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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 4th, 2009


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schestowitzCame out of nowhere from a  NOVELL employeeMay 04 00:00
taconewe'll see.May 04 00:00
schestowitzThey sacked him, so he ruins their crown jewelMay 04 00:00
schestowitzMoved to Fedora tooMay 04 00:00
schestowitzMaybe Red Hat will hire himMay 04 00:00
taconemaybe not.May 04 00:00
taconeproblem is, a port is never enough.May 04 00:00
taconebut let's wait. possibly a dev team will formMay 04 00:01
schestowitzWell, for starters...May 04 00:07
The_Mad_HatterYes, the Mono folks are nervous right now.May 04 00:07
schestowitzgnote is a good way to begin the coversation about the issues with MonoMay 04 00:07
taconethe real impact it can have is getting included in redhatMay 04 00:07
schestowitzPeople begin to engage in the debate they read aboutMay 04 00:07
schestowitzThey see arguments over MonoMay 04 00:07
taconeas red hat doesn't include mono apps by defaultMay 04 00:07
taconethat'd bring devs.May 04 00:07
schestowitzA lot of people never knew about the controversyMay 04 00:07
schestowitzNow they knowMay 04 00:07
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Balrog_schestowitz: still here?May 04 01:03
schestowitzYep, what's up?May 04 01:04
Balrog_some chinese site reposted the lwn articleMay 04 01:04
Balrog_it's pro-Tomboy, btwMay 04 01:05
Balrog_and attacks relicensing under GPL3May 04 01:05
Balrog_did you see the article?May 04 01:07
Balrog_<< schestowitzMay 04 01:07
schestowitzHe praised gnote for technical aspectsMay 04 01:08
Balrog_for the most part ...May 04 01:10
oiaohmInsults don't worry me.May 04 01:50
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oiaohmMono guys have been shocked by how fast it has taken for tomboy to loss traction.May 04 01:51
oiaohmschestowitz: just wondering what thread I was insulted on.May 04 01:52
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schestowitzJo'sMay 04 01:58
schestowitzmonkey siteMay 04 01:58
schestowitzgnMay 04 01:58
oiaohm  << This one schestowitzMay 04 02:00
oiaohmHe kinda walked straight into it.May 04 02:00
oiaohmFirst post was bate.May 04 02:00
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twitterSweeds strike back. 04 03:08
twitterGood for them.  All ISPs should be like that.May 04 03:08
twitterSnooping on email and web traffic does not solve crimes, it is itself a crime that enables other forms of oppression.May 04 03:10
twitterRMS blasts Apple May 2009 (DMCA to censor discussion)May 04 03:17
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twitter"Apple is as nasty and vicious as Microsoft, and people should think of it as an enemy."May 04 03:17
twitterThat's a powerful opinion.  I wonder if he knows just how bad M$ has been.May 04 03:17
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twitterWow, what a bunch of asses. 04 04:32
twitterAn energy industry lobby group ignored the advice of their own scientists in order to lie about climate change.May 04 04:33
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schestowitz 04 07:40
schestowitz 04 07:42
schestowitzMental monopolies watch: Consumers International IP Watch List Report 2009 < >May 04 07:45
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MinceRj0May 04 08:50
schestowitzSubject: [PATCH] Add CONFIG_MONO_NO_CREATE WITH_MS_PATENTS option < >May 04 08:58
schestowitzBased on my memory alone, this was said before it turned out that Miguel knows the man called LinuxHater: 04 09:11
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taconei loved linux hater as well in the pastMay 04 09:12
amarsh04gnote has been requested for inclusion in Debian (the submitter is a Debian developer for GRUB): 04 09:13
taconein a way i think it will be difficult not to include it in ubuntu if it makes it in debian desktop.May 04 09:13
taconethat sai, ubuntu has a handful of mono lovers.May 04 09:14
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taconereading last development i should call them mono activists. as they're actively pushing for mono because it's mono.May 04 09:16
taconealso schestowitz, pingMay 04 09:16
taconeschestowitz: call me prv when you get back.May 04 09:17
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schestowitzHey, tacone May 04 09:59
schestowitz Microsoft Fights to Make GNU/Linux a Fringe PhenomenonMay 04 10:00
taconeschestowitz: i wrote you in prv.May 04 10:00
schestowitzohMay 04 10:01
schestowitzyesMay 04 10:01
schestowitzTuxMachines cites it a lot tooMay 04 10:01
schestowitzNo blog posts while away..... 04 10:02
tacone?May 04 10:02
taconei have been in paris 2 weeks.May 04 10:03
taconeschestowitz: query me.May 04 10:03
schestowitzNo Internet in Paris? :-pMay 04 10:03
schestowitzQuery about what?May 04 10:04
taconenot that much. and no time.May 04 10:04
taconenothing, leave it alone.May 04 10:04
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amarsh04quite a lot of discussion on gnote in the page referenced by the URL I postedMay 04 10:09
iwmwdoes gnote break any patents and is it gpled?May 04 10:10
benJImanAlmost certainly violates patents, what software doesn't.May 04 10:11
schestowitzIt's gplv3May 04 10:13
schestowitzThe question is, WHOSE patents.May 04 10:13
schestowitzAlso, how valid would a claim be?May 04 10:14
schestowitzMono is a case of stepping right on MS' toes.May 04 10:14
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*benJIman giggles at boy calling linuxhater "an obscene anti-Linux blogger who flames GNU/Linux developers as well as recites and thus propagates old injurious myths." after trolling gnu/linux developers & promoting myths about c# in the same post.May 04 10:16
schestowitzRMS re Phorm: "The B'liar/Clown policy towards business is, "Give business as much as the people will let us get away with." This is typical of the governments serve as subalterns for the corporate empire."May 04 10:18
schestowitzThe Green Party's 100-Day Report Card 04 10:20
schestowitzFBI E-Mail Says Bush Authorized Abuse of Iraqis  < >May 04 10:21
schestowitzPolish pianist stops show with anti-US tirade < >May 04 10:25
schestowitzThe press is dying. WPP To Cut 7,200 Positions This Year; About Half Of Cuts Have Already Taken Place < >May 04 10:47
zoobab01Microsoft has denied that its recent dust-up with TomTom over nine patents relating to car navigation technology ended when the Dutch company agreed a financial settlement of less than $500,000. The claim was made by Keith Bergelt, CEO of the Open Invention Network during a presentation he was giving at the European Patent Forum in Prague. At the time the settlement was announced, the amount involved was kept confidential. However, in response to ..May 04 10:54
zoobab01 04 10:54
zoobab01 04 10:54
zoobab01you need a login to view the blogMay 04 10:54
zoobab01please blog about itMay 04 10:54
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Eruaran|alphatesA disgusting Microsoft proxy: www.consumerwatchdog.orgMay 04 11:34
