Bonum Certa Men Certa

Guest Post: Hostile Communities and Arrogant Developers

Easter Eggs



Summary: "Don't put all your eggs in one basket, whether regarding your software or your community."

As a free speech advocate who once spent an entire decade establishing a single point about development that was hostile to a community, I've spent a long time thinking about what makes certain things so difficult to say or get acknowledged in a community -- about how communities can delude themselves and use coordinated abuse to defend their positions.



For those who feel this is a familiar problem, my advice to you is: don't put all your eggs in one basket, whether regarding your software or your community. If the people around your favourite software are toxic in some way, find a good way to create or seek an alternative.

Humility is a hard problem in computer science, and people will judge you based on their own notions of fairness. Fairness is a difficult concept for basically everyone. No matter how interested you are in finding truth, playing devil's advocate or viewing things from multiple perspectives (without succumbing to false compromise) you're ultimately going to choose between being agreeable and taking a lot of criticism.

"I like people that are outspoken, I like that Torvalds flipped off Nvidia and I like that Stallman doesn't coddle corporations and excuse their corruption and poor behaviour towards the user."If you are a critic, you will have every critique turned back on you. People say they are thick-skinned, but a lot of that is about appearances and what people tell themselves. Most people are more vulnerable than they admit.

One of the things that I try to promote as a free speech advocate is for people to be allowed to be their true selves -- but not allowed to be untrue. This means for one thing, that we aren't putting up a facade of being agreeable when we feel something is wrong. It also means people have faults, and no matter where you are in your journey as a person, that you screw up and other people screw up, and pretty much everybody has played the fool before.

Some of the most vulnerable people in the world like to project their need for perfection onto others. They don't always hold themselves to similar standards; they either feel great amounts of shame, or none at all, and they maintain this by being unfair to everyone. This doesn't actually bother everyone, because being consistently unfair has different effects on different people -- some get pissed off, others walk away, some people treat it as a learning experience, and if you make it a goal in life to treat every experience as an opportunity to grow, you probably will grow. Sometimes.

I'm not here to paint myself as a saint. I like people that are outspoken, I like that Torvalds flipped off Nvidia and I like that Stallman doesn't coddle corporations and excuse their corruption and poor behaviour towards the user. I think there are (at least) two kinds of assholes: those who are assholes for a good cause (Bill Hicks, George Carlin -- when he is maintaining the kernel, Linus Torvalds -- Spider Jerusalem) and people who are "really just assholes."

The whole concept of becoming the niceness police is a very corporate thing, which in practice allows people like Torvalds to be hypocritically stifled by people who are just as rude, but who have worse intentions. I don't support it, I don't defend it, it is a recipe for hypocrisy.

"That's part of the fairness -- if we decide to treat anything we consider offensive as yet another scarlet letter, all we have done is made the world more corporate and authoritative."Any concept of being better people has to acknowledge that many of the best people in the world are assholes sometimes. That's part of the fairness -- if we decide to treat anything we consider offensive as yet another scarlet letter, all we have done is made the world more corporate and authoritative.

Then again, if someone is being a jerk without a good reason (and who is to say? Should we make it about what the reason is, about context, or should we make it authoritative?) You still have the right to call them on it.

If you do, is the bully protected? Is the community really introspective enough to not favour their own over fairness? Will they turn against you for speaking up, and then neglect to address the bully you stood up to? Because this sort of injustice doesn't becomes less common under a Code of Conduct. It often increases. This particular sort of injustice is the same problem with or without a CoC.

Consider the Bill of Rights. These are ideals and freedoms a lot of us want every person to have; it is not just a list of privileges for citizens, in fact they are drawn from a concept of natural rights. The Bill of Rights places natural rights firmly outside the reach of (legitimate) government. If you rip up the Constitution, the rights still exist -- all that has changed is whether those rights are officially recognised by the government.

Do we extend that sort of baseline fairness to people outside our communities? Do we recognise the rights of other people we consider inalienable? I admit this question is mostly rhetorical, but all I'm really trying to say here is that I believe truth often transcends a local community take on it -- there are always areas in which a community forgets the obvious about one matter or another.

Not being a jerk is a great goal for any person, never being considered a jerk is a goal that is probably unobtainable for most or all good people. I love Dave Chappelle and what he says about Kevin Hart, and either are surely considered jerks by many now -- due to their politics or pasts. Are they wonderful comedians? I think so. Not all of us are offended, or need to be.

