To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| oiaohm | I don't fear anyone. If you have technically screwed up pray. | Apr 22 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| tessier_ | I'm SO close to just telling my boss off and quitting. | Apr 22 00:00 |
| tessier_ | I have a feeling I'm pretty darn close to having another offer lined up. | Apr 22 00:00 |
| wispygalaxy | hi oiaohm and tessier_ | Apr 22 00:00 |
| oiaohm | My boss knows me. | Apr 22 00:00 |
| oiaohm | Telling him off is kinda regular. | Apr 22 00:00 |
| wispygalaxy | what's wrong, boss troubles? | Apr 22 00:00 |
| wispygalaxy | my dad doesnt like his boss, either haha | Apr 22 00:01 |
| tessier_ | Yes. And I am totally de-motivated. | Apr 22 00:01 |
| tessier_ | This is the sort of guy who will threaten to fire you if you don't agree that he's a genious. | Apr 22 00:01 |
| wispygalaxy | that sucks, maybe taking a walk will cheer you up. it helps me certainly | Apr 22 00:01 |
| tessier_ | And loves lording his masters degree over my head. | Apr 22 00:02 |
| wispygalaxy | i think he has low self-esteem | Apr 22 00:02 |
| wispygalaxy | there's a guy like that at my dad's work. he takes the credit for what my dad does, but in the end my dad lets everyone know that that it really was his idea | Apr 22 00:03 |
| oiaohm | Last boss to do that to me got annoyed when I printed out a batch of resumes at work. | Apr 22 00:05 |
| oiaohm | Mind you its my current boss. | Apr 22 00:05 |
| wispygalaxy | is he stressed or is touchy in general | Apr 22 00:06 |
| wispygalaxy | little things bother people when they are stressed | Apr 22 00:07 |
| schestowitz | here is the part that explains RAF bases in the UK are US bases in disguise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWQ-1X44e7o... | Apr 22 00:08 |
| wispygalaxy | scary! | Apr 22 00:09 |
| wispygalaxy | anyway, who's excited for ubuntu 9.04? | Apr 22 00:11 |
| schestowitz | I enjoy this man's talks | Apr 22 00:11 |
| schestowitz | ushimitsudoki: he talks about Okinawa too | Apr 22 00:11 |
| wispygalaxy | japan? | Apr 22 00:11 |
| schestowitz | I think it's part of its sovereignty. | Apr 22 00:12 |
| wispygalaxy | ah i see | Apr 22 00:12 |
| wispygalaxy | i want to go to japan, i hear it's not as crazy as people say it is | Apr 22 00:12 |
| wispygalaxy | still... i want to see for myself haha :P | Apr 22 00:12 |
| wispygalaxy | i like the fashion, and im a fan of sushi | Apr 22 00:13 |
| oiaohm | That is the thing. | Apr 22 00:16 |
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| oiaohm | I don't know how to stress. | Apr 22 00:16 |
| oiaohm | I know how to focus in. | Apr 22 00:16 |
| oiaohm | So network coming to bits I will be standing there perfectly carm. | Apr 22 00:17 |
| wispygalaxy | i stress a lot. i find it helpful to write down what is bothering me | Apr 22 00:17 |
| oiaohm | Major things that have annoyed bosses is when I am fully focused in on a problem I am 100 percent deaf. | Apr 22 00:17 |
| wispygalaxy | then i make a list of things to do to solve things | Apr 22 00:17 |
| wispygalaxy | you hyperfocus on things? | Apr 22 00:18 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm would find this interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=... When the dollars is exchanged for Euros, that'll be *it* | Apr 22 00:18 |
| wispygalaxy | its when you concentrate on something so hard that you ignore that outside world | Apr 22 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Who knows what it'll do for the European economy | Apr 22 00:19 |
| oiaohm | I was deaf for the first 6 years of my life wispygalaxy | Apr 22 00:19 |
| wispygalaxy | oh i see | Apr 22 00:19 |
| oiaohm | Giving up my hearing gives me an extra 15 percent to my thinking power. | Apr 22 00:19 |
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| oiaohm | Normal person does not gain anything from not hearing the outside world. | Apr 22 00:20 |
| schestowitz | Double negatives | Apr 22 00:20 |
| wispygalaxy | thats interesting, oiaohm | Apr 22 00:20 |
| schestowitz | I see now. | Apr 22 00:20 |
| schestowitz | A lot of communication is not based on vision and typing. | Apr 22 00:20 |
| wispygalaxy | 90% of what we observe is visual, learned that from a science video | Apr 22 00:20 |
| wispygalaxy | some people find it easier to communicate via typing/text; the meaning doesn't get lost that way | Apr 22 00:22 |
| tessier_ | wispygalaxy: I bet 90% of what we hear is aural too | Apr 22 00:22 |
| wispygalaxy | yea lol | Apr 22 00:23 |
| _boo_ | 90% of what we eat is food | Apr 22 00:23 |
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| wispygalaxy | so i wonder what that 10% is | Apr 22 00:24 |
| wispygalaxy | chemicals, perhaps? | Apr 22 00:24 |
| wispygalaxy | the livestock raised on farms eat feathers, hormones, and other gross stuff. | Apr 22 00:25 |
| oiaohm | Straigh thing is 15 percent almost instantly. | Apr 22 00:25 |
| oiaohm | gained to my thinking. | Apr 22 00:25 |
| _boo_ | wispygalaxy if we take chemicals into account... it's most likely 50% chemicals XD | Apr 22 00:25 |
| oiaohm | I don't know where my thinking power deaf ends. | Apr 22 00:26 |
| oiaohm | Never stayed deaf long enough to find out. | Apr 22 00:26 |
| wispygalaxy | yes, and genetic engineering will increase that, boo | Apr 22 00:26 |
| oiaohm | 4 hours is not enough. I was still slowly gaining. | Apr 22 00:26 |
| wispygalaxy | everybody has different ways of thinking, it makes us unique :) | Apr 22 00:27 |
| Balrog | hi everyone | Apr 22 00:28 |
| wispygalaxy | heyy balrog! | Apr 22 00:29 |
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| wispygalaxy | welcome to the BN party :) | Apr 22 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | :P | Apr 22 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | what's going on right now? | Apr 22 00:29 |
| oiaohm | Nothing much. | Apr 22 00:30 |
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| wispygalaxy | im working on a management case study at the computer | Apr 22 00:30 |
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| wispygalaxy | how's your CS classes, balrog? | Apr 22 00:30 |
| Balrog_ | cool. | Apr 22 00:30 |
| Balrog_ | CS classes ok. English / History classes ... :( | Apr 22 00:31 |
| schestowitz | I've just posted many links. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04... Time for bed. | Apr 22 00:31 |
| wispygalaxy | i hated english class, too many papers to write | Apr 22 00:31 |
| wispygalaxy | my sister loves history class, good for her i guess haha | Apr 22 00:32 |
| wispygalaxy | you are going to bed , roy? | Apr 22 00:32 |
| Balrog_ | heh yes. it's cool, just too many essays :/ | Apr 22 00:32 |
| wispygalaxy | i rather do problems than essays | Apr 22 00:32 |
| wispygalaxy | from the text, i mean | Apr 22 00:33 |
| Balrog_ | ahh yeah. | Apr 22 00:33 |
| wispygalaxy | it's so straightforward | Apr 22 00:33 |
| wispygalaxy | with literature essays, you need to provide tons of evidence for what you want to say. it gets annoying having to search through the book for quotes | Apr 22 00:34 |
| wispygalaxy | i had tons of post-its in my books (which marked where the quotes were) when i wrote essays | Apr 22 00:34 |
| Balrog_ | lol. | Apr 22 00:36 |
| _boo_ | yeah, literature is annoying | Apr 22 00:38 |
| wispygalaxy | it's a lot of BSing lol | Apr 22 00:38 |
| _boo_ | with all that formality or the fact that you don't choose what you're writing about | Apr 22 00:38 |
| wispygalaxy | especially when it comes to finding the symbolism of things in a novel | Apr 22 00:39 |
| Balrog_ | yeah :( | Apr 22 00:39 |
| wispygalaxy | one person can say this object represents x, another can say it represents y | Apr 22 00:39 |
| Balrog_ | exactly. | Apr 22 00:39 |
| _boo_ | waste of time | Apr 22 00:40 |
| Balrog_ | heh yeah | Apr 22 00:40 |
| wispygalaxy | thats why i hated the exams for english class. the multiple choice problems would say: "what does this stand for" and give you 4 choices. the thing is that i didn't think that any of those 4 choices represented the symbol | Apr 22 00:41 |
| Balrog_ | though I know a kid who changed his major from CS to english thinking english would be easier ... not so | Apr 22 00:41 |
| Balrog_ | lol | Apr 22 00:41 |
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| wispygalaxy | my roommate last year was friends with an english major. she had to read a book per week. every class consisted of papers/essays | Apr 22 00:41 |
| _boo_ | that's dumb | Apr 22 00:42 |
| wispygalaxy | the history majors have to do the same thing | Apr 22 00:42 |
| Balrog_ | yeah. | Apr 22 00:42 |
| wispygalaxy | i'm content with my finance major, not a lot of writing and lot of number crunching | Apr 22 00:42 |
| Balrog_ | I prefer programming .... and doing physics stuff ;) | Apr 22 00:43 |
| wispygalaxy | we call the accounting majors in my finance classes "bean counters" | Apr 22 00:43 |
| wispygalaxy | that's great that you found something you like, i know a lot of kids who don't know what to major in | Apr 22 00:44 |
| wispygalaxy | they are "open options" majors | Apr 22 00:44 |
| wispygalaxy | they take general classes then select a major at the end of sophomore year | Apr 22 00:44 |
| Balrog_ | heh bean counters... I know many of them ... generally don't consider the long term and only look to maximize short term [profits, etc] | Apr 22 00:44 |
| Balrog_ | yeah. | Apr 22 00:44 |
| wispygalaxy | yes, and that is a problem for many firms | Apr 22 00:44 |
| wispygalaxy | they tend to consider things "costs" not investments | Apr 22 00:45 |
| Balrog_ | a friend who works at akamai solutions complained about that. | Apr 22 00:45 |
| Balrog_ | yes. | Apr 22 00:45 |
| wispygalaxy | therefore, they miss out on long term benefits because they were too cheap | Apr 22 00:45 |
| Balrog_ | yes. | Apr 22 00:45 |
| Balrog_ | I'm looking at dell mini 9 .... | Apr 22 00:45 |
| wispygalaxy | i want one too | Apr 22 00:46 |
| wispygalaxy | i don't like heavy laptops | Apr 22 00:46 |
| Balrog_ | it's the one that can run hackintosh really well ... if you want to run hackintosh. Or you can run ubuntu | Apr 22 00:46 |
