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#boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 4th, 2008 (Part I)

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:47 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

tessier_ http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnol… Jun 04 00:12
tessier_ You folks seen that? It’s on /. right now too. Jun 04 00:12
tessier_ Could be a new avenue of fud. Jun 04 00:12
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schestowitz tessier, PJ saw that earlier Jun 04 02:21
schestowitz I posted it in BN too. It seems like FUD indeed and I saw something similar last week. Jun 04 02:21
dsmith_ I had a n interesting conversation today with our CFO, I asked him which is better. “Spending money on software licenses and training, or just spending money on software training” He said, “..training of course.” I followed with, “then why did you push for everyone to use Office 2007 when we were already using 2003 and just starting to use OO. Talk about a deer in head lights look. Jun 04 02:44
schestowitz Maybe he pullled a Newham. :-) Jun 04 03:01
schestowitz Microsoft seems to have just hired a new top shil… I mean, gun. Jun 04 03:02
schestowitz Some legal czar as they call it. Jun 04 03:02
dsmith_ http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquire… Jun 04 03:06
schestowitz Haha. Yes, that’s the one. Steele is under a lot of heavy fire at the moment. He’s like a Microsoft insider among CIOs. Cheerleader in suit. Jun 04 03:17
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dsmith_ damnit, Lenovo changed thier wbsite Jun 04 03:22
dsmith_ the link I posted the otherday about obtaining DOS laptops? They are showing ONLY suse now Jun 04 03:22
schestowitz SUSE is worse than nothing at all. It forces you to pay Microsoft. Jun 04 03:26
dsmith_ yep workstations only, not on thinkpads Jun 04 03:26
hassanibraheem schestowitz: I was just checking my feed reader, and seen the list of LUGRadio speakers Jun 04 03:27
dsmith_ I am going to call someone I know tomorrow about this Jun 04 03:27
hassanibraheem schestowitz: http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1191 Jun 04 03:27
hassanibraheem schestowitz: Steve Lamb (Microsoft) – Green IT Jun 04 03:27
hassanibraheem schestowitz: it gets funnier however :D http://blogs.technet.com/steve… Jun 04 03:28
schestowitz This ‘outreach’ is often part of the Hilfism. They try to make it harder for Linux users to resent them and then they get closer to serve Microsoft’s agenda (e.g. MOON in Blender). Jun 04 03:30
dsmith_ Found this on a forum. Re: thinkpad dos license gone? “I just talked to a lenovo rep asking him about the dos o/s option and he told me it was an error” Jun 04 03:30
dsmith_ an error? Jun 04 03:30
schestowitz Interesting. This is something to write about. Dell too use to ‘blame’ the configurator. Jun 04 03:31
schestowitz used Jun 04 03:31
hassanibraheem dsmith_: DOS ? I dunno about lenovo, but doesn’t OEMs prefer FreeDOS ? Jun 04 03:32
schestowitz These things rarely just ‘break’. They get tweaked. Jun 04 03:32
dsmith_ apparently not Lenovo Jun 04 03:32
dsmith_ its been changed Jun 04 03:32
dsmith_ website developers wont make a “mistake” gimmie a break Jun 04 03:32
dsmith_ hassanibraheem: when you type in linux on Lenovo’s search feature it directs you to suse only laptops Jun 04 03:33
dsmith_ well I wont be buying a lenvo now, unless they change it back Jun 04 03:35
dsmith_ roy: here is a forum write up about it Jun 04 03:36
dsmith_ http://forum.notebookreview.com/s… Jun 04 03:36
fumanchu2175 What a shame that Lenovo will only give you Suse Jun 04 03:40
fumanchu2175 They are gone in my book. Jun 04 03:40
dsmith_ I’m upset now I was going to buy one in a few days Jun 04 03:42
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fumanchu2175 Can you get it with another distro or with no OS Jun 04 03:42
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dsmith_ suse, xp, vista Jun 04 03:45
dsmith_ thats it Jun 04 03:45
dsmith_ what a farce… Jun 04 03:45
schestowitz Lenovo used to certify for Fedora, Ubuntu, SUSE. Jun 04 03:47