Eruaran|alphatesA supposed consumer watchdog... search their site for "Microsoft" and what you get is a string of anti-Google articles. Microsoft, the Standard Oil of the IT world, gets only ever mentioned in a positive light.May 04 11:35
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Eruaran|alphatesSimply a pathetic and disgusting front.May 04 11:36
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schestowitzCan you find a site about them?May 04 12:01
schestowitzMaybe SourceWatch?May 04 12:01
iwmwBrazil bypasses patent on Merck AIDS drug: 04 12:01
schestowitz 04 12:02
schestowitz# Consumer Watchdog (USA), an organization which advocates for taxpayer and consumer interests in the United StatesMay 04 12:02
schestowitz"formerly the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights)"May 04 12:03
schestowitzSo they nymshiftMay 04 12:03
schestowitzThat's what companies that get expose doMay 04 12:03
schestowitzLike ATL=>ACTMay 04 12:03
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schestowitz"The group's mission statement says "Big Business has an endless amount of money and thousands of lobbyists working every day to protect and increase their profits - no matter who it hurts. We get in their way and work to protect and improve the lives of American consumers and taxpayers.""May 04 12:04
schestowitzYeah... like ACT 'helps small businesses'May 04 12:04
schestowitzBy legalising sw pats and working for OOXMLMay 04 12:04
oiaohmThere are a lot of MS funding FUD.May 04 12:05
schestowitz "It's Not Just Microsoft That's Balking At Google's Book Plans"May 04 12:05
schestowitzWho funds these people?May 04 12:05
schestowitzThere's also this: 04 12:07
schestowitzThe site runs Linux: 04 12:07
schestowitzLet's do whoisMay 04 12:07
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schestowitzDomain ID:D863261-LRORMay 04 12:09
schestowitzDomain Name:CONSUMERWATCHDOG.ORGMay 04 12:09
schestowitzCreated On:03-Jun-1997 04:00:00 UTCMay 04 12:09
schestowitzLast Updated On:07-Jun-2008 00:26:36 UTCMay 04 12:09
schestowitzExpiration Date:02-Jun-2010 04:00:00 UTCMay 04 12:09
schestowitzSponsoring, Inc. (R91-LROR)May 04 12:09
schestowitzStatus:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITEDMay 04 12:09
schestowitzStatus:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITEDMay 04 12:09
schestowitzStatus:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITEDMay 04 12:09
schestowitzStatus:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITEDMay 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant ID:GODA-044511122May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Name:Doug HellerMay 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Organization:Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer RigMay 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Street1:1750 Ocean Park Blvd.May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Street2:Ste 200May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Street3:May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant City:Santa MonicaMay 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant State/Province:CaliforniaMay 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Postal Code:90405May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Country:USMay 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Phone:+1.3103920522May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Phone Ext.:May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant FAX:May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant FAX Ext.:May 04 12:09
schestowitzRegistrant Email:webmaster@consumerwatchdog.orgMay 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin ID:GODA-244511122May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Name:Doug HellerMay 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Organization:Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer RigMay 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Street1:1750 Ocean Park Blvd.May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Street2:Ste 200May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Street3:May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin City:Santa MonicaMay 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin State/Province:CaliforniaMay 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Postal Code:90405May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Country:USMay 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Phone:+1.3103920522May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Phone Ext.:May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin FAX:May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin FAX Ext.:May 04 12:09
schestowitzAdmin Email:doug@consumerwatchdog.orgMay 04 12:09
schestowitzTech ID:GODA-144511122May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Name:Domain DirectMay 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Inc.May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Street1:96 Mowat AvenueMay 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Street2:May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Street3:May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech City:TorontoMay 04 12:09
schestowitzTech State/Province:OntarioMay 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Postal Code:M6K3M1May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Country:CAMay 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Phone:+1.4165350123May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Phone Ext.:May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech FAX:+1.4165315584May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech FAX Ext.:May 04 12:09
schestowitzTech Email:dnstech@domaindirect.comMay 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server:NS1.GRASSROOTS.COMMay 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server:NS2.GRASSROOTS.COMMay 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitzName Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz=========May 04 12:10
schestowitzName Server:NS1.GRASSROOTS.COMMay 04 12:10
schestowitzGrassroots?May 04 12:10
schestowitz "Doug and his partners sold the company to Seattle-based Apex Learning, a company founded by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen." I think it's a different guy with the same name thoughMay 04 12:11
oiaohm  Step back one.   schestowitz.  Its another site run by PR for higher.May 04 12:11
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schestowitz "Interview on Corporate Crime with Doug Heller - Consumer Advocate with FTCR"May 04 12:12
oiaohmAt Grassroots Enterprise, we combine the best of cutting-edge Internet technology with tried and true communications strategies to build movements that make an impact.May 04 12:12
schestowitzThey say MS beats Google on privacy. They haven't tried Vista, have they?? :-)May 04 12:12
oiaohmThe complete website is built by Grassroots.May 04 12:12
oiaohmAlso DNS hosted by them.May 04 12:13
schestowitzSo it's a PR?May 04 12:13
schestowitzBut are they doing this for clients?May 04 12:13
oiaohmClients is still who.May 04 12:13
schestowitz 04 12:13