| Balrog_ | heavy laptops are good for doing real work | Apr 22 00:46 |
| wispygalaxy | i'm skinny and find it hard to carry my laptop around, it hurts my shoulder :( | Apr 22 00:47 |
| Balrog_ | I'm skinny too ... a lot of books to carry already :( ) | Apr 22 00:47 |
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| wispygalaxy | that sucks | Apr 22 00:47 |
| Balrog_ | interestingly MS forbids dell from bundling xp with the mini 9 unless the RAM and disk are limited | Apr 22 00:48 |
| wispygalaxy | i have 3 classes back to back, so i have to carry tons of books because i have no time to go back to my room | Apr 22 00:48 |
| Balrog_ | ew. I have a similar situation | Apr 22 00:48 |
| Balrog_ | back to back classes | Apr 22 00:48 |
| Balrog_ | even sometimes 'overlapping' classes though that's generally not the case | Apr 22 00:49 |
| wispygalaxy | at the end of that 3-class marathon, i have a 3 hour class | Apr 22 00:49 |
| wispygalaxy | two classes (2 hours each) and a 3 hour class | Apr 22 00:49 |
| Balrog_ | argh. My longest class is 8:10-10 am | Apr 22 00:49 |
| Balrog_ | no 3-hr classes | Apr 22 00:49 |
| wispygalaxy | it meets once a week, not twice a week like the regular 1.5 hr classes | Apr 22 00:49 |
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| Balrog_ | I see. | Apr 22 00:50 |
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| wispygalaxy | i dont have the overlapping problem, whew | Apr 22 00:50 |
| wispygalaxy | next semester im not taking any 3 hour classes, though | Apr 22 00:50 |
| Balrog_ | I'm doing summer classes | Apr 22 00:50 |
| Balrog_ | IH 1, calc 3, and differential equations | Apr 22 00:50 |
| wispygalaxy | neat, my friend did that and liked it | Apr 22 00:50 |
| wispygalaxy | it's more laid-back | Apr 22 00:50 |
| wispygalaxy | since it's summer, i guess haha | Apr 22 00:51 |
| Balrog_ | heh yeah. | Apr 22 00:51 |
| wispygalaxy | my little sister is learning how to drive now | Apr 22 00:53 |
| wispygalaxy | she's 16 | Apr 22 00:53 |
| Balrog_ | cool. I'm too busy + insurance is a lot :( | Apr 22 00:53 |
| wispygalaxy | the good news is that colleges offer buses, and entertainment is near campus | Apr 22 00:54 |
| Balrog_ | I take the train ... it's not far for me | Apr 22 00:54 |
| wispygalaxy | i live between philly and nyc, so i can go to either for fun | Apr 22 00:54 |
| Balrog_ | cool. I'm here in philly | Apr 22 00:55 |
| wispygalaxy | i have to take the bus from here, then take a train to nyc | Apr 22 00:55 |
| Balrog_ | never been in nyc ... | Apr 22 00:55 |
| wispygalaxy | i've been there a couple of times, it's nice in the spring time | Apr 22 00:55 |
| wispygalaxy | central park is cool | Apr 22 00:55 |
| Balrog_ | nice. I hear everything is really expensive ther. | Apr 22 00:56 |
| Balrog_ | there * | Apr 22 00:56 |
| wispygalaxy | yes, in manhattan. the monthly rent can skyrocket too | Apr 22 00:57 |
| wispygalaxy | i've also been to camden, nj. it's not as scary as they say it is (people think it's a ghetto). the aquarium over there is fun | Apr 22 00:57 |
| Balrog_ | yeah. haven't been there either. | Apr 22 00:58 |
| wispygalaxy | it may look a bit underdeveloped | Apr 22 00:58 |
| Balrog_ | lol | Apr 22 00:58 |
| Balrog_ | camden? | Apr 22 00:58 |
| wispygalaxy | it's famous for being a scary place in nj | Apr 22 00:58 |
| wispygalaxy | south jersey | Apr 22 00:58 |
| wispygalaxy | my sister went to ozzfest with her friend in camden lol | Apr 22 00:58 |
| wispygalaxy | ozzfest is where bands play in the summer | Apr 22 00:59 |
| wispygalaxy | my mom was very reluctant to let my sis to go to ozzfest because she thought punks were scary, but nothing really happened | Apr 22 00:59 |
| Balrog_ | lol | Apr 22 00:59 |
| wispygalaxy | she went with her friend and her friend's parents, by the way | Apr 22 01:00 |
| wispygalaxy | the jersey beaches are wonderful, i like seaside heights and point pleasant | Apr 22 01:01 |
| wispygalaxy | have you been to the beach lately? | Apr 22 01:01 |
| Balrog_ | we never have been going to the beach. Though my family likes to go to places like lancaster cty. | Apr 22 01:01 |
| Balrog_ | (county) | Apr 22 01:02 |
| wispygalaxy | i've been to lancaster cty before on vacation | Apr 22 01:02 |
| wispygalaxy | hershey park is near there | Apr 22 01:03 |
| wispygalaxy | as in hershey chocolate | Apr 22 01:03 |
| Balrog_ | hershey park is like 40 miles farther | Apr 22 01:04 |
| wispygalaxy | i've been to hershey at least 3 times | Apr 22 01:04 |
| Balrog_ | cool. how is it there? | Apr 22 01:05 |
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| wispygalaxy | once you go in you can take a tour of how they make the hershey chocolate | Apr 22 01:05 |
| wispygalaxy | every gift shop is filled with chocolate, needless to say | Apr 22 01:06 |
| wispygalaxy | but i like the rides better | Apr 22 01:06 |
| wispygalaxy | my mom will not go on roller coasters haha | Apr 22 01:06 |
| wispygalaxy | she only likes the ferris wheel | Apr 22 01:06 |
| Balrog_ | I'm not big into rides. | Apr 22 01:06 |
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| wispygalaxy | i love roller coasters, it doesn't scare me one bit | Apr 22 01:07 |
| wispygalaxy | my sis went on the kingda ka (the largest coaster in the world) | Apr 22 01:08 |
| wispygalaxy | here's a pic: http://www.eventective.com/blog/wp-co... | Apr 22 01:08 |
| wispygalaxy | it goes straight up, then straight down | Apr 22 01:08 |
| wispygalaxy | my sis went on that when she was 14 | Apr 22 01:08 |
| wispygalaxy | and survived | Apr 22 01:09 |
| Balrog_ | lol | Apr 22 01:09 |
| wispygalaxy | i have to go on that, too | Apr 22 01:09 |
| wispygalaxy | she beat me to it, grrr | Apr 22 01:09 |
| wispygalaxy | XD | Apr 22 01:09 |
| wispygalaxy | one kid died on that, though. he fell out since he was too small | Apr 22 01:10 |
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| Balrog_ | you mean, one kid ever? Why did they let someone who was too small on? | Apr 22 01:12 |
| wispygalaxy | yeah, the news said that he was too small. i guess the ride operators didnt care | Apr 22 01:12 |
| wispygalaxy | they were too distracted i think | Apr 22 01:12 |
| Balrog_ | that's not good. | Apr 22 01:14 |
| wispygalaxy | i'm certainly tall enough for rides, but i hope im not too skinny for them. i always make sure the harness is on extra tight right before the ride starts | Apr 22 01:15 |
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| Balrog_ | lol | Apr 22 01:17 |
| Balrog_ | I never tried, so idk. | Apr 22 01:19 |
| Balrog_ | better things to do ;) | Apr 22 01:19 |
| wispygalaxy | if you really wanna know how it's like riding it, start off slowly and build up tons of confidence | Apr 22 01:20 |
| wispygalaxy | sure, i agree, balrog :) | Apr 22 01:20 |
| wispygalaxy | school is almost out for me, in about 2.5 weeks | Apr 22 01:24 |
| wispygalaxy | and i'm stuck doing projects now | Apr 22 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | same here :( | Apr 22 01:25 |
| wispygalaxy | why do teachers pile up stuff near the end of courses?? | Apr 22 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | no idea. | Apr 22 01:25 |
| wispygalaxy | i guess it's due to procrastination | Apr 22 01:26 |
| Balrog_ | maybe. On the part of the teacher and the student, I suppose | Apr 22 01:26 |
| wispygalaxy | well, it'll be done soon. i feel sorry for my little sis still stuck in high school- she's done in mid/late june | Apr 22 01:27 |
| Balrog_ | yeah :/ | Apr 22 01:28 |
| wispygalaxy | anyway, i have to go now. it was fun talking to you! :) | Apr 22 01:30 |
| wispygalaxy | good night, everyone | Apr 22 01:31 |
| Balrog_ | good night | Apr 22 01:32 |
| Balrog_ | see you around soon :) | Apr 22 01:32 |
| wispygalaxy | i'll chat with you soon! | Apr 22 01:32 |
| wispygalaxy | ^_^ | Apr 22 01:32 |
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| mib_79dkda | hey roy, are you here? | Apr 22 02:06 |
| mib_79dkda | this is carla at linux today | Apr 22 02:06 |
| mib_79dkda | wondering if you had seen this | Apr 22 02:06 |
| mib_79dkda | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?stor... | Apr 22 02:06 |
| Balrog_ | roy isn't here right now | Apr 22 02:08 |
| mib_79dkda | ok | Apr 22 02:08 |
| mib_79dkda | it's a fun read :) | Apr 22 02:09 |
| mib_79dkda | I'll keep an eye on boycottnovell in case he covers it | Apr 22 02:09 |
| mib_79dkda | and now I am going to go goof off. have a nice evening everyone! | Apr 22 02:10 |
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| air_ | yay... i found good torrent clien | Apr 22 03:30 |
| air_ | t | Apr 22 03:30 |
| air_ | oops, a bit wrong channel | Apr 22 03:31 |
| no problem, share | Apr 22 03:31 | |
| air_ | azureus :)) | Apr 22 03:31 |
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| air_ | looks almost like utorrent and has plenty of settings | Apr 22 03:32 |
| air_ | little bit less comfortable but it's old version in either case :) | Apr 22 03:32 |
| Mepis used to come with that. | Apr 22 03:32 | |
| I still use ncurses. | Apr 22 03:33 | |
| air_ | i wanna have full visual control and mouse | Apr 22 03:33 |
| air_ | spoiled with windows... you know | Apr 22 03:34 |
| no | Apr 22 03:34 | |
| :) | Apr 22 03:34 | |
| air_ | what no... i'm boo and iwmw and ... so you know | Apr 22 03:34 |
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| air_ | wow, azureus seems to be even more informative than utorrent | Apr 22 05:21 |
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| Priceless. GL calls Alex Brown a prominent troll, http://www.groklaw.net/article.php... | Apr 22 06:45 | |
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| schestowitz | I am suspicious | Apr 22 07:20 |
| schestowitz | This person < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/21/c... > show up ONLY when I write about security and always defends Microsoft using a Web proxy | Apr 22 07:21 |
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| ushimitsudoki | That comment is bogus anyway. For example, the commentor (Yggdrasil) takes you to task for not mentioning that the Computer World article says that "some user action was clearly required"...However: | Apr 22 07:47 |