schestowitz The IBM links doesn’t help. In face, many Microsoft partners pick Microsoft Linux… errr, I mean SUSE Linux. Jun 04 03:47
dsmith_ well with the ultrabay 2nd drive option I will more then likely get one and promptly wipe SUSE Jun 04 03:53
schestowitz The man’s avatar (in the forum above) is very telling. He’s not happy. Jun 04 03:56
dsmith_ lol Jun 04 03:57
schestowitz I have a quick question to ask you. How do you suggest IRC logs get published. Might there be suitable as just archives on the side? Maybe blog posts with “read more” buttons? Jun 04 03:57
schestowitz (assuming we wish to make them public at all. IRC is not private to begin with) Jun 04 03:58
dsmith_ standard text I supose> Jun 04 03:58
dsmith_ damn same thing with PC Connection Jun 04 03:59
dsmith_ oh well I will make aphone call tomorrow Jun 04 03:59
schestowitz I’ll just wait before posting anything about it then. Jun 04 03:59
schestowitz The danger from the start has been that the Xandroses and Suses will sidelines free distros, in which case you must always pay Microsoft via OEMs and they get to set the price (patents). Jun 04 04:00
dsmith_ all machines, desktop/laptops should only be installed with DOS only Jun 04 04:02
dsmith_ at least then ppl will learn something Jun 04 04:02
schestowitz You know, I’ve just come to realise something. Jun 04 04:02
schestowitz In Asia at the moment, many new Linux laptops are introduced. Jun 04 04:03
schestowitz Now… if Microsoft can put Xandros and SUSE (with Mono and Windows-like menus), then it can: 1) keep people addicted to Windows UIs; 2) Assert patents. Jun 04 04:03
schestowitz Re: preinstalls, France is working on this, but the likes of Microsoft can harp about ‘options’ and choice (SUSE, as in, you can choose between white and vanilla white, as long as you pay us) Jun 04 04:05
dsmith_ bah windows UI is stupid Jun 04 04:07
dsmith_ but I digress Jun 04 04:07
dsmith_ bbl Jun 04 04:07
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jbh the problem with SUSE being offered by Dell/Lenovo (and others?) as the only Linux option is that if you buy SUSE you feed the devil(s), if you don’t buy with SUSE you give the impression that no one is interested in Linux on their hardware Jun 04 04:53
jbh so they give up on Linux Jun 04 04:53
jbh it’s a catch-22 Jun 04 04:54
schestowitz Hey, jbh Jun 04 05:07
schestowitz Yes, that’s the problem. It’s the same when the OEMs sell GNU/Linux for a higher price (sometimes the case with Dell and Asus in AU). Jun 04 05:08
schestowitz It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy that enables them to claim no Linux demand. People would rather dual-boot for a lower cost than single-boot (just Linux). Jun 04 05:09
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schestowitz Welcome, santhosh, baijum. Jun 04 06:45
santhosh hi schestowitz Jun 04 06:45
baijum Hi schestowitz Jun 04 07:09
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schestowitz It now appears as though Microsoft’s proxy fighter wants Yang out. (WSJ says so) Jun 04 07:40
schestowitz Ichan and Ballmer make a good match. Oh, and Kempin (former OEM VP at Microsoft) who was arrested for shooting and killing 4 antelopes. Jun 04 07:41
schestowitz Icahn, I meant. Jun 04 07:41
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schestowitz Hi, PetoKraus Jun 04 07:50
PetoKraus hi roy Jun 04 07:50
schestowitz There was a more active discussion here a while ago. Sometimes an issue comes up or a new link emerges. Jun 04 07:56
PetoKraus well, i know Jun 04 07:56
PetoKraus this is IRC Jun 04 07:56
PetoKraus i am thinking whether i should put ubuntu or gentoo on mother’s computer :D Jun 04 07:59
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schestowitz If she doesn’t need to mess about with the distro, Gentoo would probably be fine. Jun 04 08:08
schestowitz Just found: http://dot.kde.org/1212516937/ (Three German KDE Deployments). The good news flow… Jun 04 08:08
PetoKraus well the point is, if something screws, i can better fix it when she has gentoo on Jun 04 08:08
schestowitz Can also SSH Jun 04 08:08
PetoKraus good Jun 04 08:08
PetoKraus yeah, that’s what i was talking about ;) Jun 04 08:09