schestowitzThis is a good source for the PR industryMay 04 12:13
schestowitzLet's see.....May 04 12:13
schestowitz"combines online technology and communications strategy to help our clients achieve their public affairs objectives. Our proprietary technology Grassroots Multiplier€® uses the Internet to centralize and simplify the recruitment, management, and mobilization of our clients' supporters - employees, members, customers, vendors and other stakeholders who can grow into a long-term asset to our clients' business." May 04 12:14
schestowitzOur CLIENTS???May 04 12:14
schestowitz    * Arvind Rajan, ChairmanMay 04 12:14
schestowitz    * John Hlinko, CEOMay 04 12:14
schestowitz    * David S. Chiu, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Co-founderMay 04 12:14
schestowitz    * Robert Florian, Executive Vice President, EngineeringMay 04 12:14
schestowitz    * Bill McIntyre Executive Vice PresidentMay 04 12:14
schestowitz    * Kevin McCann, Executive Vice President, Client ServicesMay 04 12:14
schestowitz    * Mike Panetta, Vice President, Public Affairs and Emerging MediaMay 04 12:14
schestowitz    * Kevin O'Neill, Managing Director May 04 12:14
oiaohm  << They are one of the nastier PR companies you can get.May 04 12:16
oiaohmYep spam hibrid with telemarketing hibrid with internet.May 04 12:18
schestowitzHeh.May 04 12:23
schestowitzEruaran: I'll post about it l8erMay 04 12:23
oiaohm   I like how they say formally this other name even that they are still running website under the other name.May 04 12:25
oiaohmPR games are PR games.   There are a lot groups pushing there own ends.May 04 12:27
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schestowitzHehe.May 04 13:29
schestowitzLet's do a quick postMay 04 13:29
Eruaran|alphatessorry i was afkMay 04 13:40
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schestowitz - Did Microsoft Hire Consumer Watchdog to Attack Google?May 04 14:25
oiaohmThere is a huge world of PR bending items.May 04 14:40
oiaohm  You really should have read who the vice president of grassroots.comMay 04 14:43
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oiaohmThis PR game goes all the way to the USA white house.May 04 14:48
schestowitzyeah, politics are a related mess: 04 15:05
schestowitzCan't ignore politics when dealing with IT lobbiesMay 04 15:05
oiaohmEnough digging will find USA politics locked up in lot of grassroot stuff.May 04 15:06
oiaohmEven worse parties having different people support incompadible ideas to get donations.May 04 15:06
oiaohmUSA political system is basically screwed.May 04 15:07
iwmwusa political system was basicually screwed all the timeMay 04 15:09
oiaohmProblem is the usa political system screwed ripples out and effects other things.May 04 15:16
schestowitzWorldwideMay 04 15:17
schestowitzSee regulation of banks for instanceMay 04 15:17
schestowitzIf you watch the analysis you will see the deregulation was lobbies forMay 04 15:17
schestowitzIIRC for sub-prime alsoMay 04 15:17
schestowitzA system that is policed by those whom it's supposed to guard will entangle itself in corruptionMay 04 15:17
schestowitzObama is Bush's successor in that regard. Industry said taxpayers should suffer even more by paying to buy companies more timeMay 04 15:18
schestowitzAnd guess what Obama did? You always know. I think they renamed 'bailout' "stimulus". It's another art of nymshiftsMay 04 15:18
schestowitzPeople resisted the bailoutMay 04 15:18
schestowitzHistorians will be confused by the diversity of termsMay 04 15:19
schestowitzSo the stimulus was a second go under a different headingMay 04 15:19
schestowitzLike "harmonisation" in the EUMay 04 15:19
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schestowitz"Superdelegates"....May 04 15:40
schestowitzAs some say, the election in the US is essentially run by the PR industry. It's like a contest for these.May 04 15:40
iwmwthe election in us is just a theatre with stand-alone jurys that set scores that they want to seeMay 04 15:42
iwmwaka real rulers of US :))May 04 15:43
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schestowitz "Mono is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches."May 04 16:06
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schestowitz (IT&T joins other sectors in jobs death spiral)May 04 16:49
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mib_mqudvkhi.  is anyone one now?May 04 16:53
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schestowitzHeyMay 04 16:57
mib_8wo4qbheyMay 04 16:57
schestowitzI see you reentered. Didn't notice you comingMay 04 16:57
schestowitzNetwork connectivity issues here todayMay 04 16:57
mib_8wo4qbThis is Will.  Got some ODF news for youMay 04 16:57
schestowitzSo MS' 'support' for ODF turns out to be a scamMay 04 16:58
schestowitzI saw Rob's blogMay 04 16:58
schestowitzI probably should write about it now, not later, right?May 04 16:58
mib_8wo4qbHow did you know?  ;)May 04 16:58
schestowitzmib_8wo4qb: I saw the twitMay 04 16:58
mib_8wo4qbGroklaw has some stuff on it tooMay 04 16:58
mib_8wo4qb 04 16:58
schestowitz"harishpillayRT: @cappellathx: is not surprised MS Office 2007 SP2 ODF support screws up big time. "May 04 16:58
*schestowitz looksMay 04 16:59
mib_8wo4qbGranted, the plural of "anecdote" is not necessarily "data", but I'm not surprised about thisMay 04 16:59
mib_8wo4qbI expect more of these reports to start showing upMay 04 16:59
schestowitzYes, me tooMay 04 17:03
schestowitzI suppose I won't need to hurry muchMay 04 17:04
schestowitzPeople already see this 'news' (expccted) in many placesMay 04 17:04
schestowitzI'll collect some more evidenceMay 04 17:04
schestowitzIt's clear what Microsoft achieves by thisMay 04 17:04
mib_8wo4qbOf course. "See. ODF is broken, so use OOXML instead."May 04 17:05
mib_8wo4qbThe question is, are they doing this in a way that leaves them open for another EU investigation?May 04 17:06
mib_8wo4qbOr, instead of my first "quote", maybe "Hey! Look! We support ODF too (kind of), so you can keep buying MS Office!"May 04 17:08
schestowitzYesMay 04 17:08
schestowitzIt's a bit of bothMay 04 17:08
schestowitzASAP putting some "ODF" labelMay 04 17:09
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schestowitzmib_8wo4qb: do you read Groklaw?May 04 17:10
schestowitzI'd like to know if Jesper/Alex/Doug or another one from the Microsoft anti-ODF cartel shows up in the comments on Weir's analysisMay 04 17:11
mib_8wo4qbsemi-regularly.  More often when something is going on in the news (Like the TomTom case), less often when things seem to be quiet.May 04 17:11
mib_8wo4qbI don't usually read much in the comments.  Mostly just the news and analysis.  But PJ also does a good job of keeping the trolls out.May 04 17:13
schestowitzBy ignoring?May 04 17:15
schestowitzOr does she still delete and toss out?May 04 17:15
schestowitzCause I believe this to be a defeatist approachMay 04 17:15
schestowitzLike censorshipMay 04 17:15
schestowitzWoo...May 04 17:16
schestowitzMore MS layoffsMay 04 17:16
schestowitzI guess, "yay"May 04 17:16
schestowitzLet me post about it to raise morale of BN readersMay 04 17:17