| ushimitsudoki | 1. That is speculation (and noted as so) in the computer world article | Apr 22 07:48 |
| schestowitz | Yes, you should see all the comments from him | Apr 22 07:48 |
| ushimitsudoki | 2. "user action" could mean anything from "clicking OK on a EULA-like notice" to "turning on the computer". weasel words are tricky like that | Apr 22 07:48 |
| schestowitz | He shows up out of nothing with a proxy and a Linux distro name just to attack arguments about security. | Apr 22 07:48 |
| *schestowitz watches http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_... | Apr 22 07:49 | |
| ushimitsudoki | BTW, I like the effort on the wiki main page and I hope you consider simplifying the blog-side of the site. You know I enjoy the content, but the presentation is a bit in need of a clean up. Keep it up, though! | Apr 22 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Yes, I don't know what to do | Apr 22 08:02 |
| schestowitz | There are limitations in the software (CMS) | Apr 22 08:02 |
| schestowitz | What bothers me the most (Well, lets me down rather) is that we have some very good old posts like the ones about MS vs Intel and it's buried too deep inside. | Apr 22 08:02 |
| schestowitz | So going to the 'drawing board' so to speak, it's time to subdivide into logical units and create some sort of tree structure. WordPress won't enable such a thing | Apr 22 08:03 |
| air_ | seems like it's yet another time to ban-evade | Apr 22 08:06 |
| air_ | they banned me for their intolerance to gay intolerant | Apr 22 08:07 |
| air_ | AGAIN | Apr 22 08:07 |
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| schestowitz | BN did over 10GB of traffic yesterday | Apr 22 08:10 |
| schestowitz | Our best ever was almost 20GB | Apr 22 08:10 |
| schestowitz | []When we leaked OOXML IIRC] | Apr 22 08:10 |
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| blankthemuffin | why are you boycotting microsoft in the first place? I presume you don't actually release software as if it's not already apparent, they have by far the market share. By limiting interop with microsoft platforms, nobody will ever switch over. The real world doesn't care about something being truly open. Lets investigate a conventionally microsoft market. Games. Game Developer X doesn't care about linux because it's a pain to port to, and nobo | Apr 22 08:21 |
| blankthemuffin | dy uses it anyway. Indie Game Developer Y, would like in theory to support linux, but unless it's simple, it's not worth the bother. Hello Mono, now indie game developer Y can support both platforms with ease, adding another fun game to linux's arsenal, and allowing more people to share a fuller experience when using linux. After the initial few games, people start seeing it as a legit platform and target it more seriously, people who try out | Apr 22 08:21 |
| blankthemuffin | linux are now loosing less of their traditional uses, and this lowers the entry barrier. Now the entry barrier is lower, more people use it and hence more developers care. | Apr 22 08:21 |
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| ushimitsudoki | blankthemuffin: You do know that Microsoft has actively and as a matter of policy sought to intentionally destroy linux and open source for over a decade? That's somewhere around reason one for me anyway. | Apr 22 08:23 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, but you're missing the point. Anybody serious in the software world cannot do this. It's absurd. | Apr 22 08:24 |
| ushimitsudoki | I know. If only Sun, IBM, id software could see that. They aren't really serious in the software game though. | Apr 22 08:25 |
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| blankthemuffin | You're saying "Yeah don't provide any interop just in case microsoft pull something on it - yeah, just ignore 95% of your potential userbase" and it's all for ideological reasons. | Apr 22 08:26 |
| ushimitsudoki | That's not true, but let's say it was...so what? *Someone* has to provide ideology. | Apr 22 08:27 |
| ushimitsudoki | And that's not what I'm saying anyway, you are fighting a straw man by putting words in my mouth -- or do you really think the takeaway here is "Yeah don't provide any interop just in case microsoft pull something on it - yeah, just ignore 95% of your potential userbase" | Apr 22 08:28 |
| blankthemuffin | Ideology is fine, but you seem to be ignoring the practical aspects of it. | Apr 22 08:28 |
| ushimitsudoki | No. There are numerous cross-platform tools that are not dependent on microft. OpenGL / Flash / Java and many more (to varying degrees) | Apr 22 08:28 |
| ushimitsudoki | and for varying purposes | Apr 22 08:29 |
| blankthemuffin | And two of them are dependent on other third parties. | Apr 22 08:29 |
| ushimitsudoki | So? | Apr 22 08:29 |
| blankthemuffin | What's the difference between them and microsoft. | Apr 22 08:29 |
| ushimitsudoki | All 3rd parties are not equal. Surely you can see that? | Apr 22 08:29 |
| ushimitsudoki | Seriously? | Apr 22 08:29 |
| ushimitsudoki | Start here if you are honestly asking that question: http://meandubuntu.wordpress.com/... | Apr 22 08:29 |
| blankthemuffin | yes seriously, who cares what microsoft thinks of open source software, they have a good product. | Apr 22 08:30 |
| blankthemuffin | Lets ignore a superior product because microsoft is evil | Apr 22 08:30 |
| ushimitsudoki | I disagree with the assertion that MS has a superior product, but even if we grant that, I do not see that the "best product" means it is the "right thing". | Apr 22 08:31 |
| ushimitsudoki | There can be things that are immoral, for example, that are more practical than what we consider moral choices. | Apr 22 08:32 |
| blankthemuffin | yes but this is hardly immoral now is it. | Apr 22 08:33 |
| blankthemuffin | Compared with Java, I would say microsoft has a very superior product, as that seems to be the way you lot are pushing. | Apr 22 08:33 |
| ushimitsudoki | I think it is, which is exactly why I am opposed to Microsoft. | Apr 22 08:33 |
| blankthemuffin | So I take it you never use any non-free software ushimitsudoki? | Apr 22 08:34 |
| ushimitsudoki | blankthemuffin: of course I do. i am not arguing that non-free software is immoral. again you are constructing a straw man | Apr 22 08:34 |
| blankthemuffin | Well you're saying microsoft is somehow worse than every other company which makes non-free software. | Apr 22 08:35 |
| blankthemuffin | It's a company, this is what companies do. | Apr 22 08:35 |
| blankthemuffin | they protect their own. | Apr 22 08:36 |
| ushimitsudoki | No it is not. Simply saying something is a company is not a justification. There are many companies that people object to. Brothels. Check-cashing places. Pawn shops. Gambling houses. Blackwater. and so on. | Apr 22 08:36 |
| ushimitsudoki | Pick whatever "vice" you dislike. | Apr 22 08:36 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, but people still use them. | Apr 22 08:36 |
| ushimitsudoki | And some people do not. Some people take action to try to convince others to see why they object. | Apr 22 08:37 |
| ushimitsudoki | And others do not care. That is fine. | Apr 22 08:37 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, there's nothing wrong with that. But this is a different matter. | Apr 22 08:39 |
| ushimitsudoki | Is it? I thought it was the very matter at hand...what is the matter, then? | Apr 22 08:40 |
| blankthemuffin | The matter is not the company, although I don't see that they are as evil as you propose. But the interoperation between free software, and a product the so called evil company provides. | Apr 22 08:40 |
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| _spc_ | ban-evading is fun | Apr 22 08:42 |
| ushimitsudoki | I have said time and time again, "interoperation" is only an issue because Microsoft does *not* want it. It is Microsoft that insists on its own proprietary and controlled standards, and only court order after court order has given any progress | Apr 22 08:42 |
| _spc_ | one day i gonna automate it | Apr 22 08:42 |
| ushimitsudoki | It is dishonest in the extreme for Microsoft apologists to act like "interoperability" is any real problem, rather than an issue *entirely* of Microsoft's own making | Apr 22 08:42 |
| _spc_ | it's rather m$ existence is an issue | Apr 22 08:43 |
| blankthemuffin | It's not dishonest at all, it's true. Who cares who made the problem, it's there. | Apr 22 08:43 |
| blankthemuffin | It's obvious that it's not in microsofts interest to fix it to any great degree, but that's not to say that somebody else should not. | Apr 22 08:43 |
| ushimitsudoki | I'm sorry, I don't follow where you are going with this. You asked about problems with Microsoft I thought? Now you are talking about "somebody else" fixing it? | Apr 22 08:44 |
| blankthemuffin | If you go back to the start, you might notice that I'm talking about mono. | Apr 22 08:45 |
| ushimitsudoki | I'm sorry this is first message I saw from you: "why are you boycotting microsoft in the first place? I presume you don't actually release software as if it's not already apparent, they have by far the market share. By limiting interop with microsoft platforms, nobody will ever switch over. The real world doesn't care about something being truly open. Lets investigate a conventionally microsoft market. Games. Game De | Apr 22 08:45 |
| ushimitsudoki | I don't see mono in this, but I would be glad to speak to that issue as well if you like. | Apr 22 08:46 |
| blankthemuffin | that was a single message, it continues. | Apr 22 08:46 |
| schestowitz | blankthemuffin: software should work in all platforms | Apr 22 08:46 |
| schestowitz | It was going to | Apr 22 08:46 |
| schestowitz | Java, OpenGL, etc | Apr 22 08:46 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft actively worked to sabotage it | Apr 22 08:46 |
| schestowitz | And it took pride in this (see internal mail) | Apr 22 08:46 |
| schestowitz | As such, it should be approached with criminal charges | Apr 22 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Which it was | Apr 22 08:47 |