PetoKraus i like the ASUS embedded linux thing Jun 04 08:09
schestowitz Won’t be long before Softies back a suitcase and run over to Berlin with discounts. Jun 04 08:09
PetoKraus though Xandros is crap… apart from ideological matters Jun 04 08:10
PetoKraus the Atheros driver in EEEPC doesn’t support enterprise WPA Jun 04 08:10
schestowitz If needed, free hardware too. Jun 04 08:10
schestowitz Zombulaptops ($99) run Gnetoo. Jun 04 08:10
schestowitz For the  record: http://www.zonbu.com/home/index.htm Jun 04 08:11
[H]omer Good morning! Jun 04 08:12
schestowitz Hey homer. Jun 04 08:12
schestowitz Ballmy wants Yang’s head today. Jun 04 08:12
[H]omer what’s happening Jun 04 08:12
schestowitz He sent Icahn Jun 04 08:12
[H]omer oh, bizniz as usual then Jun 04 08:12
schestowitz Then he wants to bury some p* (Schmidt) Jun 04 08:13
[H]omer Sweaty the Impaler is a fitting title Jun 04 08:13
[H]omer He should buy an axe Jun 04 08:13
[H]omer do you think he’ll end up getting Yahoo then? Jun 04 08:14
schestowitz Only the pieces of interest to him. He doesn’t want the whole bundle. It’s cheaper to let it have the unwanted parts like Flickr and just take away search query volume for spying (targeted ads, algorithm learning). Jun 04 08:15
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schestowitz Eventually, they might even buy Sealand and make Icahn their President. Jun 04 08:16
schestowitz Hi, ZiggyFish Jun 04 08:16
[H]omer lol Jun 04 08:16
ZiggyFish schestowitz: hello Jun 04 08:16
schestowitz We talk about Yahoo! Jun 04 08:16
ZiggyFish nice Jun 04 08:17
ZiggyFish just reading the ‘#boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 2nd, 2008′ article ATM Jun 04 08:18
schestowitz Microsoft essentially wants to buy Web real estate + logs Jun 04 08:18
schestowitz There’s a lot of cruft in that first one because the channel was being set up Jun 04 08:18
ZiggyFish schestowitz: why doesn’t that surprise me ;) Jun 04 08:18
[H]omer Just reading the news about Icahn now Jun 04 08:19
[H]omer Wow, this guy is a total megalomaniac Jun 04 08:19
schestowitz The WinTrolls need to see this new article about their stock market running what they call slopware: http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget… Jun 04 08:19
[H]omer What makes Icahn think he has the right to oust boards of directors just to suit his warped sense of good bizniz practice? Jun 04 08:20
schestowitz If he lives in another country, then maybe he’d be in jail rather than be seen as a hero like Trump. Jun 04 08:20
schestowitz “lived” I mean Jun 04 08:21
[H]omer Yeah, him and Trump are two maggots in the same apple Jun 04 08:21
schestowitz Who’s the Apple? Jobs? Jun 04 08:21
[H]omer :) Jun 04 08:21
schestowitz Jobs toois doing funny business. Jun 04 08:21
schestowitz He’s rich so he gets away with it. Jun 04 08:21
schestowitz Last year he had some stuff backdated and all the peons jumped to the rescue of the emporer, so he’s not in jail. Only in the USA can people commit crimes and get away with it. Bach too (of Microsoft), for inside-trading. Jun 04 08:22
schestowitz “emperor” Jun 04 08:23
[H]omer Icahn has spent 1B USD trying to assimilate Yahoo into the Vole!!! What gives? Is this guy a MS henchman or something? Jun 04 08:24
PetoKraus that zombu, is it FOSS? Jun 04 08:25
PetoKraus *nbu Jun 04 08:25
schestowitz Only 1? Well, he reminds me of McCain and you know who’s McCain’s favourite (for China)… Jun 04 08:25
schestowitz Yes, Zombu is all Gentoo-based and I think they only customise it. Jun 04 08:25
[H]omer I bet Icahn is a heavy MS investor, which accounts for why he’s so desperate to pump up the stock price. Jun 04 08:26
[H]omer There should be laws against what he’s doing Jun 04 08:26
schestowitz I think… just think… that I read the other day about him requiring SEC clearance for this. Jun 04 08:28
schestowitz The SEC too is controlled by insiders from what I could gather. I’m not suggesting that this was the case here, but it’s really just a toothless clawless puppy|et. Jun 04 08:29
benJIman schestowitz: You are violating freenode policy by publishing logs without warning in the topic. Jun 04 09:07
benJIman schestowitz: http://blog.freenode.net/?p=62 Jun 04 09:12