mib_8wo4qbWell, ok, she still deletes and toss out.  Though I rarely if ever run into troll posts there.  Don't know if that means mostly diligent deletion or self-selecting readership.May 04 17:18
*schestowitz runs out of free pictures of sinking shipsMay 04 17:22
mib_8wo4qbwell, gotta go for now.  Looking forward to the ODF post, but yeah, take your time and get as much evidence as you can.May 04 17:26
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schestowitzA reliable source says that Microsoft will announce more layoffs tomorrow: 04 17:35
schestowitzJust got this: "Dear Roy Schestowitz, Starting later this month, the MATLAB Central File Exchange will adopt the well-known and widely used open-source BSD License as the standard license for posted content. As a File Exchange contributor, you are receiving notice of this new policy in advance of its implementation. No action is required now. We'll contact you again when a FAQ list is available and you are able to update your existMay 04 17:45
schestowitzing files. "May 04 17:45
schestowitzMe?????? BSD?????? Wot wot wot??May 04 17:45
schestowitzJust got this: "Tax saving lobbying via Obama" -- Obama seeks tax changes for U.S. firms overseas < >May 04 17:47
liberviscohmmMay 04 17:47
schestowitzThat charming OBAMAA. He takes from the poor and he... or wait.. I lost my train of thought.May 04 17:48
liberviscoyeahMay 04 17:49
MinceRhe takes money from the rich and poor and gives control to the rich.May 04 17:49
MinceR(certain rich, that is.)May 04 17:49
schestowitz"Hey, John Sixpack, how 'bout ya gives me your tax for the next ten years so I can secure the bonus of GM's CEO?"May 04 17:49
MinceR:)May 04 17:49
liberviscoI was reading that article about Banshee getting into Ubuntu, then following some links etc.. and..May 04 17:49
schestowitzIt's not there yet, but they lobby for itMay 04 17:50
schestowitzThe Mono fans are breathing down Ubuntu's neck because it's their best injection vector (most users)May 04 17:50
liberviscowell, I actually tried Vista recently, and dual boot XP, I'm not a FOSS purist anymore, but I think the battle you're in is really against corporatism and a lot of what you say makes sense in that wayMay 04 17:50
schestowitzIt's hopeless if you raise the issue in Brainstorm or a bug report or even the forums. The Mono guards show up and attack the message/messengerMay 04 17:51
libervisco:SMay 04 17:51
schestowitzlibervisco: if it's not for Freedom, what else?May 04 17:51
schestowitzMac fans are pathetic in a wayMay 04 17:51
schestowitzThey just promote one multi-billion company over anotherMay 04 17:51
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schestowitzCompanies like that already spend billions on that (paying PR people). THey don't need volunteersMay 04 17:52
vida18Update on ODF Spreadsheet Interoperability.May 04 17:52
vida18 04 17:52
schestowitzGoblin has just cause another Turfer: 04 17:52
schestowitzvida18: yes, I saw thatMay 04 17:53
schestowitzI still accumulate stuff about it. It's already out there, so we need a unique angleMay 04 17:53
liberviscoschestowitz, it's about freedom, yeah, but not necessarily as defined by RMS.. well, to stop beating around the bush, for me freedom is freedom from coercion, which means freedom from government and by extension freedom from corporatismMay 04 17:53
schestowitzyesMay 04 17:54
schestowitzRMS is just one in manyMay 04 17:54
schestowitzTomorrow could be a happy day for FreedomMay 04 17:54
schestowitzMicrosoft layoffsMay 04 17:54
liberviscoso any company that uses legal threats (like patents).. isn't really likable to me..May 04 17:54
schestowitzmaybe another 5000 to be let go. Who knows...May 04 17:54
schestowitzlibervisco: RMS looks beyond softwareMay 04 17:54
liberviscowell.. those are still just employees..May 04 17:54
schestowitzi don't know how long he has done that for.May 04 17:54
schestowitzlibervisco: yes, and they can work for an ethical companyMay 04 17:54
schestowitzThere's no lack for jobsMay 04 17:55
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liberviscoI don't know about that :SMay 04 17:55
schestowitzAny barrier as such is caused by cultureMay 04 17:55
schestowitzMany people won't work as farmersMay 04 17:55
schestowitzit's inconveivable to themMay 04 17:55
liberviscoI wont either and I don't think they shouldMay 04 17:55
schestowitzRMS gets the stares when people are told that doing gardening is best than oppressive tools like PhormMay 04 17:55
MinceRi won't eitherMay 04 17:55
liberviscoI think the problem is far more fundamental than any of these employees.. nowadays not even you and I can live a civil life without depending *to some extent* on the products of corporatism..May 04 17:56
schestowitzYes, modern life is like thatMay 04 17:56
schestowitzEven energy is like thatMay 04 17:56
liberviscothe issue isn't us so much as it's the fact we're not being given much choiceMay 04 17:56
schestowitzSo when you take a shower you depend on the oil giantsMay 04 17:56
libervisco*usMay 04 17:56
liberviscoright..May 04 17:57
schestowitzIt's an unwinnable battleMay 04 17:57
schestowitzBut you have regularisersMay 04 17:57
liberviscoit's not :)May 04 17:57
liberviscoyou just have to know where to strikeMay 04 17:57
schestowitzWithout them, you have things like slavery and cannibalism and who knows what else.May 04 17:57
liberviscoyou chose MS and their particular fascist (corporatist) links..May 04 17:58
schestowitzHuman kind advanced by banning all sorts of things including tortureMay 04 17:58
liberviscobut I'm gonna go even furtherMay 04 17:58
schestowitzNow that the US public is apathetic, US tortture make a comebackMay 04 17:58
liberviscoyeahMay 04 17:58
schestowitzThere are many other areasMay 04 17:58
schestowitzLike environmentMay 04 17:58
schestowitzTechies and geeks rarely look into itMay 04 17:59
liberviscoI'm gonna strike the concept of government and politics as a whole. My goal is to eradicate it completely in this century.May 04 18:00
schestowitzYes, a form of anarchismMay 04 18:01
liberviscothat's called striking the root, with it the cause of corporatism, environmentalist problems and most other things is downMay 04 18:01
schestowitzWhich some people conveniently confuse with other stuffMay 04 18:01
schestowitzMinceR is an anarchistMay 04 18:01
liberviscomarket anarchist?May 04 18:01
schestowitzPaternal authorities might workMay 04 18:01
schestowitzSome people think of anarchist as being not intellectuals but nutcases that mass-murdered people.May 04 18:02
liberviscooh I know :SMay 04 18:02
liberviscothat's why I use the term "anarchist" sparsely and tend to use "voluntaryist" insteadMay 04 18:03
libervisco 04 18:03
liberviscoin truth the only ones who ever mass murdered people were members of the government.. the latest example being the current US president.. 04 18:05
liberviscothe trouble is that the system of government is completely based on mutually outsourced responsibility so nobody actually feels responsible for those crimes.. from soldiers and cops "just following orders" to the president "just doing what he's elected to do" to the electorate "just choosing the lesser evil"..May 04 18:07