"Not being a jerk is a great goal for any person, never being considered a jerk is a goal that is probably unobtainable for most or all good people."But there are efforts to destroy people based on holding them to an unrealistic standard. There is nothing that really makes Richard Stallman a horrible person, but there are plenty of arguments for treating him no differently than someone who is. To me, that's a fine example of arrogance -- of creating a different concept of fairness to take down a great person than one we would accept for ourselves in the same shoes.

But even if we are terrible at figuring out who deserves it, I also think we have a right to stand up to bullies, and argue with people who are being unreasonable. Being "nice" to everyone is a fine solution, if you really believe it is the answer to everything -- if you're capable of really being nice to everyone.

"There is nothing that really makes Richard Stallman a horrible person, but there are plenty of arguments for treating him no differently than someone who is."I think more people are capable of being jerks to those who deserve it, and there's a lot of room to talk about the times we turn that on the wrong people, or for the wrong reasons. But I don't believe that it's never justified. I think if we make a rule that you can never argue, never protest, never be "rude", and that doing so somehow ruins something -- that's just nonsense. It is a convenience for exactly the sort of person who needs to abuse the sort of authoritarian regime it inevitably creates.

A better rule would be to try to understand why people are being jerks -- if they have a reason to be that way, if they are being misunderstood, if there is context -- if there is no interest, then just ignore it. This is a good idea, but some people will be certain to exploit our best nature.

When I wrote a book on how the Free software movement could become twice as effective, I included a chapter on narcissism -- I think there is more of it out there than people realise or understand. It isn't just an inflated sense of self. It isn't just ambition. Narcissism is a fundamental unfairness, and if lots more people understood it better, I think communities would be able to deal with it more effectively.

So if I talk about "hostile communities" or "arrogant developers," I'm not just saying that there are jerks there. There are "jerks" everywhere. Some of them are even valuable to us.

The context of such labels, if applied fairly, is that a fundamental unfairness, a persistent injustice infects a project -- due to its community, its project leaders, or both. It's not just about what people are doing, but what reasons they have, and what they are trying to defend with their abuse.

"I don't like Torvalds because of the way he smeared the Free software community selfishly and unfairly, while stealing so much credit from them during the course of his career."And if you're one of those people who really are nice to everybody -- great, you make the world a better place. Most people aren't as good as you, but you deserve credit for setting a good example. Cheers.

I don't like Torvalds because of the way he smeared the Free software community selfishly and unfairly, while stealing so much credit from them during the course of his career. To me, that is fundamentally unjust. What I would like for him to do instead is to turn his ability to forcefully defend the kernel on such matters exclusively, and not have it spill over onto how he treats reasonable critics.

But since that will never happen, I will simply retain my opinion of him. I'm not going to stop using his kernel, because I don't think he's a monster. I just think he's a dick. If a better kernel came along, sure, that's great.

I'm not saying there is no threshold where I wouldn't boycott a piece of software over someone's attitude, I'm just saying that for me personally, the importance and quality of Torvald's kernel outweighs his smearing of the entire Free software community. It leaves me using his software and disliking him as a person, and commenting on his unfairness. If he wrote a text editor, and it wasn't the very best text editor in the history of the world, I might not use it just because he's a jerk.

But I also believe that he is a better person than the one who will take his place, that he shows great integrity when defending the quality and goals of the kernel (quality and goals I strongly agree are worthwhile) and that it's just too bad that integrity doesn't extend to his treatment of Free software, or of corporations.

Facebook is disease, hating Microsoft is a disease. How can you be so inconsistent? But as someone who gets some things very right, and other things very wrong, he's a very useful example. We are never going to get an apology from Linus. What we will get, is a worse replacement.

When I start mentioning toxic communities, I'm talking about endemics -- something that can only be solved via personal integrity from a threshold of more than one individual working together for a higher purpose. I don't think you can force toxicity out of a community -- they can only repair themselves from within, or they can be abandoned if there is a viable alternative.

If instead, we just try to purge all the jerks from every corner -- what do we get? A world with no Carlins, no Chappelles, no Stallmans, and we get a worse person than Torvalds instead of Torvalds.