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| schestowitz | Judge Jackson urged to start a criminal trial/charges against the execs | Apr 22 08:47 |
| ushimitsudoki | Ah I see. Are you proposing that mono is the only / the best / a really-really good xplatform dev tool? | Apr 22 08:47 |
| schestowitz | But.. as you may know, the tail wags the dog in the US | Apr 22 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft laughs at the USDOJ | Apr 22 08:47 |
| schestowitz | And then puts its people in it | Apr 22 08:47 |
| ushimitsudoki | Surely you realize most cross-platform games (to stick to your chosen example) do *not* use Mono? | Apr 22 08:49 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, and there is shit all cross platform games ushimitsudoki. | Apr 22 08:49 |
| blankthemuffin | It's an area where the open source world needs to improve. | Apr 22 08:49 |
| ushimitsudoki | You think mono is a good answer then? | Apr 22 08:50 |
| blankthemuffin | Exactly schestowitz. But that's limited by Java being pretty shitty, OpenGL fucking around with standards, and microsoft making in the end, a better product ( how they got there aside ). It doesn't matter if microsoft made the problem, I'm pretty sure we can safely say they're not going to start developing cross platform apps. But it can be helped, by providing modern methods of cross platform development. | Apr 22 08:50 |
| ushimitsudoki | It does matter. | Apr 22 08:50 |
| blankthemuffin | Well it might matter to those who worry about such things, but it doesn't matter from a commercial standpoint. | Apr 22 08:51 |
| ushimitsudoki | You don't get to crap on people for a decade and then turn around and ask for their support, even indirectly. People are rightfully wary of anything coming out of Microsoft related to Open Source. | Apr 22 08:51 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, be wary, but by no means ignore it. | Apr 22 08:51 |
| ushimitsudoki | And, considering how Microsoft treats its business partners in general, people are rightfully wary of relying too closely on Microsoft in general. | Apr 22 08:51 |
| blankthemuffin | Exploit what you can, everybody else does. | Apr 22 08:52 |
| ushimitsudoki | I disagree, that is sociopathic. Not everyone thinks that making the most money possible is the goal of life. | Apr 22 08:53 |
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| blankthemuffin | I never said anything about making money. | Apr 22 08:53 |
| ushimitsudoki | Exploit it for what then if not money? What did you mean? Exploit it for charity and goodwill and human progress? I am sorry for the inference. | Apr 22 08:54 |
| blankthemuffin | exploit for the benefit of your own ideals. In this example, the advancement of linux as a serious operating system in the modern world. | Apr 22 08:55 |
| ushimitsudoki | Linux is a serious operating system already. Linux is second only to ITRON as the OS running the most machines on earth. | Apr 22 08:56 |
| blankthemuffin | Let me say, serious desktop operating system then. | Apr 22 08:57 |
| ushimitsudoki | And it will eventually take that market as well. The free-er the market, the faster Linux will take over. As things are now, it will take quite a long time I expect, but that's fine. Just because it's not #1 *right now*, doesn't mean it is a failure or necessarily even need to change anything at all. (Though I have my own ideas of what should change, of course) | Apr 22 08:58 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, but it's not going to change if changing means dropping everything you used to have. | Apr 22 08:59 |
| ushimitsudoki | It doesn't mean that. Linux has become better for home users every year, don't you think? I know its hella better now that the first time I ever tried Slackware back in the early 90s | Apr 22 08:59 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, but it's still not very big, and adding more methods of interoperability means more people using it. | Apr 22 09:00 |
| ushimitsudoki | How is Linux's market share a failure considering the economic might (and convicted illegal) actions Microsoft has enjoyed as an advange for all the years. It's actually damn near a miracle Linux is a popular in the home as it is | Apr 22 09:00 |
| ushimitsudoki | It's done quite well without "handouts" from Microsoft so far. I say stay the course and continue to improve as it has been doing. Incorporating Microsoft-brand technologies is always risky, and best left for the absolute necessities | Apr 22 09:02 |
| ushimitsudoki | and, despite some people's spin, mono is nowhere close to being a necessity (compared to something like FAT/NTFS support, for example) | Apr 22 09:02 |
| blankthemuffin | I never said it was a failure, just it's not very big. And you're right, it is a damn near miracle, why not nurture the miracle, not just hope it continues to grow. | Apr 22 09:02 |
| ushimitsudoki | You are begging the question, assuming that supporting mono is nurturing. I assume that it is dangerous. I could be wrong, and if I see evidence to that, I will change my position | Apr 22 09:03 |
| blankthemuffin | mono is not a necessity, but if you look at the stats on what's being used for application development, .NET is sky rocketing, why not grab a hold and go with it? | Apr 22 09:03 |
| blankthemuffin | How is it dangerous? | Apr 22 09:04 |
| schestowitz | Just as journalists ignore the fact that Conficker is a Windows problem, they also conveniently ignore the identity of ACT: Microsoft Unleashes Its Paid Guns to Fight European Regulators http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/22/ms... | Apr 22 09:04 |
| ushimitsudoki | brb srry | Apr 22 09:05 |
| blankthemuffin | You've thrown a curve ball there schestowitz, what does that have to do with this? | Apr 22 09:05 |
| ushimitsudoki | he is just posting news links | Apr 22 09:06 |
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| ushimitsudoki | Alright here is an example of what I would consider "dangerous" | Apr 22 09:07 |
| ushimitsudoki | 1. The effort that goes into mono is a waste of resources, because mono will never be fully compatible nor up-to-date with "real .NET" from Microsoft. But, it allows an argument (on the face of things) that ".NET is Open Source / Cross Platform / MS reaching out to Linux / etc." and distracts people from developing or improving an actual open cross platform tool. (See: Parrot, Vala, and the like) | Apr 22 09:08 |
| ushimitsudoki | 2. Mono also lays groundwork for things like Moonlight which are much more restrictive and non-free. Yet if one "accepts" mono, it seems hard to not go on and accept Moonlight. Again, this is something we see playing out right now. | Apr 22 09:09 |
| blankthemuffin | 1) Mono improves on .NET in various manners. I think that just about covers it. | Apr 22 09:09 |
| ushimitsudoki | No. Mono has a few classes / objects that .NET does not have, and does not have some. that is not covered at all. | Apr 22 09:10 |
| ushimitsudoki | Some are improvements, perhaps - but *any* difference at all *weakens* the crossplatform appeal, I should think | Apr 22 09:11 |
| blankthemuffin | Mono implements most of .NET, including many of microsoft's non-standard APIs. Mono extends on .NET with various classes and technologies, citing: Mono.SIMD instructions, and Mono coroutines / threadlets | Apr 22 09:11 |
| blankthemuffin | It doesn't *weaken* the cross platform appeal, mono works in windows too. | Apr 22 09:12 |
| ushimitsudoki | most is not all. and "extensions" are the very things that cause the whole interoperability mess in the first place | Apr 22 09:12 |
| ushimitsudoki | You seriously think developers that just dropped $7K for MSDN are going to use Mono instead of .NET? I don't see that happening | Apr 22 09:13 |
| ushimitsudoki | Developers on Windows are going to use Microsoft tools overwhelmingly. To think that mono will gain traction with Windows developers is unrealistic, I think. | Apr 22 09:13 |
| blankthemuffin | no, but then again, it's folly to go after the big fish straight off. I propose that Mono will allow a more gradual transition, beginning with independent and small developers. | Apr 22 09:14 |
| blankthemuffin | 2) How, I've seen an awful lot of talk about how all these things are restrictive, non-free and about to be pulled out from under the free software world, but I've not seen anything by anybody with a. legal clout, or b. any kind of strong reasoning at all. I just see "such and such will happen", nothing backing it up. | Apr 22 09:14 |
| ushimitsudoki | I agree that a gradual transition is possible, but it is so unlikely and unrealistic and I think it is not an honest argument. Instead I think it is *much* more likely that Windows developers will continue to use whatever tools and technology are on this month's MSDN discs and that's it. | Apr 22 09:16 |
| blankthemuffin | And that's going to be different with your direction? The point is not so much to instantly allow interop between all applications, but to allow much simpler interop. | Apr 22 09:17 |
| ushimitsudoki | in the case of 2. Moonlight specifically says that it is only legal when directly acquired from Novell and is NOT legal when aquired from non-Novell sources. I believe that mono has confused this issue because of all the "mono is ECMA and RAND-Z" noise from | Apr 22 09:17 |
| ushimitsudoki | That is what I mean by restrictive (I have intentionally *not* brought up the mono-has-patent-problems issue, because that horse is well-beaten) | Apr 22 09:19 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm trying to bring it up, every one of the posts on your blog seems to say it, but I don't see any backed up evidence. Not to mention people like Mark Shuttleworth who I'm sure has plenty of experience and knowledge in the area seems to show it as not a non-issue, but something worth the risk. | Apr 22 09:23 |