liberviscoeveryone plays the same bloody gameMay 04 18:07
liberviscoincluding corporations who "just maximize shareholder value"...May 04 18:07
liberviscoor even "serve the nation's economy"May 04 18:08
schestowitzWhy Users Aren't Moving to Linux <,10... >May 04 18:11
*schestowitz looks at 04 18:11
schestowitzIt's not OBAMAA BTWMay 04 18:11
schestowitzI haven't looked yetMay 04 18:11
schestowitzHe's like the PR personMay 04 18:11
liberviscowell technically it's nobody due to outsourced responsibility, nobody can be blamed entirelyMay 04 18:13
schestowitzI though over a million were killed or misplaced in IraqMay 04 18:14
libervisconot sure..May 04 18:15
schestowitzI agree with you for simple reasonsMay 04 18:15
schestowitzA long time ago it was realised that mortal issues are more important than just 'fair competition'May 04 18:15
schestowitzBut that's a very big gameMay 04 18:15
schestowitzMany people involve and money weighed in trillions, not billionsMay 04 18:16
schestowitzIt's also more scary for an activistMay 04 18:16
schestowitzSurveillance, life threats and all that. In IT you argue with engineers; with this 'other' thing you deal with soldiers, racists, and people who watch Fox 'News' :-DMay 04 18:17
liberviscoeh rightMay 04 18:17
liberviscoI just think all these realms are on some fundamental level connected.. Both IT and other worlds exist in a market and this market's functioning is completely disrupted by legalized coercion and violenceMay 04 18:19
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liberviscoso whenever you see a moral issue chances are part of the cause is institutionalized violenceMay 04 18:20
liberviscopatents are a clear cut exampleMay 04 18:20
liberviscothe institution of a "corporation" is anotherMay 04 18:20
liberviscocorporation isn't a person nor a group of persons, it's an imagined entity... and it has no soulMay 04 18:21
schestowitzI never heard of the notion of "institutionalized violence"May 04 18:21
liberviscogovernment is institutionalized violenceMay 04 18:21
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schestowitzEither way, to me it's the fun of exposing stuff I see.May 04 18:21
liberviscobecause it has a monopoly on violence that people believe inMay 04 18:21
schestowitzWhether it changes much, who cares?May 04 18:21
liberviscoChanges?May 04 18:21
schestowitzIt's the big broadcasters with millions of viewers that weird power.May 04 18:22
liberviscothey just share in the powerMay 04 18:22
schestowitzIf Fox shows an Arab he always carries a Stinger or something. That war propaganda channel isn't even concealing what it doesMay 04 18:22
liberviscotbh I think who exactly wields power is less important than the fact that people support anybody but themselves wielding power over themselves..May 04 18:22
liberviscono matter who it is, broadcasters, presidents, bankers elites or reptiles, if people didn't SUBMIT, no such power would be possible to maintainMay 04 18:23
schestowitzIt's comforting to someMay 04 18:23
schestowitzBeing told what to doMay 04 18:23
schestowitzLike blindly taking ordersMay 04 18:23
liberviscounfortunatelyMay 04 18:23
schestowitzSome people are the opposite of youMay 04 18:23
liberviscobut that too has a cause :)May 04 18:23
liberviscoa very very specific one :)May 04 18:23
schestowitzThey flunked schools, they lost g/fs and now they just run to 'friends' in the armyMay 04 18:23
schestowitzA lot of people in the army started up this wayMay 04 18:24
liberviscorightMay 04 18:24
liberviscoindeed!May 04 18:24
liberviscoAnd why did they lose so much?May 04 18:24
schestowitzIn places where it's mandatory there's brainwash and peer pressuireMay 04 18:24
liberviscoWhy are they unhappy?May 04 18:24
schestowitzPeople who won't serve get vilified and aliennated (they are taught to do this) and those who do the 'Rambo job' are hailed as heroesMay 04 18:24
liberviscoI'd say they weren't allowed to flourish as individuals.. from the cradle onwards.. most parents still tyrannize kids..May 04 18:25
liberviscoright!May 04 18:25
liberviscoso what's the solution then?May 04 18:25
schestowitzI don't knowMay 04 18:25
schestowitzI think there's noneMay 04 18:25
schestowitzIt has been the same for agesMay 04 18:25
liberviscoI do, it's just not easy :)May 04 18:25
schestowitzEven the Raman Empire still existsMay 04 18:25
schestowitzIt's mostly the Usian Army and its alliesMay 04 18:25
schestowitzNow we have China rising with financial muscle over the US. It is also a dictatorshipMay 04 18:26
liberviscoThe solution is to tell people to stop believing in violence and controlling each other, but not just to tell them to stop.. but lure them by asking if they want to rid themselves of imposed obligations they don't likeMay 04 18:26
schestowitzSounds like a church jobMay 04 18:26
schestowitz"Glory glory hallelujah"May 04 18:26
liberviscoand then when they pay some attention, tell them WHY and HOW it's possible to have a civil society without violence (coercion, government)May 04 18:26
libervisconahMay 04 18:26
schestowitzPastors do this in the opposite directionMay 04 18:26
schestowitzJunk food theoriesMay 04 18:26
liberviscoPastors are part of the problemMay 04 18:27
schestowitzWhy read a boom about evolution/May 04 18:27
schestowitzJust pick lazy people and feed them miraclesMay 04 18:27
liberviscoReligion is a big part of the problem, superstition is the VERY reason people believe in violenceMay 04 18:27
liberviscowe need science, moral scienceMay 04 18:27
schestowitzAnother person take pride in a gun and military mightMay 04 18:27
schestowitzWe're like stupid, stupid moneysMay 04 18:27
schestowitzMonkeys haven't figured out how to be equally destructive :-)May 04 18:27
schestowitzNot just among our specicies but the whole planetMay 04 18:28
liberviscoAnyway, I'll link you to the site where I'll do my part. Maybe it'll shed some of your cynism :PMay 04 18:28
liberviscoI'll prove to you just what is possible :)May 04 18:28
schestowitzHehe.May 04 18:28
liberviscomeanwhile a good recommendation is FreedomainRadio.comMay 04 18:28
liberviscoIt'll blow your freaking mind :PMay 04 18:28
schestowitzWell, being cynical and some would say... well, not nihilist, but... I guess we just ought to do something we like and doesn't hurt othersMay 04 18:29
schestowitzNobody changes much anywayMay 04 18:29
schestowitzBut some people work jobs they hate to buts*it they don't needMay 04 18:29
schestowitzWage slaveryMay 04 18:29
liberviscoa problem with a solution as wellMay 04 18:29
schestowitzI found some good channels in YouTube alsoMay 04 18:30
schestowitz(Yes, I know, it's Flash)May 04 18:30
liberviscoand about people not changing, it's a myth, I changed.. people change slowly all the time.. change is more of a constant than stagnationMay 04 18:30
liberviscothe direction is what countsMay 04 18:30
*schestowitz bookmarkrs FreedomainMay 04 18:30
libervisco:)May 04 18:30
schestowitzComplacency comes laterMay 04 18:30