moparx they are talking about logging bots that post everything ever said in a channel… not people posting a few tidbits Jun 04 09:19
benJIman moparx: He posted the entire log for the last few days. Jun 04 09:23
schestowitz Thanks, ben. I’ll read the link. Jun 04 09:23
schestowitz Didn’t know this. Jun 04 09:23
schestowitz OK, it seems to be about bot scrapers, but you are right. I should modify the topic. Jun 04 09:25
benJIman The post is about bots, the policy is a general policy. Jun 04 09:25
*schestowitz has changed the topic to: Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications (publicly visible) Jun 04 09:26
schestowitz Is this better? Jun 04 09:26
PetoKraus i don’t think it clarifies anything Jun 04 09:26
PetoKraus better say, publicly logged Jun 04 09:26
PetoKraus ;) Jun 04 09:26
schestowitz I think the post was a response to scrapers, i.e. sites that just harvest FreeNode. Jun 04 09:27
*schestowitz has changed the topic to: Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications (publicly logged) Jun 04 09:27
schestowitz Thanks for the headsup, <benJIman>. I used IRC only when I was 13 or 14. Jun 04 09:27
schestowitz The net was small at the time. Jun 04 09:28
moparx unless I missed it.. there is nothing on the policy page: http://freenode.net/policy.shtml Jun 04 09:28
schestowitz I heard (read actually) some time ago about those blackhats exploiting or wanting to exploit IRC. Jun 04 09:29
schestowitz There are similar issues relating to USENET. Jun 04 09:30
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cyberorg benJIman, what did i miss? Jun 04 09:40
schestowitz Hey, cyberorg Jun 04 09:44
schestowitz I later realised you’re the Compiz guru Jun 04 09:45
cyberorg hi there schestowitz Jun 04 09:45
cyberorg no guru :P Jun 04 09:45
schestowitz Well, public face. Jun 04 09:45
cyberorg just opensuse compiz guy :) Jun 04 09:46
cyberorg nice if you to digg posts of mine once in a while Jun 04 09:46
schestowitz The folks there love eye candy. Jun 04 09:47
cyberorg yeah, i am a sucker for eye candy too Jun 04 09:48
schestowitz I still think that Digg is heavily gamed these days. People just vote in groups, which I never did. The important news is often missed Jun 04 09:48
schestowitz And Slashdot is doing Microsoft’s dirty work. Now this http://ask.slashdot.org/a… and this http://blog.internetnews.com/skern… Jun 04 09:48
schestowitz The former is sponsored only by Microsoft. They do a SourceForge landgrab Jun 04 09:49
schestowitz The latter made Slashdot’s front page even though it’s anti-FOSS FUD Jun 04 09:49
cyberorg how do you get the time to read and post so many things? Jun 04 09:51
moparx speaking of digg.. I just realized I had never gotten around to adding you as a friend Jun 04 09:51
moparx schestowitz is really a robot that’s how :p Jun 04 09:52
cyberorg moparx, ah, that explains it :) Jun 04 09:52
schestowitz No, I’ve just been spending too much time on this since I finished my practical work on the PhD (around the end of 2005). Jun 04 09:54
cyberorg so we call you Dr schestowitz yet? Jun 04 09:55
schestowitz Not yet, but I might win an award for being the slowest-ever person to write up. http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archiv… Jun 04 09:56
cyberorg haha, i am sure there are more people slower Jun 04 09:57
cozub yeah, like me :)) Jun 04 09:58
schestowitz I know one who took 7 years (a friend at the gym told me). Jun 04 09:59
[H]omer Watch this: http://slated.org/firefox_3_is_this_really_fr… Jun 04 10:01
schestowitz See http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006/01/hi… . Matt Mullenweg (WordPress founder) linked to it at a time. It’s very inspirational. Jun 04 10:01
schestowitz Something along these lines: “I was a diligent Oriental in high school and college. I took college-level classes and earned college-level credits. I rushed through college in 3 1/2 years. I never traveled or took time off because I thought it wouldn’t prepare me for work and it would delay my graduation. Frankly, I blew it. You are going to work the rest of your lives, so don’t be in a rush to start. Stretch out your college education. Now i Jun 04 10:01