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| ushimitsudoki1 | srry network issues. I didn't see any response to: That is what I mean by restrictive (I have intentionally *not* brought up the mono-has-patent-problems issue, because that horse is well-beaten) | Apr 22 09:24 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm trying to bring it up, every one of the posts on your blog seems to say it, but I don't see any backed up evidence. Not to mention people like Mark Shuttleworth who I'm sure has plenty of experience and knowledge in the area seems to show it as not a non-issue, but something worth the risk. | Apr 22 09:24 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Not my blog, actually - it's schestowitz's - I'm of similar (but not exact) thinking on the matter. My bottom line on the patents is this: much of .NET is patented. some of C#/CLR is RAND-Z. I do not think that C#/CLR alone is a compelling sub-set of .NET. I think that to implement a compelling sub-set of .NET you must eventually hit other .NET patents. | Apr 22 09:28 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | the mono people never seem to want to discuss that point, though - they seem happy to imply (or outright state) that .NET as a whole is ECMA/RAND-Z. That is dishonest (or woefully uninformed) | Apr 22 09:29 |
| blankthemuffin | But what exactly is patented, and what is the implications if microsoft decides to attack. Both sides are saying this and that, but neither are actually backing it up. | Apr 22 09:30 |
| blankthemuffin | And I suppose it depends what you mean by .NET, the .NET standard, or the stuff microsoft ships. | Apr 22 09:31 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | There are literally dozens of .NET patents easily found by searching the USPTO online. They specifically mention .NET and related components by name, often the exact class names. There is confusion over what exactly ".NET" means, and to be honest all sides are guilty of blurring the boundries. | Apr 22 09:33 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | The point I am making here is that it is ONLY C#/CLR that is ECMA/RAND-Z. But, mono is NOT JUST C#/CLR, indeed it can not be or it would be pointless. So, there are patent issues that are not addressed by brining up ECMA and so forth. I hope that is clear. | Apr 22 09:34 |
| MinceR | geekings | Apr 22 09:35 |
| blankthemuffin | Sure, I can see what you mean. But looking up patents would mean close to shit all to me. I'm no law student. Personally I'd think it interesting if somebody, who cares what side, would sit down and actually examine these patents, and show what particular parts are patented, and to what degree. At the moment both sides are saying the same thing and bending it their own way. | Apr 22 09:36 |
| schestowitz | Latest cautionary lesson on OOXML: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/... | Apr 22 09:36 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Fair enough, I am not a patent lawyer either. I do know that MS hold a ton of patents on ".NET stuff", but I couldn't offer a legal analysis. It would worry me if I were in the mono camp. | Apr 22 09:37 |
| blankthemuffin | Yeah, and from what I see it does. But not to warrant ignoring it. | Apr 22 09:38 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Well, that's really an issue of risk managment isn't it? What one person considers acceptable risk is different from another | Apr 22 09:39 |
| blankthemuffin | Yes, the only thing I see is no real public analysis of the risk. | Apr 22 09:39 |
| blankthemuffin | At the moment I'm really just interested as to what extent these patents could be a problem. | Apr 22 09:40 |
| blankthemuffin | With one side saying acceptable, and the other saying unacceptable, it's really not going anywhere without a detailed look into the problems. | Apr 22 09:41 |
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| blankthemuffin | Granted that would probably be a lot of time / money gone. | Apr 22 09:41 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | For example, if I thought that mono would REALLY increase the desktop share of Linux I might accept a larger degree of risk. But I don't. I can see why someone would, I don't think it is a stupid assumption or anything, I just don't think mono will help, for a host of reasons (many of which we have already at least mentioned in passing) | Apr 22 09:41 |
| blankthemuffin | How can one hope to make such a decision without actually looking into the risk. | Apr 22 09:42 |
| blankthemuffin | Everybody admits the risk, but nobody defines its extent. | Apr 22 09:42 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | What I mean is that putting aside the risks totally for a moment and just considering the mono project on pure technical merits, I don't think it is a winner. If I thought it was a fantastic project, then when the risk analysis came back in I would perhaps be a bit more accepting. | Apr 22 09:44 |
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| blankthemuffin | Well considering I use it pretty much every day, I'd call it a winner. | Apr 22 09:45 |
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| ushimitsudoki1 | And I don't use it at all. So I call it a loser. :) | Apr 22 09:45 |
| blankthemuffin | But have you used it? | Apr 22 09:45 |
| blankthemuffin | I'm guessing that since you're on freenode you're a programmer? Have you used C#? | Apr 22 09:46 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Yes. I used to develop for Windows. I have Petzold and everything still on my bookshelf. | Apr 22 09:47 |
| blankthemuffin | All my apps are cross platform, be it through Java, Mono, C++ with a bundle of work, or otherwise. Another method of this can not be a bad thing, risk aside. | Apr 22 09:48 |
| blankthemuffin | Especially considering the merits of mono as a system. Multi-Language, cross platform, fast. For mine I see C# as being much superior to Java and the other alternatives. | Apr 22 09:49 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | I have a personal application I re-write everytime I learn a new language. This means I know the logic pretty darn well and basically just need to learn the language. C# didn't come on as a "nice" language compared to something like, say, Python (putting aside speed issues and focusing on the language itself). I'm just saying that to point out that language choice is largely a personal preference | Apr 22 09:52 |
| MinceR | i see C++ and Python as being much superior to either. | Apr 22 09:52 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | I almost agree, but I don't honestly think any human being can actually understand everything about C++. | Apr 22 09:53 |
| MinceR | one does not need to understand everything about it to be able to use it. :) | Apr 22 09:53 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | I have about 20 C++ books and seem to need a different one every 10 minutes when coding C++ :) | Apr 22 09:53 |
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| MinceR | for example you can use [SGI] STL containers and not worry much about the details of writing a template. :) | Apr 22 09:54 |
| MinceR | and books help too, of course :) | Apr 22 09:54 |
| blankthemuffin | C++ is useful, but by no means an ideal language. | Apr 22 09:55 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | Is any language "ideal"? | Apr 22 09:55 |
| blankthemuffin | of course not, but C++ especially so. | Apr 22 09:56 |
| MinceR | neither is C# | Apr 22 09:56 |
| blankthemuffin | There is no 'ideal' language. | Apr 22 09:56 |
| blankthemuffin | There is what's good for a given job. | Apr 22 09:56 |
| blankthemuffin | But c++ from a technical standpoint is less than ideal. Lack of interop with other languages, dodgy error handling, especially with templates. Compiler incompatibilities. come to mind. | Apr 22 09:57 |
| MinceR | for example, if the job is to expose yourself and your customers to lawsuits from m$, C# is good for that ;) | Apr 22 09:57 |
| blankthemuffin | heh, once again we go back to the point of, well sure there's risk, but since nobody has defined it it's a moot point. | Apr 22 09:57 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | I don't want to get back into it, but just because something is not defined does not mean it is moot. Could be very much the opposite, in fact | Apr 22 09:58 |
| blankthemuffin | anyway this is going in circles, and I guess it's pretty obvious what the rest of the world thinks. Especially considering this channel has 30 people including a bundle of un-named mibbit connections, and #mono has 173 users. | Apr 22 10:01 |
| blankthemuffin | so I'm out | Apr 22 10:01 |
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| ushimitsudoki1 | Hooray! Appeal to popularity! Logical fallacy wins the day | Apr 22 10:01 |
| MinceR | i'm sure TomTom would say it's a moot point too | Apr 22 10:01 |
| MinceR | well, poor idiot ran out of arguments | Apr 22 10:02 |
| ushimitsudoki1 | He was better than most, though. | Apr 22 10:02 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT that mono uses gets on my bad side. | Apr 22 10:03 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT and linux memory mangement really don't work. | Apr 22 10:04 |
| MinceR | why? | Apr 22 10:04 |
| oiaohm_ | Linux when it loads a native program it only maps it into memory. | Apr 22 10:04 |
| oiaohm_ | So it can free the complete program from memory and never need to send it to swap. | Apr 22 10:04 |
| MinceR | and i suppose that won't work with JIT | Apr 22 10:05 |
| oiaohm_ | When the application is required just load it back from the file. | Apr 22 10:05 |
| MinceR | thus keeping the whole thing in memory? | Apr 22 10:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | Yep. | Apr 22 10:05 |
| MinceR | can you mmap into executable pages? | Apr 22 10:05 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT creates the executable in memory. | Apr 22 10:05 |
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| MinceR | it could back it with a file | Apr 22 10:05 |
| oiaohm_ | Worse it does it per user. | Apr 22 10:05 |
| MinceR | after all you'd want to save the results of optimization eventually | Apr 22 10:06 |
| MinceR | wouldn't you? | Apr 22 10:06 |
| oiaohm_ | AOT allows what you are talking about. | Apr 22 10:06 |
