulnerabilities: ?Apr 22 15:27
trmancohow come I only count 9? -> 22 15:28
trmancoand only 1 was critical, not 4Apr 22 15:29
schestowitzLenovo is hostile towards Linux and Microsoft employees in it might be the cause: 22 15:29
schestowitztrmanco: I read about 9Apr 22 15:30
schestowitzMaybe 9 patches for 12 holes?Apr 22 15:30
trmanconoApr 22 15:30
schestowitzCNET...?Apr 22 15:30
trmancothose 9 are security advisoriesApr 22 15:30
trmancoyesApr 22 15:30
trmancoeach advisory is a hole AFAIKApr 22 15:30
schestowitz"Steven Musii" That's a new one to meApr 22 15:31
schestowitz"Before joining CNET News in 2000, Steven spent 10 years at various Bay Area newspapers. E-mail Steven. "Apr 22 15:31

Recent Techrights' Posts

1901 Days in High-Security Prison (and 8 More Years in Severe Confinement) for the 'Crime' of Exposing War Crimes and Corruption
Julian Assange clip = Microsoft Lobbying (Openwashing)
Here's the latest pair of blog posts
In Northern Mariana Islands, Where Julian Assange Pled Guilty 4 Weeks Ago, Windows Remains Second to Android, and GNU/Linux Still Grows in Oceania
It was the first month ever that statCounter saw more Web requests there from Android than from Windows
Good News About GNU/Linux, Geminispace, FSF, and Backlash Against Microsoft
here are a few quick takes
Backlash and Negative Press After Microsoft Tells Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) People to DIE
Follow-up stories
UEFI 'Secure Boot' Once Again Bricking PCs and Fake Security Models Are Perishing in Geminispace
Let's Encrypt has just fallen again
Red Hat's Official Site Yesterday: Promoting 'Secure' Boot in Machines You Don't Own or Control Anyway
"To be clear, CentOS Linux no longer exist"
[Meme] Conservative (and Fake) Nuclear Physicist Bill Gates
Didn't even graduate from college, media treats him like a world-renowned expert in nuclear energy
The Gemini Capsule of Tux Machines Turns 2 in Six Days
Many people actually use Gemini, some participate in it by creating their own capsule (or capsules)
GNU/Linux Rises to 4% in Saudi Arabia, Says statCounter, Windows Has Fallen to 11% (Android Exceeds 60%)
Microsoft might soon fall below 10% in KSA (Saudi Arabia)
IRC Proceedings: Thursday, July 18, 2024
IRC logs for Thursday, July 18, 2024
GNU/Linux news for the past day
GNU/Linux news for the past day
If GitLab Gets Sold (Datadog and Google Named Among Potential Buyers), It'll Prove Our Point About GitLab
Beware the bait on the hook
Hot Summer: Microsoft Flirting With the "5% Windows" Club in Afghanistan
The share of Windows in Afghanistan has fallen to almost 5% (1 in 20 Web requests)
[Meme] Nothing Says "Independence Day" Like...
Firing DEI on Independence Day period
Links 18/07/2024: Hardware, Conflicts, and Gemini Leftovers
Links for the day
Links 18/07/2024: Retroactively Pseudonymised Litigant and Alberta’s Energy ‘War Room’
Links for the day
Gemini Links 18/07/2024: A Welcome to Gemini and Politics of Assassinations
Links for the day
Fabian Gruenbichler & Debian: former GSoC student added to keyring
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Links 18/07/2024: ORG Complaint to ICO About Facebook, Korean Double Agent Unmasked
Links for the day
Joel Espy Klecker & Debian on Joe Biden's health and Donald Trump's assassination
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, July 17, 2024
IRC logs for Wednesday, July 17, 2024
Links 18/07/2024: Hostname Pedantry and Retro Coding
Links for the day
Fedora Week of Diversity (FWD) 2024 Attracting 0.01% of the IBM Staff "Was a Success"
They expect volunteers (unpaid slaves) to do the PR for them...