"Hostile communities also have a certain level of unfairness towards outsiders; they claim one principle, but that principle doesn't hold up once you go outside the innermost community."I don't recommend being that superficial. The only way for humanity to reach perfection is if it takes forever, or takes shortcuts to damn itself. We are so attached to the latter these days -- I would rather it take forever. But I would still like for communities to at least try to maintain a good overall direction. There are too many places right now, that we don't even have that.

Maybe you don't know what I'm talking about, and that's alright. One thing I've noticed from years of talking about the politics of communities, is that most people are constantly told (and to some degree, believe) that there is no problem. Others think it is irrelevant unless there is a proven solution. Others thing it is irrelevant even if there is a proven solution.

When it comes to a community or government that stifles people, the people who believe there is stifling are always the minority -- often a small one.

There are lots of people who love to play a victim too, and there is no simple way to ever be sure who is whom. But where there is stifling, the people to notice and say something are often the first to experience the full brunt of it. If you ask around -- "Are people being stifled? What about this guy? What about her? How about these people over here?" You are typically going to have to be an investigative reporter to find the stifling going on. If it were obvious, more people wouldn't support it.

You have to care really deeply about a community to change this, and you also have to be respected in the community enough to stand up to it and not become another victim.

"You have to care really deeply about a community to change this, and you also have to be respected in the community enough to stand up to it and not become another victim."There are no easy answers, but that doesn't mean these problems don't exist. It is the very worst when the arrogance and hostility protects things that don't deserve protection -- things like corporate takeovers, slacking about security, and protecting the dishonest. Hostile communities also have a certain level of unfairness towards outsiders; they claim one principle, but that principle doesn't hold up once you go outside the innermost community.

It is passe to refer to these hostile communities as cults, but not entirely without point to make the comparison. Sometimes, non-cults circle the wagons and become gradually more cult-like with time.

It's important to point out that you can have a highly toxic community for an otherwise good project, even if the developer is a decent person. Ideally, the developer would fix this -- unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes in the Free software world, the lead developer is the real problem. Sometimes it has nothing to do with them, and they are sort of a victim of their own supporters; it's not that the supporters don't appreciate the developer, its just that they are incapable of not being toxic. Realising they didn't get into software to raise and babysit a community, the developer throws their hands up and lets the community be a mix of friendly people, narcissistic co-leaders, and their many victims.

"For Debian, it was systemd -- for Puppy Linux, it will likely be the use of GitHub."There is often some singular political truth being propped up by such a community -- that the community is protecting a single lie (such as an exaggeration of the effectiveness of their effort or their ability to keep a core promise to users, once abandoned) and most of the abuse towards the unguarded centres around tripping over that one lie with a simple truth.

In other words, the narcissistic defense of a single false promise to users (I can think of several examples among several different communities) rather than admitting limitations is often at the core of these quiet feuds, disputes and endemic abuse.

Eventually these disputes become controversy, and later on they become a project's downfall. For Debian, it was systemd -- for Puppy Linux, it will likely be the use of GitHub. These are not even the worst examples, which I have neglected to mention at this time. There are also many lesser examples. Of course, it may not matter to you. If you have never experienced this sort of thing first hand, it may never matter to you.

If you have witnessed it in more than one community, you might feel obliged to comment on it. But it is seldom easy to do so, even for good people. To gain respect in a community often takes more than being a good person -- if your contributions aren't among the top concerns, you may find that silence amidst corruption is your only saving grace.

Is that a privilege you really even want?

License: Creative Commons CC0 1.0 (Public Domain)

Comments

Recent Techrights' Posts

Pushing to the Top
Publishing is about exposing corruption
How Long Can a Company Delay Its Financial Report That Likely Confirms Exodus of Staff, Growing Debt, and Other Problems?
Brett Wilson LLP was meant to release its annual report some time early this month
European Patent Office (EPO) Series: Networking With the National Delegates
António Campinos with a prime opportunity to network with the Administrative Council delegates and lobby for his reappointment
IBM's Alderon as "Silent Layoffs", Not Just Bailout From Taxpayers
Seeing through the noise
Laptop Bricked After Microsoft Certificates Expiry
Is "Jim" dead?
 