| oiaohm_ | do it once do it right basically. | Apr 22 10:06 |
| MinceR | i know, but it seems wasteful to collect data in runtime, do optimization on it and then throw it away when the process ends | Apr 22 10:06 |
| MinceR | then you could improve the executable image with each execution. | Apr 22 10:07 |
| oiaohm_ | You can do process optimisation on native binarys by runtime monitoring. | Apr 22 10:07 |
| oiaohm_ | There is no reason at all to be using JIT. | Apr 22 10:07 |
| MinceR | maybe that would be better than JIT | Apr 22 10:07 |
| MinceR | just collect data and improve the binary when the system is idle. | Apr 22 10:07 |
| oiaohm_ | Problem with JIT it makes space on disk look smaller. | Apr 22 10:08 |
| oiaohm_ | When ram usage is heavier. | Apr 22 10:08 |
| MinceR | anyway, this issue seems to be an issue with the idea of JIT, not linux memory management | Apr 22 10:08 |
| oiaohm_ | You have to remember out of ram system stops. | Apr 22 10:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Ram is highly valueable. | Apr 22 10:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Lot of programmers have forgot that. | Apr 22 10:09 |
| MinceR | i don't quite understand how JIT makes disk space look smaller | Apr 22 10:09 |
| oiaohm_ | bytecode could be classed as a compressed exe. | Apr 22 10:09 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT can also give the effect of less ram usage because the completely program is not built. | Apr 22 10:10 |
| MinceR | that would be a good thing | Apr 22 10:10 |
| oiaohm_ | The problem is what ever is built of the program is not releasable from memory. It has to be sent to swap. | Apr 22 10:10 |
| MinceR | that's what my mmap idea could fix, if it's possible | Apr 22 10:10 |
| oiaohm_ | Normal native problem. You can just release the memory reuse it. | Apr 22 10:10 |
| MinceR | it could be saved back to disk at any time and if it's saved it can be dropped from memory and reloaded later | Apr 22 10:11 |
| oiaohm_ | mmap with generation on fly don't work with application secuirty well. | Apr 22 10:11 |
| MinceR | indeed | Apr 22 10:11 |
| oiaohm_ | There is no real way to fix JIT. | Apr 22 10:11 |
| MinceR | you'd probably have to keep separate images for each process instance anyway | Apr 22 10:11 |
| oiaohm_ | Other than not use it. | Apr 22 10:11 |
| MinceR | or the JIT has to be some sort of central process that knows about each instance | Apr 22 10:11 |
| oiaohm_ | AOT with runtime monitoring doing optmisation can equal everything JIT can do. | Apr 22 10:12 |
| MinceR | (so it won't overwrite its own stuff when one of the instances is updated) | Apr 22 10:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | Big thing once the AOT is perfectly optmised you can give up the runtime monitering. | Apr 22 10:12 |
| MinceR | ic | Apr 22 10:12 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT seamed like a good idea. | Apr 22 10:12 |
| oiaohm_ | Once you try to make it work AOT starts looking great. | Apr 22 10:13 |
| oiaohm_ | AOT is basicaly turn .net into just another complier. | Apr 22 10:13 |
| oiaohm_ | No different to C C++ Objc .... | Apr 22 10:14 |
| MinceR | and turning .net into a compiler could avoid m$'s patents on it, if i understand the patent issue correctly. | Apr 22 10:14 |
| oiaohm_ | Yep. | Apr 22 10:14 |
| oiaohm_ | Complete allow users to keep on using .net yet not be dependant on patents. | Apr 22 10:14 |
| oiaohm_ | This is the ideal outcome. | Apr 22 10:15 |
| oiaohm_ | Performance, memory usage AOT with runtime monitoring wins. | Apr 22 10:15 |
| oiaohm_ | Diskusage little bit heavier. | Apr 22 10:15 |
| oiaohm_ | Disk space is fairly cheep. | Apr 22 10:16 |
| oiaohm_ | Remember being able to skip those writes to swap when out of memory do add up big time. | Apr 22 10:16 |
| oiaohm_ | Also would allow .net engine developers to be embraced by the normal complier developers. | Apr 22 10:19 |
| oiaohm_ | I cannot see any losses really by giving up JIT for good MinceR | Apr 22 10:19 |
| MinceR | well, this AOT approach seems to have the disadvantage of only being able to apply the improvements when that process is stopped | Apr 22 10:20 |
| MinceR | while JIT can probably do so in runtime | Apr 22 10:20 |
| MinceR | which might matter if you keep something running continuously for a long time | Apr 22 10:20 |
| oiaohm_ | You can alter a native executable in memory. | Apr 22 10:20 |
| MinceR | then again, i could be wrong about it | Apr 22 10:20 |
| oiaohm_ | ksplice does it with the Linux kernel. | Apr 22 10:20 |
| MinceR | after all there's little issue with replacing a readonly page | Apr 22 10:20 |
| oiaohm_ | While its running. | Apr 22 10:20 |
| MinceR | indeed | Apr 22 10:21 |
| MinceR | at least as long as you don't optimize the data structures, but i guess no JIT does that either. | Apr 22 10:21 |
| oiaohm_ | Ksplice is able to cope with that. | Apr 22 10:21 |
| MinceR | afaik ksplice doesn't work if structures were changed. | Apr 22 10:22 |
| oiaohm_ | Prototype can. | Apr 22 10:22 |
| oiaohm_ | Its highly messy. | Apr 22 10:22 |
| MinceR | oh. | Apr 22 10:22 |
| MinceR | :D | Apr 22 10:22 |
| MinceR | i'd expect it to be messy | Apr 22 10:22 |
| MinceR | well, the stack could be messy anyway, after all the addresses of parts of code in the executable could change | Apr 22 10:23 |
| oiaohm_ | Remember machine code is just another bytecode. | Apr 22 10:23 |
| MinceR | (and updating eip, of course) | Apr 22 10:23 |
| oiaohm_ | That is what makes JIT so stupid. | Apr 22 10:23 |
| oiaohm_ | You are running 2 bytecodes. | Apr 22 10:23 |
| oiaohm_ | Why in heck do you need 2. | Apr 22 10:24 |
| MinceR | one could say that the reason is that you know very well what one of those means semantically, but i'm not sure if that's true. | Apr 22 10:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Its simply not wanting to touch asm. | Apr 22 10:26 |
| oiaohm_ | That is all. | Apr 22 10:26 |
| MinceR | :) | Apr 22 10:28 |
| MinceR | another reason might be an architecture-independent obfuscated code you can compile into native code. | Apr 22 10:29 |
| MinceR | (after all, if you don't want/need to obfuscate the code, you might as well compile from source.) | Apr 22 10:29 |
| oiaohm_ | That is not a reason to kept JIT. | Apr 22 10:31 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT is always sold in the idea that JIT can out optmise normal compliers. | Apr 22 10:31 |
| MinceR | indeed | Apr 22 10:31 |
| oiaohm_ | Correct it can. But out optmising something that is profiling the native code. | Apr 22 10:32 |
| oiaohm_ | And rebuilding the native. | Apr 22 10:32 |
| oiaohm_ | No way JIT can do that. | Apr 22 10:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Every swap to disk kills JIT. | Apr 22 10:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Funny enough MSVC and Pgroup complier have runtime profiling. | Apr 22 10:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Everyone basically benches JIT agaisnt GCC that is useless at optmising to max. | Apr 22 10:36 |
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| MinceR | and what about ICC? | Apr 22 10:37 |
| MinceR | (if that's what the intel compiler is called) | Apr 22 10:37 |
| oiaohm_ | Last time I looked at ICC it did not. | Apr 22 10:38 |
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| oiaohm_ | I guess you are now like me the more you think about JIT more questions why come to mind. | Apr 22 10:39 |
| MinceR | well, now i don't think that JIT will inevitably take over everything and make everything faster. :) | Apr 22 10:40 |
| oiaohm_ | http://bellard.org/tcc/ You could run every C program on you system JIT. | Apr 22 10:41 |
| oiaohm_ | Yet anyone who is dumb enough to try finds out that memory disappears fast. | Apr 22 10:41 |
| oiaohm_ | Yes I was dumb enough at one point. | Apr 22 10:42 |
| MinceR | one could say that JIT isn't mature yet | Apr 22 10:42 |
| MinceR | just like microkernels aren't mature yet, either | Apr 22 10:42 |
| oiaohm_ | JIT to work will need a different OS kernel. | Apr 22 10:42 |
| oiaohm_ | You must be able to release as many blocks as able. | Apr 22 10:42 |
| oiaohm_ | AOT is what the Linux kernel prefers. | Apr 22 10:43 |
| schestowitz | People talk about Oracle's use of Sun products, but what about patents? http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/22/oracle... | Apr 22 10:43 |
| oiaohm_ | Same with most other OS's in existance. | Apr 22 10:43 |
| MinceR | bbl, lunch | Apr 22 10:43 |
| oiaohm_ | schestowitz: its not the time to attack MS. | Apr 22 10:46 |
| oiaohm_ | MS needs to get weaker yet. | Apr 22 10:47 |
| schestowitz | what do you mean? | Apr 22 10:51 |
| schestowitz | Not the time to attack? | Apr 22 10:51 |
| oiaohm_ | MS still has the funds to defend itself. | Apr 22 10:51 |
| schestowitz | It's not attacks, either. Attacks are pre-emptive. This is just coverage of what they do. | Apr 22 10:51 |
| schestowitz | bashing it attacking. Like, "Zune sucks! Don't buy Zune." | Apr 22 10:52 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft poisons a Europe panel" is not bashing | Apr 22 10:52 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: it doesn't matter | Apr 22 10:52 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle normal hits when it can destory. | Apr 22 10:52 |
| schestowitz | Those who look for answers (beyond Microsoft PR) will have it out there | Apr 22 10:52 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle is a lot nasiter company than SUN. | Apr 22 10:53 |
| oiaohm_ | Just Oracle is friendly to opensource. | Apr 22 10:53 |
| oiaohm_ | MS shills I can bet will be order to make out Oracle as evil as they can. | Apr 22 10:53 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle has always been a company that bows to no one. Any company to try will regret it. | Apr 22 10:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Most stupid thing MS could try its appling fat patents against Oracle. | Apr 22 10:55 |
| schestowitz | it has oin | Apr 22 10:59 |