African's Largest Population (Nigeria) Approaching 80% Android "Market Share" Amid Steady Monthly Increases While Microsoft Has Mass Layoffs in Nigeria
Microsoft- and Apple-sponsored Western (or English-speaking) media chooses to ignore that or treat it as irrelevant (a racist disposition in its own right)
[Meme] The Warlord's Catspaw
Thugs that troll us
Microsoft Misogyny Will be the Fall of Microsoft (Covering Up for Misogynists is a Huge Mistake and Highly Misguided Short-term Strategy)
Microsoft's undoing may in fact be its attitude towards women
Microsoft's Bing Falls to Fourth in the Europe/Asia-Based Turkey, Share Halved Since LLM Hype, Now Only 1% (Sometimes Less)
Turkey (Eurasia) is another example of Microsoft failing with LLM hype and just burning a lot of energy in vain (investment without returns)
Red Hat Keeps Behaving Like a Microsoft Reseller (for Proprietary Stuff!), Microsoft Employees as Authors in
In some ways this reminds us of Novell
Links 17/07/2024: New Attacks on the Press, European Patents Squashed Even at Kangaroo Court (UPC)
Links for the day
Gemini Links 17/07/2024: Proponents of Censorship and New Arrivals at Gemini
Links for the day
Links 17/07/2024: School Budget Meltdown and Modern Cars as Tracking Nightmares
Links for the day
This Should Certainly be Illegal, But the Person Who Helped Microsoft Do This is Still Attacking the Critics of It
perhaps time for an "I told you so post"
Censorship as Signal of Opportunity for Reform
It remains sad and ironic that Wikileaks outsourced so much of its official communications to Twitter (now X)
[Meme] A Computer With an Extra Key on the Keyboard Isn't Everyone's Priority
(so your telling me meme)
The World Wide Web Has Been Rotting for Years (Quality, Accuracy, and Depth Consistently Decreasing)
In the past people said that the Web had both "good" and "bad" and that the good outweighed the bad
Comoros: Windows Plunges to Record Low of About 6% in Country of a Million People (in 2010 Windows Was 100%)
Many of these people earn a few dollars a day; they don't care for Microsoft's "Hey Hi PC" hype
Africa as an Important Reminder That Eradicating Microsoft Doesn't Go Far Enough
Ideally, if our top goal is bigger than "get rid of Microsoft", we need to teach people to choose and use devices that obey them, not GAFAM
Billions of Computers Run Linux and Many Use Debian (or a Derivative of It)
many devices never get updated or even communicate with the Net, so exhaustive tallies are infeasible
The Mail (MX) Server Survey for July 2024 Shows Microsoft Collapsing to Only 689 Servers or 0.17% of the Whole (It Used to be About 25%)
Microsoft became so insignificant and the most astounding thing is how the media deliberate ignores it or refuses to cover it
[Meme] Microsoft is Firing
Don't worry, Microsoft will have some new vapourware coming soon
More DEI (or Similar) Layoffs on the Way, According to Microsoft Team Leader
What happened shortly before Independence Day wasn't the end of it, apparently
Windows Down From 98.5% to 22.9% in Hungary
Android is up because more people buy smaller mobile devices than laptops
Microsoft Windows in Algeria: From 100% to Less Than 15%
Notice that not too long ago Windows was measured at 100%. Now? Not even 15%.
[Meme] Many Volunteers Now Realise the "Open" in "OpenSUSE" or "openSUSE" Was Labour-Mining
Back to coding, packaging and testing, slaves
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, July 16, 2024
IRC logs for Tuesday, July 16, 2024
Microsoft Windows "Market Share" in New Zealand Plunges to 25%
Android rising
[Meme] Ein Factory
A choice between "masters" (or "master race") is a false choice that results in mass exploitation and ultimately eradication (when there's little left to exploit)
Links 17/07/2024: Open Source Initiative Lies and Dark Net Thoughts
Links for the day
SUSE Goes Aryan: You May Not Use the Germanic Brand Anymore (It's Monopolised by the Corporation)
Worse than grammar Nazis
Media Distorting Truth to Promote Ignorance
online media is rapidly collapsing
Gratis But Not Free as in Freedom: How Let's Encrypt is Dying in Geminispace
Let's Encrypt is somewhat of a dying breed where the misguided CA model is shunned