schestowitzLike, when people are imprisoned by what people from UIpAbove{Tm} call ReaLife{tm}May 04 18:31
schestowitzThe LifeTreadmillMay 04 18:31
schestowitzI should point you to a good talk from Guy KawasakiMay 04 18:31
schestowitz 04 18:32
trmancohelloMay 04 18:34
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schestowitzHas hub been in contact with anyone who is against Novell?May 04 18:35
schestowitz[other than sam varghese]May 04 18:35
*schestowitz looks out the window as it raining again in Bank HolidayMay 04 18:36
liberviscoschestowitz, some good advice in that talk.. except 10 since that can actually be quite counter-joyousMay 04 18:39
liberviscoschestowitz, btw, if you don't like using flash I can recommend miro, you can subscribe to youtube channels (and other video sites, even searches) and download videos directly and view them in it :)May 04 18:44
liberviscounless you're already using it of course :)May 04 18:45
schestowitzI doMay 04 18:45
schestowitzMandriva comes with itMay 04 18:45
liberviscocoolMay 04 18:45
schestowitzBut as a 'distributor' I use OggMay 04 18:46
schestowitzFirefox will help some moreeMay 04 18:46
liberviscorightMay 04 18:46
Balrog_schestowitz: what do you use to mirror web sites?May 04 18:52
schestowitzwgetMay 04 18:54
Balrog_ok ... someone wrote a script that uses wget to mirror a web site, then compresses it with rar ... rar is proprietary but I'm sure that it could be replaced with something else at the expense some compression featuresMay 04 18:56
schestowitzPatent on how to do you taxes: 04 18:56
schestowitzPay a tax for a method on doing your taxMay 04 18:57
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schestowitzMandriva 2009.1 “Spring” is Stunning < > That's my favourite distro right now.May 04 19:02
Balrog_"IBM Doubles Rewards For Ditching Sun" <>May 04 19:03
schestowitz"So there you have it, Mandriva 2009.1 is an amazing release. It has everything that Kubuntu lacks in a KDE distro. Kubuntu has always been my favorite distribution, yet a release as good as this one may convince me to make the switch."May 04 19:04
schestowitz"To put it more simply, Mandriva 2009.1 is probably the best KDE-based distribution I have seen so far this year, and it’s everything that Kubuntu should have been. I definitely recommend anyone reading this to give Mandriva a shot. Hopefully you’ll find it as wonderful as I do."May 04 19:04
schestowitzGood for Linux and IBM, I gues.sMay 04 19:05
Balrog_but bad for SPARC, which is a decent platformMay 04 19:05
trmancoschestowitz, do you have a mirror for this?May 04 19:18
schestowitztrmanco: yesMay 04 19:21
schestowitz"Nobody has to tell me what I really want is never gonna happen. But how close can we come? Tell me, dear Reader: What is being developed to make life on Linux beautiful without" 04 19:22
schestowitzThe MS shills try to depress Linux users, still.May 04 19:25
schestowitzOverview of Ubuntu in the Highstreet < >May 04 19:25
bgtr4m$ is depressingMay 04 19:25
bgtr4even for windows usersMay 04 19:25
bgtr4but they seem addictedMay 04 19:26
trmancoschestowitz, can I see it?May 04 19:26
schestowitzMaybe I'd be depressed if I used WindowsMay 04 19:35
schestowitzWhen you know Microsoft's life you're more upliftedMay 04 19:36
schestowitzYou just need to know the spins :-)May 04 19:36
schestowitzExplaining it becomes easier when you amass work and many pertinent examples that show your point (external refs)May 04 19:36
schestowitzSince Microsoft's GMs are asking about BN, we're on the right topicMay 04 19:37
schestowitzThe following two pages receive many visits today because of Net Applications' FUD: 04 19:38
schestowitzThe AstroTurf just mailedMay 04 19:48
schestowitzmeMay 04 19:48
schestowitzThe anti-Google oneMay 04 19:48
schestowitzThey do damage control when exposedMay 04 19:48
trmancois there anyway I can read the email?May 04 19:50
trmancocan you fwd it to me :-PMay 04 19:50
schestowitz 04 19:57
schestowitzI'm having a little fun with itMay 04 19:57
schestowitzit's not E-mailMay 04 19:58
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schestowitzIt's shill-mailMay 04 19:58
schestowitzRoy -May 04 19:58
schestowitzNot sure if you saw our comment on your blog about Consumer Watchdog’s work on Google. (I noticed it when it showed up, of course, in a Google Alert!) In case you didn’t see the comment, is just our web host.  We’re no more affiliated with them than we’re affiliated with our ISP and phone company.   May 04 19:58
schestowitzAs you will see from the reporting on our battle with Google, it is funded with a grant from the privacy rights oriented Rose Foundation, based in California.  At one point, Google sent a nasty letter to that charitable foundation trying to defund us. Here’s a rundown on that from my colleague: .May 04 19:58
schestowitzAnyway, I just want to make sure that, if in fact you are coming at this independently, you take a minute to review our work at before you jump to any further conclusions based on the fact that we chose Grassroots rather than Convio — which was the other hosting company pitching their servers to nonprofits when we were looking — to host our site.May 04 19:58
schestowitzSincerely,May 04 19:58
schestowitzDougMay 04 19:58
schestowitz--May 04 19:58
schestowitzDouglas HellerMay 04 19:58
schestowitzExecutive DirectorMay 04 19:58
schestowitzConsumer WatchdogMay 04 19:58
schestowitzformerly The Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer RightsMay 04 19:58
schestowitz310-392-0522 ext. 309May 04 19:58
schestowitz May 04 19:58
schestowitzBrilliant. Canonical is using Oxygen (KDE4) icons in its GTK/GNOME desktop: 04 20:03
trmancohmm, okMay 04 20:04
MinceRwhat's wrong with that?May 04 20:05
trmancointerestingMay 04 20:07
schestowitzCingular Wireless Refutes Lawsuit Filed By the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights 04 20:07
schestowitzHe tactlessly told me that Google did complain about themMay 04 20:07
schestowitzThis means that even a company with lawyers reached the conclusion that there was harassment. I don't think it's public knowledge.May 04 20:07
schestowitzMaybe they just use Google to make big headlinesMay 04 20:07
schestowitzAlex Zaharov-Reutt took his FUD and shilling for Microsoft elsewhere: 04 20:09
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gnutzLol..."we've got the ability to work better on older hardware".May 04 20:11
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gnutz...maybe as of 7's release date.May 04 20:11
schestowitzIt's Microsoft marketing peopleMay 04 20:12
schestowitzLike the Gartenberg shill today: 04 20:12
schestowitzPeople don't know who's whoMay 04 20:12
schestowitzThey seem not to know that these are Microsoft shills who pubnlished anti-Linux articlesMay 04 20:12
schestowitzPeople who claimed Zune to be a success back in the days.May 04 20:12
gnutzThey literally couldn't give those things away.  I think I remember reading about MS supplying developers with copies of XP with which to use their Zunes; both ended up on eBay.May 04 20:16
schestowitzDoes that count as two sales?May 04 20:23
schestowitz:-)May 04 20:23
MinceRobviouslyMay 04 20:23