| oiaohm_ | Software patents are a threat to Oracle. | Apr 22 11:00 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle does have software patents the scary thing for companies like Microsoft. Oracle has no patent licence agreements with anyone. | Apr 22 11:00 |
| schestowitz | I want to see how Oracle participates in FOSS now | Apr 22 11:00 |
| oiaohm_ | Its play chicken. | Apr 22 11:00 |
| schestowitz | It would be odd to see Oarcle employees advocating ODF all over the place | Apr 22 11:01 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle has participated for a long time. | Apr 22 11:01 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: Linux mostly | Apr 22 11:01 |
| schestowitz | Not FOSS at large. Hardly | Apr 22 11:01 |
| oiaohm_ | Most package management systems depend on berkley db. | Apr 22 11:02 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle has stuck to what they control. | Apr 22 11:02 |
| schestowitz | Google splits with Mozilla on 3D interwebs < Google splits with Mozilla on 3D interwebs > | Apr 22 11:02 |
| schestowitz | Oracle's Dr DBA speaks of peace with mysql | Apr 22 11:02 |
| schestowitz | http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/orac... | Apr 22 11:03 |
| schestowitz | From Mysql employee BTW | Apr 22 11:03 |
| schestowitz | Zack Urlocker | Apr 22 11:03 |
| oiaohm_ | Exactly what I am expecting. | Apr 22 11:04 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle will be happy with over 90 percent control of the database market. | Apr 22 11:04 |
| schestowitz | Gavin Clarke is flogging the next vapourware | Apr 22 11:04 |
| schestowitz | "Windows 8" | Apr 22 11:04 |
| oiaohm_ | Of course MS will not be happy. | Apr 22 11:05 |
| schestowitz | The Microsoft shills realise that Vista7 is rejected by eneterprises, as shown in surveys | Apr 22 11:05 |
| schestowitz | So they move on to vapourware after the vapourware | Apr 22 11:05 |
| oiaohm_ | I expect Oracle to bend the marketing. | Apr 22 11:05 |
| schestowitz | Maybe. | Apr 22 11:05 |
| oiaohm_ | Ie Oracle the biggest supplier of databases in the world you can depend on us. | Apr 22 11:05 |
| oiaohm_ | Yes there are a lot of upsides to Oracle keeping mysql. | Apr 22 11:06 |
| oiaohm_ | They have counted berkley db numbers before. | Apr 22 11:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | Oracle always has been for standards. | Apr 22 11:08 |
| oiaohm_ | So Oracle publically backing ODF would not be out side there normal operations. | Apr 22 11:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle Sun merge basically threatens MS with a well funded active eneny. | Apr 22 11:11 |
| oiaohm_ | http://infotech.indiatimes.com/a... Have you forgot schestowitz that Oracle is a member of the ODF alliance | Apr 22 11:13 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle has been a very media quite company. | Apr 22 11:13 |
| schestowitz | I was just preparing a post about Vista 7 | Apr 22 11:18 |
| oiaohm_ | That is the other thing I forget one of the major backend of mysql has had Oracle maintainership. | Apr 22 11:18 |
| schestowitz | Oracle defended ODF before | Apr 22 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Just not as vigorously as some other companies | Apr 22 11:19 |
| schestowitz | Oracle did this as much as Google | Apr 22 11:19 |
| oiaohm_ | So Oracle staff and mysql staff have always been talking to each other. | Apr 22 11:19 |
| oiaohm_ | The merge now allows them all in 1 room. | Apr 22 11:20 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle is a lot like google. | Apr 22 11:21 |
| oiaohm_ | Both very big companies both with major control of there markets. | Apr 22 11:21 |
| oiaohm_ | Both not wantting to draw too much attention. | Apr 22 11:21 |
| schestowitz | "Forget about Vista 7" is the message Microsoft is now sending: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/22/mic... | Apr 22 11:23 |
| schestowitz | Well, if oracle is synonymous with Enetrprise DBs, then publicity is not needed. | Apr 22 11:24 |
| schestowitz | Wow. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Or... 74,757 engineers | Apr 22 11:25 |
| schestowitz | That's a LOT | Apr 22 11:25 |
| schestowitz | Google in comparison is about 20k IIRC | Apr 22 11:25 |
| schestowitz | So Oracle is very heavyweight for its market cap | Apr 22 11:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle does a lot. | Apr 22 11:25 |
| schestowitz | Yes, Google now has "20,164" employee | Apr 22 11:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle does not brage about it. | Apr 22 11:26 |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google | Apr 22 11:26 |
| oiaohm_ | Lot of projects get code from Oracle staff. | Apr 22 11:26 |
| schestowitz | SAP has 51,447 employees | Apr 22 11:26 |
| schestowitz | But IBM is the HUGE one | Apr 22 11:27 |
| schestowitz | Big Blue... and not worth so much as a company | Apr 22 11:27 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is imploding fast because its software loses value | Apr 22 11:27 |
| schestowitz | XP=$5 | Apr 22 11:27 |
| schestowitz | MSFT is over-valued | Apr 22 11:27 |
| schestowitz | Wait until Thurs. results | Apr 22 11:27 |
| oiaohm_ | SAP and Oracle work on join projects. | Apr 22 11:31 |
| oiaohm_ | Since 2005 Oracle has been on a company aquirement binge | Apr 22 11:32 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: maybe you can hekp | Apr 22 11:32 |
| schestowitz | Something funny is happening | Apr 22 11:32 |
| schestowitz | Thunderbird opens pages almost instantly | Apr 22 11:33 |
| schestowitz | Same pages in Firefox are loading up very slowly | Apr 22 11:33 |
| schestowitz | What to look at and check..? | Apr 22 11:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Thunderbird has javascript disabled. | Apr 22 11:33 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Apr 22 11:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Disable firefox javascript. | Apr 22 11:33 |
| oiaohm_ | It can slow down some page loading. | Apr 22 11:34 |
| schestowitz | It's already disable for these sites | Apr 22 11:35 |
| schestowitz | Noscript | Apr 22 11:35 |
| schestowitz | Yahoo Posts Bad Numbers, Still Skates By < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/200... >; Down 78% http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/4... | Apr 22 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is just shuffling brands... Throwing Another Log Onto the Brand Fire < http://www.webpron... > | Apr 22 11:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Relsys 02009-03-23 March 23, 2009 Drug safety and risk management solutions with advanced analytics for the health sciences industry << another oracle aquirement. | Apr 22 11:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle has been aquiring about 8 companies a year. | Apr 22 11:36 |
| schestowitz | Yes, some anticompetitively | Apr 22 11:37 |
| MinceR | re | Apr 22 11:37 |
| oiaohm_ | That is where Oracle growing staff is coming form. | Apr 22 11:38 |
| oiaohm_ | Each aquired company has become a department. | Apr 22 11:38 |
| oiaohm_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft Compare to MS. | Apr 22 11:42 |
| schestowitz | Part of Oracle's DB s/w has just been released as GPL(v2), so maybe there's hope: http://www.h-online.com/open/Innobase-r... | Apr 22 11:43 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: Microsoft buys and eliminates | Apr 22 11:43 |
| schestowitz | Maybe Oracle too. We shall see. | Apr 22 11:43 |
| schestowitz | Buy to bury | Apr 22 11:43 |
| schestowitz | Encarta, Ensemble... | Apr 22 11:44 |
| schestowitz | Xen | Apr 22 11:44 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle has not eliminated | Apr 22 11:44 |
| oiaohm_ | In 2000 Oracle gained attention from the computer industry and the press after hiring private investigators to dig through the trash of organizations involved in a antitrust trial involving Microsoft.[27] << But never underestermate them. | Apr 22 11:45 |
| oiaohm_ | Ellison said: "We will ship our garbage to Redmond, and they can go through it. We believe in full disclosure." << Also boss of Oracle is warped. | Apr 22 11:46 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft is now doing PR nonsense in AU | Apr 22 12:17 |
| schestowitz | http://www.itwire.com/content/... | Apr 22 12:17 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft's strategy: commit crimes, then toss some money to turn people to Microsoft's slaves and pretend its charitable. | Apr 22 12:17 |
| schestowitz | Yet Another Journalism Professor Gets Nearly Every Fact Wrong In Saying Google Needs To Pay < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090420... > | Apr 22 12:21 |
| schestowitz | Chinese Search Engine Baidu: 70% of revenues will come from foreign markets within the next 15 years < http://www.web2asia.com/2009/04/20/chinese... > | Apr 22 12:23 |
| schestowitz | The US is still wasting money on weapons inc. nukes "Computer spies have broken into the Pentagon's $300 billion Joint Strike Fighter project -- the Defense Department's costliest weapons program ever -- according to current and former government officials familiar with the attacks." http://online.wsj.com/article... | Apr 22 12:26 |
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| schestowitz | The cover-up after abuse by UK police continues: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr... | Apr 22 12:28 |
| schestowitz | Deeper privacy intrusion from Google? http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/04/21/googl... | Apr 22 12:30 |
| schestowitz | Ravi passes around Mono poison: http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2009/04/gn... | Apr 22 12:33 |
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| schestowitz | ZDNet is giving a platform for pro-Microsoft spinner Jason Hiner now :-( It figures. | Apr 22 12:46 |
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| schestowitz | via Groklaw: "Carla Bruni Loves it When People Pirate Her Songs - It Generates Interest" < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxeXdJ1VhUY > | Apr 22 12:56 |
| schestowitz | Groklaw links to the Hines BS. HA! | Apr 22 12:58 |