Gemini Links 29/06/2026: Using More of GPLv3+ and Merits of Security by TOFU
Links for the day
Links 29/06/2026: Lemote Yeeloong Laptop With OpenBSD, Slop Ruins Code/Development
Links for the day
Antisocial People With No Computer Science Background Are Ruining the Technology Space (Like Officials With No Experience in Patents Destroyed the EPO)
This is a real issue; it needs to be widely recognised and tackled
DDoS Attacks Are a Crime and They Only Increase Interest (Intrigue) in Their Target
Information cannot be DDoSed out of reach/existence, except temporarily
Whistleblowing and Retaliation by Microsoft Workers Against Microsoft Seems Increasingly Likely
some will go to the press, looking to expose some shenanigans
SLAPP Censorship - Part 122 Out of 200: Garrett's Solicitors Confirm That Garrett is Ban-Evading and Spying on Our IRC Network
his solicitors basically acknowledge this
PIPs and "Retirements": IBM Layoffs in Anything But Name
That former Red Hat (now IBM) staff threatens to put my wife and I in prison is worse than cruel
Contact Members of the EPO Administrative Council, Tell Them the EPO (Office) Became a Disgrace and an Enemy of Europe's Citizens
If you live in Europe (not just the EU, even Turkey is included), please contact your delegates
The World Needs GNU/Linux for Security, Turn Off "Secure Boot" (It's the Opposite of Security)
They call it "Secure Boot", but what does it mean to say "Secure" when you actively opt for back doors controlled by Microsoft, the FBI, and many more parties?
In Signal of Weakness or Phasing Out XBox (Not Sustainable, According to the CEO) Microsoft "Pauses New Third-Party Game Pass Deals"
Moments ago
Two Pieces About "AI" This Morning Were Paid-For SPAM at The Register MS
The Register MS is the "Tech News" publisher you can pay to promote your company and even key-word-stuff pages for SEO purposes
Week of Microsoft Layoffs, Maybe Record-Breaking Scale
They will mislead about the scale
Links 28/06/2026: More Om Malik Eulogies, Cloudflare Promotes Web Browser Monocultures
Links for the day
'Modern' Web: "Stop! You Are Browsing Too Fast!"
Can the Web ever recover from this?
Pensions Tied to Ponzi Schemes Are Themselves Ponzi Schemes
Pensions are becoming more like that as well
Monoculture in Europe as National (or Continental) Security Threat
We need more browser diversity
Canada 5-0: GNU/Linux Rises to 5.0%, Windows Rapidly Falls to New Lows
Will we be seeing 6-0 (6%) by year's end and will Microsoft be shown two red cards?
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, June 28, 2026
IRC logs for Sunday, June 28, 2026
Gemini Links 29/06/2026: Sansieviera, HiFi, and Self-Signed Certificates
Links for the day
Outsourcing is Not Security
Outsourcing to Microsoft is the opposite of security
Links 28/06/2026: Turkey's State Broadcaster Suspends Commentator, Journalists Under Attack
Links for the day
Debugpoint.com Turns to LLM Slop for 'Help'
This is how sites die
Follow the Real Security Experts
Werner Koch
Assessing the Upcoming (July) Proprietary/GAFAM Cuts
The total (or %) matters to us because it can help shed light on what scale of layoffs to expect next week
Microsoft Lunduke Does Not Correct or Clarify Misinformation That He Posted (or Repeats It Instead)
Not the first time [...] detracts and/or distracts from legitimate criticisms
How Not to Do Security
Asking Microsoft for permission
Gemini Links 28/06/2026: Simulation Theory and Pursuit of Novelty
Links for the day
Five Years After Its Formation Libera.Chat Has the Most Simultaneous Users in Internet Relay Chat (IRC)
netsplit.de also measures the cross-network total at over 300k, probably for the first time in years
The Slop 'Religion' is Dying: From Widespread (Paid-for) Hype to Widespread Hate
Wait till "sentiment" in Wall Street - not just general (public) "sentiment" - shifts strongly against slop
For Whistleblowers' Sake, Choose Hosting Platforms Wisely
Techrights is hard to 'sedate'
How to Discreetly Leak Important Information to Techrights
Some years ago we published multi-part series about how to contact us securely
Expect Many More Whistleblowers From Microsoft
We envision many pissed off workers from Microsoft will become whistleblowers after next week's giant wave
Efforts to Resume Progress on FreeJS, LibreJS, and Reduce Dependence on Microsoft