gnutzIIRC they were conference freebies.May 04 20:23
schestowitzMicrosoft loves multi-dipping. Countering one sale as many... done that with Vista. Another method is channel-stuffing, which it did aggressively in Zune's case and got busted.May 04 20:24
MinceRthen they count as sales for $0May 04 20:24
schestowitzI have some good posts to doMay 04 20:24
schestowitzPatheticSoftMay 04 20:24
schestowitzI'll try to finish them before MS announced more layoffsMay 04 20:24
schestowitzCause then I need to go outMay 04 20:24
schestowitz(to get popcorn)May 04 20:24
gnutzlater.May 04 20:25
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schestowitzNow public: Oracle: SELECT * FROM Sun < >May 04 20:32
MinceRselect * from sun into oracle;May 04 20:33
trmancoheheMay 04 20:34
trmancoeasy language sql :-PMay 04 20:34
trmancoit's very straight forwardMay 04 20:34
trmancoESP launches A Wiki for Anti-Software Patent Campaigns: 04 20:35
MinceRsql is only easy for trivial queriesMay 04 20:43
MinceRits powerless and braindead nature become quite apparent when you try anything nontrivialMay 04 20:43
trmancoStudy says silent updates enhance security: 04 20:45
trmancoyeah, thats trueMay 04 20:45
schestowitzJustice Scalia's Dossier: Interesting Issues about Privacy and Ethics < >May 04 21:02
schestowitztrmanco: point is......?May 04 21:05
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schestowitzIntel's Grove: Something foul in Silicon Valley < > They make him look like a monkey :-)May 04 21:16
Balrog_schestowitz: what documents should I show people who are skeptical about MS doing what they really do? your site would be like 'shock therapy' which would not be good at firstMay 04 21:18
Balrog_then when I say these things (like 'Effective Evangelism') they call it FUDMay 04 21:21
Balrog_schestowitz: what to do?May 04 21:21
trmanco Nice article, this might have already been posted hereMay 04 21:22
Balrog_trmanco: any ideas?May 04 21:22
trmancoschestowitz, can you extract that lwn article and email it to me?May 04 21:22
Balrog_trmanco: one sec.May 04 21:23
trmancoBalrog_, microsoft wants to try and shape ODF, the same thing they tried to do with the internetsMay 04 21:23
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Balrog_sure, I knowMay 04 21:24
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schestowitz 04 21:26
schestowitzbrb phoneMay 04 21:26
trmancogreat articleMay 04 21:28
trmancoagain -> 04 21:33
schestowitzBalrog_: use the ECIS documentMay 04 21:36
schestowitzIt's very recent and conciseMay 04 21:36
schestowitzBoycottNovell has a hostile site name (not my choice)May 04 21:36
Balrog_yes ... but they've seen the ecis document and say it goes overboard on some pointsMay 04 21:37
schestowitzWhich points?May 04 21:39
schestowitzMSO2007: the IE6 of the WWWMay 04 21:41
schestowitz*of the documents world (ODF)May 04 21:41
trmancotime to call that office odf implementation MS-ODFMay 04 21:41
trmancocause of direct ODF implementation and compatibility is has less then 10%May 04 21:42
schestowitzThe shulls are losing itMay 04 21:42
schestowitzThe E-mails go hostile.May 04 21:42
schestowitzYour blog on Consumer WatchdogMay 04 21:42
schestowitzRoy (and please forward to your colleague Shane) -May 04 21:42
schestowitzPlease feel free to contact me, if you are serious about your rants.  I’m not going to publicly attack your credibility by pointing out that you sell ad space to Google on your personal blogs.  But I suspect, that’s far more compromising than who we pay to serve our website.  As a consumer advocacy nonprofit for nearly 25 years, we know that our resources are better spent taking on crooked corporations and corrupt politicians tMay 04 21:42
schestowitzhan spent on an array of servers and building webpage templates for what our library of about 10,000 webpages.  (That’s not our skill set or mission.)  May 04 21:42
schestowitzAs apparently savvy computer guys who also seem to be in the nonprofit sector, the fact that you don’t get this makes me question whether or not there’s some other motivation.  Today’s project for me is fighting off an insurance industry attempt to deregulate auto and homeowners insurance rates, so I’m getting back to that.  If you want to talk about Google or our webserver, feel free to give me a call.May 04 21:42
schestowitzDougMay 04 21:42
schestowitz--May 04 21:42
schestowitzDouglas HellerMay 04 21:42
schestowitzExecutive DirectorMay 04 21:42
schestowitzConsumer WatchdogMay 04 21:42
schestowitzformerly The Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer RightsMay 04 21:42
schestowitz310-392-0522 ext. 309May 04 21:42
schestowitz May 04 21:42
schestowitz=======May 04 21:43
schestowitzSee Shane's latest commentMay 04 21:43
schestowitzThey are being exposed BIG TIME.May 04 21:43
Balrog_stuff about IE and WMP mostlyMay 04 21:43
trmancohe attacks googleMay 04 21:45
trmancoI seeMay 04 21:45
trmancoeven more proofMay 04 21:45
schestowitzNo worriesMay 04 21:45
schestowitzThey'll just need to change name (again)May 04 21:45
schestowitzOr risk getting no customers/funding because they are always OWNED (exposeD)May 04 21:46
schestowitzLike ATLMay 04 21:46
schestowitzI'll do some COLA links nowMay 04 21:47
schestowitzMicrosoft might announce layoffs tomorrow. Good time tor TomTom (and Linux)May 04 21:47
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schestowitztrmanco: thanks for the linksMay 04 21:50
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trmanco;)May 04 21:51
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trmanco"Mono may have its place. But is certainly not the magic bullet that some make it out to be. It's another language and set of libraries that doesn't seem to have all that much on other existing languages and libraries, despite what Miguel and Novell would like for people to think. Although from an empirical standpoint, it does seem to result in bigger, hungrier, more sluggish applications than most others."May 04 21:59 is time-hungryMay 04 22:00
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SubsonicBGood evening gentlemenMay 04 22:03
trmancoschestowitz, have you read the comments?May 04 22:06
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trmancogood newsMay 04 22:16
trmanco"It is a prime candidate to replace Tomboy by default in Fedora 12. "May 04 22:16
trmanco"Gnote has been in Fedora for the past few weeks and I have been keeping it updated to match upstream releases. The latest version 0.3.0 has been built for Rawhide (leading to Fedora 11) and Fedora 10 already. It is a prime candidate to replace Tomboy by default in Fedora 12."May 04 22:16
trmanco 04 22:16
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SubsonicBlets hope somebody ports f-spot and makes it mono-free following gnote exampleMay 04 22:18
_Hicham_fuck f-spotMay 04 22:19
_Hicham_fuck monoMay 04 22:19
_Hicham_Hi schestowitz!May 04 22:19
trmanco"So, basically your defense of Mono is that... it's newer?May 04 22:19
trmancoSpeaking of sticking the head in the sand!May 04 22:19
trmancoSuposedly Mono/.NET was to bing: faster development, safer code and near native code speeds (whe JIT-compiled).May 04 22:19