| schestowitz | "In a brief letter about the deal, Oracle President Charles Phillips talks about the benefit of Oracle owning Java and Solaris, without a word about MySQL. Not the reassurance corporate MySQL users might be seeking." http://blogs.computerworld.com/or... | Apr 22 12:59 |
| schestowitz | "If I have anything to say about it, JRuby will remain 100% a community project, or I won't be at Oracle long." http://twitter.com/headius/st... | Apr 22 13:00 |
| schestowitz | "Michael 'Monty' Widenius left Sun and started his own community branch of MySQL, MariaDB." http://blogs.computerworld.com/the_five_... | Apr 22 13:02 |
| schestowitz | Who is Maria? His g/f? | Apr 22 13:02 |
| schestowitz | "Like it or not, we're in wait-and-see mode." - Tim Bray, Sun http://twitter.com/TimBray | Apr 22 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Forbes: Why Oracle Won't Kill MySQL < http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/20/mysql-m... > | Apr 22 13:04 |
| schestowitz | Google succeeds because it gives people what they want, not because it 'steals': http://newstimeline.googlelabs.com/ | Apr 22 13:06 |
| schestowitz | Philips has 121,398 employees. Probably the biggest pro-sw pats lobbyist... | Apr 22 13:14 |
| schestowitz | Fujitsu cuts contractor pay < http://www.channelregister.co.uk/... > | Apr 22 13:16 |
| schestowitz | Joseph Stiglitz: "The Big Banks aren't too big to fail. They are too big to manage." | Apr 22 13:16 |
| schestowitz | Oracle might sack about 10,000 (about 8% of workforce) soon: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.... | Apr 22 13:21 |
| schestowitz | More like 13% actually | Apr 22 13:21 |
| oiaohm_ | 10,000 would be mostly removing duplication. | Apr 22 13:27 |
| oiaohm_ | Add sun + oracle work force you have duplication lot of. | Apr 22 13:28 |
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| schestowitz | There're suggestion that FLOSS -- not just Linux -- is FAR more deployed than publicly reported | Apr 22 13:33 |
| schestowitz | I wonder just how much Oracle uses it except for as a platform. | Apr 22 13:34 |
| schestowitz | I heard that SAP uses ODF internally | Apr 22 13:34 |
| schestowitz | The OOo guy who moved there (Dancer/Erwin) showed it | Apr 22 13:34 |
| oiaohm_ | That is partly working with Oracle | Apr 22 13:35 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle prefers standards. | Apr 22 13:35 |
| oiaohm_ | Less problems in future of course. | Apr 22 13:36 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Bribes Russian to Take Schools Off GNU/Linux and Halt Antitrust Action? < http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2009/04/2... > | Apr 22 13:37 |
| oiaohm_ | How long before MS wakes up. | Apr 22 13:40 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: Aussies, Kiwis enter Google Summer of Code < http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/3... > | Apr 22 13:43 |
| schestowitz | Wake up to what? | Apr 22 13:43 |
| oiaohm_ | MS is still spending like they are rich. | Apr 22 13:44 |
| schestowitz | "Mark_Antony I think the FOSS 'Activity Map' understates the 'Industry' activity in UK - there are way more big companies moving than go public about it! [...] Mark_Antony I suspect the research is quite Red Hat centric and underestimates what's happening with Debian (and Ubuntu) which we use all the time..." | Apr 22 13:48 |
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| schestowitz | Re: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/ne... | Apr 22 13:48 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: Microsoft is dumping | Apr 22 13:48 |
| schestowitz | There's a difference | Apr 22 13:49 |
| schestowitz | They make not a buck if Linux gains | Apr 22 13:49 |
| schestowitz | So they try to just throw away their software that costs nothing to copy | Apr 22 13:49 |
| schestowitz | But they DEVALUE their products this way | Apr 22 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Very bad | Apr 22 13:49 |
| schestowitz | "Mark_Antony I suspect our rise in the 'Activity Map' in Government has been mainly helped by the Education moves by Becta, OGC, Jim Knight and so on." | Apr 22 13:49 |
| schestowitz | http://twitter.com/Mark_Antony... | Apr 22 13:50 |
| MinceR | http://tech.blorge.com/Structure... | Apr 22 13:53 |
| MinceR | lenovo is advertising for m$, apparently | Apr 22 13:53 |
| schestowitz | LENOVO IS mcirosoft | Apr 22 13:54 |
| schestowitz | Employees there | Apr 22 13:54 |
| schestowitz | This is Why Lenovo Sucks at Linux < http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009... > | Apr 22 13:54 |
| mib_6ek7xv mib_b68jbw mib_b8vme0 mib_cf3kln mib_ey0o48 mib_iruc5g mib_nhm138 mib_tggylu mib_vfvtjy MinceR | Apr 22 13:56 | |
| schestowitz | MinceR: I will do three quick posts aboout these issues | Apr 22 13:56 |
| oiaohm_ | http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/has-... Nice topic. Not what MS wants to hear. | Apr 22 13:58 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm_: I don't like the writer | Apr 22 13:59 |
| schestowitz | I have some kick-arse posts to make. Microsoft is really getting nasty now and it ought to be exposed | Apr 22 14:00 |
| schestowitz | This will be FUN!!11 | Apr 22 14:01 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft has recently been proxifying its smears against Linux. People fail to see the connections. | Apr 22 14:02 |
| oiaohm_ | schestowitz: I know you don't like the writer. | Apr 22 14:02 |
| oiaohm_ | But the writer says basically there is nothing MS can do about Open source. | Apr 22 14:02 |
| oiaohm_ | This is MS problem its game over. All they can do is slow the drop. | Apr 22 14:03 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: yes, I know | Apr 22 14:05 |
| schestowitz | They could sell hardware | Apr 22 14:05 |
| schestowitz | They tried and failed | Apr 22 14:05 |
| schestowitz | Where apply succeeded (they have no dependence on OEM faith and they have i[product]) | Apr 22 14:05 |
| schestowitz | Apple's business does not rely on OEMing (letting THEM sell h/w) and the iPhone/iPod biz makes cash | Apr 22 14:06 |
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| oiaohm_ | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Ga... My most liked css decoder source code. | Apr 22 14:07 |
| MinceR | nice | Apr 22 14:16 |
| oiaohm_ | One day I am going to put it on a cap. | Apr 22 14:18 |
| MinceR | seems to be missing the key though | Apr 22 14:20 |
| schestowitz | Will Tomorrow’s Ubuntu Release be Overshadowed by News of Microsoft Layoffs? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/22/n... > | Apr 22 14:20 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm_: nice! | Apr 22 14:21 |
| schestowitz | Visuals over readability | Apr 22 14:21 |
| oiaohm_ | No key MinceR its a css cracker. | Apr 22 14:21 |
| MinceR | it says "cat title-key scrambled.vob | efdtt >clear.vob" | Apr 22 14:22 |
| MinceR | isn't that a css key? | Apr 22 14:22 |
| MinceR | then again, i'm no content scrambling system expert. | Apr 22 14:22 |
| oiaohm_ | That right that the processor. | Apr 22 14:23 |
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| MinceR | i don't understand. | Apr 22 14:23 |
| oiaohm_ | The other half has to be on shirt too big for cap. | Apr 22 14:24 |
| oiaohm_ | They keys. | Apr 22 14:24 |
| oiaohm_ | the keys. | Apr 22 14:24 |
| MinceR | ic | Apr 22 14:24 |
| oiaohm_ | I get it once lag from large ish download stops. | Apr 22 14:25 |
| trmanco | wow | Apr 22 14:26 |
| trmanco | Spanish people read my blog | Apr 22 14:26 |
| oiaohm_ | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS... The other half. | Apr 22 14:28 |
| oiaohm_ | Who said code read ablity was important. | Apr 22 14:29 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm_: not in this case | Apr 22 14:41 |
| schestowitz | Any change breaks compatibility | Apr 22 14:41 |
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| schestowitz | I provide content to Microsoft's latest attack on Linux in Russia: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/2... | Apr 22 14:47 |
| trmanco | Botnet of 1.9 million infected PCs found: http://www.h-online.com/security/Botn... | Apr 22 15:04 |
| schestowitz | "having a field day over this" Any idiom like this? | Apr 22 15:05 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: there's more | Apr 22 15:05 |
| schestowitz | It's just some stupid pro-swpats firm | Apr 22 15:05 |
| schestowitz | IIRC Finjan | Apr 22 15:05 |
| schestowitz | Bunch of self-0serving clowns | Apr 22 15:05 |
| trmanco | time for Microsoft to get ââ¢Â» | Apr 22 15:05 |
| schestowitz | But they claim governments are affected too | Apr 22 15:05 |
| trmanco | he | Apr 22 15:06 |
| schestowitz | Finjan are related to MS ASAIK | Apr 22 15:06 |
| schestowitz | They also give small numbers | Apr 22 15:06 |
| schestowitz | The real numbers are FAR bigger | Apr 22 15:06 |
| trmanco | yeah, but still, they numbers are massive | Apr 22 15:15 |
| oiaohm_ | It would be interesting if all network filters got turned off. | Apr 22 15:16 |
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| trmanco | Firefox 3.0.9 targets 12 security vulnerabilities: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-102... ? | Apr 22 15:27 |
| trmanco | how come I only count 9? -> http://www.mozilla.org/security/known-vul... | Apr 22 15:28 |
| trmanco | and only 1 was critical, not 4 | Apr 22 15:29 |
| schestowitz | Lenovo is hostile towards Linux and Microsoft employees in it might be the cause: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/22/... | Apr 22 15:29 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: I read about 9 | Apr 22 15:30 |
| schestowitz | Maybe 9 patches for 12 holes? | Apr 22 15:30 |
| trmanco | no | Apr 22 15:30 |
| schestowitz | CNET...? | Apr 22 15:30 |
| trmanco | those 9 are security advisories | Apr 22 15:30 |
| trmanco | yes | Apr 22 15:30 |
| trmanco | each advisory is a hole AFAIK | Apr 22 15:30 |
| schestowitz | "Steven Musii" That's a new one to me | Apr 22 15:31 |
| schestowitz | "Before joining CNET News in 2000, Steven spent 10 years at various Bay Area newspapers. E-mail Steven. " | Apr 22 15:31 |