It's still in a relatively early development stage
Whistleblowers Improve the World
we should appreciate and respect whistleblowers
Microsoft Windows Plunges to All-Time Lows in Japan
Microsoft is disintegrating; many people no longer use (nor need) Windows
GNU/Linux Turns 43 in 3 Months From Now
The Manifesto of the Free software movement (GNU Manifesto, 1985) turned 40 last year
SLAPP Censorship - Part 121 Out of 200: One Day We'll Discover What Company or Rich Person/s Funded the Lawfare Against Us
Even if the law firm shoulders some of the losses, then it is in effect an investor in the lawfare, according to established caselaw
Working on "Linux", But on Microsoft's Payroll
Under the totally false guise of "security" those same people are now promoting TPMs and other horrible things
Links 28/06/2026: Energy Crunch, EEE by Microsoft, and John Bolton Pleads Guilty in Dictatorship of SLAPPs
Links for the day
Jim Not Dead Yet
Let's wait a few more days
Microsoft Layoffs So Big They Cannot Even Wait for 'D-Day' (July 1)
"Layoffs at Xbox Appear to Have Already Begun, with Multiple Compulsion Games Employees Announcing Their Departures"
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Saturday, June 27, 2026
IRC logs for Saturday, June 27, 2026
Links 28/06/2026: Heatwave in Europe and Media Failing to Actually Criticise Power
Links for the day
Gemini Links 28/06/2026: Poems, Photographs, and Neoliberalism as Religion
Links for the day
SLAPP Censorship - Part 120 Out of 200: Garrett Undermines His Own Application Because His Friend Graveley Failed to Accomplish What They Had Both Aimed For
Hold off the "popcorn"
Don't Settle for Slop
Slop is a bit of a symptom of where society is told to go
Gemini Links 27/06/2026: Photography From Interlaken to Shynige Platte, Slop 'Code', and Distro Hopping
Links for the day
TIGER COMPUTING LTD Sent Us Threats Half a Decade Ago (Because of Criticism of Their In-House Debian Developer), Now the Company's Debt is Deepening
So what is they're connected to the military?
GNU/Linux in Mexico Near All-Time High
With all the tourists packing the place (or hotels) we can imagine big changes to be seen next month (many portable devices)
Summer Plans in Tux Machines
July is nearly upon us
Gopher (Protocol) Turns 35, Gemini is 28 Years Younger
Bad technology comes and goes very fast
Be Like Stallman and Assange, Not Like MElon or Bill Epsteingate
these people treat women like worse than dirt
Exposure Leads to More Whistleblowing
In areas like IBM or European patent affairs we've always earned a lot of trust
European Patent Office (EPO) Series Will Run Well Into July
We still have a very significant chunk of EPO "trench" stories
Links 27/06/2026: Journalists Kicked Out of China, Torture in Iran and Turkey
Links for the day
How Microsoft is Preventing or Slowing Down Adoption of GNU/Linux (Fake 'GNU' Controlled by GitHub in Windows, WSL, Sabotage at Boot Level, Not Limited to Dual-Booting)
Microsoft is still at it
Rising Computer Prices Good News for GNU/Linux and Free Software
This can greatly assist the adoption of BSDs and GNU/Linux
Links 27/06/2026: More Restrictions on Social Control Media and Russia is Leveraging Cellebrite/Back Doors
Links for the day
Saying "No" is Not a Bad Thing
Society benefits from people who say "No!" even when it seems impolite (and possibly inconvenient) to say so
Next Week's "Bloodbath" at Microsoft Includes "Silent Layoffs" (Which Microsoft Won't Count)
The notion of "silent layoffs" is fast becoming the "new normal"
Akira Urushibata on the Likely False (Unverifiable) Claims Anthropic Makes About Defects for Marketing/Hype
Some pro-LLM person has managed to derail the discussion on this topic
European Patent Office (EPO) Series: "Team Campinos" in Split
The EPO team was of course headed by Campinos himself who delivered a "forward-looking" keynote speech to the assembled audience consisting mainly of Administrative Council delegates from the national IP offices
Supporting Women in the Free Software Community
The common theme here is abuse of women
Left IBM After Many Years, Came to Microsoft/XBox, Now Silent Layoffs at XBox
many inside XBox will have their last day next week
Gemini Links 27/06/2026: Homeworlds and Tarot Cards
Links for the day
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Friday, June 26, 2026
IRC logs for Friday, June 26, 2026