trmancoGnote has needed a mere month to get to its actual state, and everybody says it's clearly faster than Tomboy. The question is: is Tomboy any safer than Gnote?May 04 22:19
trmancoOne interesting thing is that, in fact, the Gnote case is just anecdotal evidence. We still need more examples of real world applications ported."May 04 22:19
schestowitzheyMay 04 22:21
schestowitzSubsonicB: May 04 22:21
schestowitzi'm eatingMay 04 22:21
_Hicham_the ideal is to create a migration frameworkMay 04 22:21
_Hicham_good appetite schestowitzMay 04 22:22
_Hicham_a migration framework just like the one proposed by Qt to migrate from MFC on WindowsMay 04 22:22
schestowitzHi, SubsonicB. I will post lots of stuff tomorrowMay 04 22:25
schestowitzI need to watch up with news first and post links before bedtime.May 04 22:25
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*_Hicham_ ( has joined #boycottnovellMay 04 22:28
trmanco_Hicham_, MFC's are a messMay 04 22:29
Balrog_these people keep saying that 'you pick on MS because they're big'May 04 22:29
_Hicham_trmanco : MS do crappy softwareMay 04 22:30
_Hicham_they don't focus on usabilityMay 04 22:30
_Hicham_instead, they focus on theming and so onMay 04 22:30
trmanco_Hicham_, the problem is not usability, thats up to the dev, the real problem is the confusing and sloppy code the mfc wizard createsMay 04 22:31
SubsonicBhi roy. thanks a lotMay 04 22:31
Balrog_and 'they do <things> to make developers' lives easier'May 04 22:31
trmancoeven functions don't have a real naming logic... damn how I love php for thisMay 04 22:31
trmancoIMO, MFC's are a complete nightmareMay 04 22:32
_Hicham_trmanco : MS have lots of problem in wrapping Win32 APIMay 04 22:32
_Hicham_Win32 API was done in an old fashioned wayMay 04 22:32
_Hicham_old fashioned and crappyMay 04 22:32
_Hicham_so wrapping it in C++ is not easyMay 04 22:33
trmancoI'm actually learning this crap at school, and c++ (.NET) is the hardest language I've ever tried to learn in my lifeMay 04 22:33
_Hicham_there are some wrappers that are better in my opinionMay 04 22:33
_Hicham_like Win32++May 04 22:33
Balrog_C++.NET?May 04 22:33
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Balrog_they probably make it hard to encourage C#May 04 22:34
SubsonicBtrmanco, I agree with you MFCs are a hell of nonsense, there is no coherence at all in the librariesMay 04 22:34
_Hicham_trmanco : C++.NET is just another trapMay 04 22:34
trmancowait, maybe I'm confusedMay 04 22:34
_Hicham_Balrog_ : it is not thatMay 04 22:34
trmancoI still remember visual basic .NETMay 04 22:34
trmancowhat I'm programming write now has nothing to do with .netMay 04 22:34
trmancoI'm actually program in MSVC 6.0, and it never heard of .NETMay 04 22:35
_Hicham_all .NET language share the same set of namespacesMay 04 22:35
trmancoI*May 04 22:35
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trmancoI thinkMay 04 22:35
trmancoSubsonicB, I'm glad you agree with me :-PMay 04 22:35
_Hicham_trmanco : did u try Win32++?May 04 22:36
trmanco_Hicham_, noMay 04 22:36
trmancoand I might not even try itMay 04 22:36
trmancocan't waste my time with a system I don't even use at home :-pMay 04 22:37
_Hicham_Win32++ is a free and lightweight wrapper around Win32 APIMay 04 22:37
_Hicham_better use GTKsMay 04 22:37
_Hicham_trmanco : did you use GTK on Windows?May 04 22:38
Balrog_Mingw?May 04 22:38
trmancoyeah, I will try to learn the !gtk bindings! <- did I say this right?May 04 22:38
trmancoI've already looked into the docs, but it was just a light passMay 04 22:39
_Hicham_with MinGW or MSVCMay 04 22:39
_Hicham_GTK is very SimpleMay 04 22:39
_Hicham_GTKmm is a little bit complicated but less codeMay 04 22:39
_Hicham_pyGTK, I haven't tried it yetMay 04 22:40
trmancoI might have to use gtk++May 04 22:40
trmancoit's cross platformMay 04 22:40
trmancoLinux<->Windows at leastMay 04 22:40
_Hicham_GTK is cross platform by definitionMay 04 22:41
_Hicham_I developed a small encryption utility on Linux, and then ported it easily to WindowsMay 04 22:41
trmancogoodMay 04 22:41
trmancobut a still prefer phpMay 04 22:42
trmancoit also has gtkMay 04 22:42
trmancobut don't know how well it worksMay 04 22:42
trmanco:-pMay 04 22:42
_Hicham_GTK is everywhereMay 04 22:42
_Hicham_it is recommended by GNUMay 04 22:43
trmanco:)May 04 22:43
_Hicham_did u try Ubuntu 9.04?May 04 22:44
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trmancoI'm on 9.04May 04 22:45
trmancobut it's not a clean installMay 04 22:45
_Hicham_did u do an upgrade from 8.10?May 04 22:46
trmancomy cousin installed it on his laptop, (windows screwed grub, made a fresh install) boot in about 20 secondsMay 04 22:46
trmanco_Hicham_, yesMay 04 22:46
trmancobut I already did an upgrade from 8.04 to 8.10May 04 22:46
_Hicham_you can reinstall grubMay 04 22:47
*neonfloor has quit ("Leaving")May 04 22:47
trmancoyeah, but he was just curious and had nothing to loose from installing ti all over againMay 04 22:48
trmancohe also used ext4 for his / filesystemMay 04 22:48
MinceRgnMay 04 22:49
trmancognMay 04 22:50
trmancoI'm also ready to goMay 04 22:50
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trmancoUbuntu and Fedora Replace init with Upstart: 04 22:54
trmancocyaMay 04 22:58
*schestowitz catches upMay 04 23:05
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, I used Visual Studio just once many years ago.. to port an OpenGL program to Windows. It took one afternoon.May 04 23:06
schestowitzWindows version was 5 times slower!May 04 23:07
*ushimitsudoki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))May 04 23:07
SubsonicBmust leave now, good evening gentlemenMay 04 23:29
*SubsonicB has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]")May 04 23:29
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the_mad_hatterRoy, goto, and search on "microsoft".May 04 23:30
the_mad_hatter 04 23:31
the_mad_hatterAll of the articles listed are attacks on Google. There are no attacks on Microsoft for overcharging their customers, providing faulty software, etc.May 04 23:31
*neonfloss ( has joined #boycottnovellMay 04 23:36
schestowitzliHeyMay 04 23:38
schestowitzYes, I saw thatMay 04 23:38
schestowitzI put a link to such a thingMay 04 23:38
schestowitzSee the commentsMay 04 23:38
schestowitzThere's more in these IRC logs, which you'll see tomorrow if you read itMay 04 23:39
schestowitzIt brewed in IRC actually, like many other articlesMay 04 23:39
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))May 04 23:44
*_Hicham_ ( has joined #boycottnovellMay 04 23:45
_Hicham_Hi oiaohmMay 04 23:45
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)May 04 23:48
schestowitzI needed a picture of a red hatMay 04 23:50
schestowitzI was tempted to us this: 04 23:50
schestowitzI'd just go with this instead: 04 23:50
schestowitzWe might have more female readers than I realiseMay 04 23:50
schestowitzRed Hat: We Should Probably Look at Switching out Tomboy with Gnote in the Fedora 12 Panel Configuration < >May 04 23:54

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