schestowitz s the time to suck life into your lungs-before you have a mortgage, kids, and car payments. Take whole semesters off to travel overseas. Take jobs and internships that pay less money or no money. Investigate your passions on your parent’s nickel. Or dime. Or quarter. Or dollar. Your goal should be to extend college to at least six years.” Jun 04 10:01
schestowitz Luckily I cover all my expenses, which are low. Jun 04 10:02
cozub lol to the text ^ Jun 04 10:03
schestowitz I have GNU IceCat at home, [h]omer Jun 04 10:03
schestowitz It lives in harmony with FF. Jun 04 10:04
schestowitz @<cozub>: the problem is industry-imposed education which promotes obsession with money and material things. All those children of ours need to spend a month in Tibet and learn about culture, life, society, not TV and XBox. Jun 04 10:05
cozub schestowitz: U live in the UK? Jun 04 10:08
schestowitz Yes, it’s rainy a lot of the time, but I live indoors. :-) Jun 04 10:09
moparx a lot of people don’t seem to care about Firefox forcing the EULA. I had made a blog post stating that it was behavior indicative of proprietary software and the only response I got was basicall “so what” Jun 04 10:09
ZiggyFish schestowitz: I would guess your a German? Jun 04 10:10
moparx basically* Jun 04 10:10
cozub and I thought he live in the US based on that last comment on tibet and xbox Jun 04 10:11
cozub moparx: I think the average Joe doesn’t care about licenses/freedom of software at all Jun 04 10:11
cozub at least this is my experience Jun 04 10:12
schestowitz Yes, my citizenship is German. Some of my family is in the US Jun 04 10:12
cozub a bit sad, that it Jun 04 10:12
schestowitz Most people don’t understand freedom Jun 04 10:12
schestowitz They are taught to be this way. Jun 04 10:12
schestowitz Ask South Africans why they care about freedom and see what they don’t take for granted. Jun 04 10:12
[H]omer cozub: what’s the URL for your blog? Jun 04 10:16
cozub ehm, whose? :)) Jun 04 10:16
[H]omer sorry I mean moparx Jun 04 10:17
cozub :) Jun 04 10:17
moparx [H]omer: http://www.linuxinfusion.com/ Jun 04 10:17
[H]omer thx Jun 04 10:17
[H]omer Ah OK. I already link to your blog from mine Jun 04 10:18
[H]omer Your’s seems to be the only other article on the issue Jun 04 10:19
[H]omer ??? Jun 04 10:19
[H]omer I got a comment from one of the gNewSense devs Jun 04 10:19
[H]omer Basically saying “use the GPL” version ???? Jun 04 10:20
schestowitz Savanna has it, no? Jun 04 10:20
ZiggyFish IMHO, their is open source and there is open source. people don’t want to give away code that they have spent hours and hours, thinking, researching, coding and debugging (I’m a developer myself). Whether FF is completely open source is a matter of preference (I think the only thing that isn’t open source in FF is the a component that they are working to get rid of in the next release) Jun 04 10:20
schestowitz Facebook is faking it at the moment. Jun 04 10:21
[H]omer ZiggyFish: Certainly IceCat is Freer than Firefox. Jun 04 10:21
schestowitz I wonder if I should write a post. I have: 1) Facebook adopts the CPAL poison pill ( http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-9958180-16.html ) and http://blogs.zdnet.com/ope… ( Is Facebook an open source hero or Microsoft clone?) Jun 04 10:21
[H]omer I intensely dislike all this “IP” garbage, and Mozilla Corp. seem to be on the “IP” bandwagon Jun 04 10:22
ZiggyFish [H]omer: $0 (IceCat) compared to $0 (Firefox)? Jun 04 10:22
[H]omer Its not about money Jun 04 10:22
[H]omer Free = Freedom Jun 04 10:22
schestowitz Mozilla is a non-profit Jun 04 10:22
[H]omer Trademark restrictions take away your Freedom Jun 04 10:23
ZiggyFish exactly Jun 04 10:23
schestowitz This way it keeps its fanbois doing the marketing, Jun 04 10:23
ZiggyFish [H]omer: Also I’m talking as most developers think. Jun 04 10:25
ZiggyFish schestowitz: didn’t they just open up a bit of their software Jun 04 10:25
[H]omer I see the article made it to the front page of FSDaily http://www.fsdaily.com/Legal/Firefox_3… Jun 04 10:25
schestowitz Who, Facebook? Jun 04 10:25
ZiggyFish yeah Jun 04 10:25
schestowitz Haha. No! Jun 04 10:26
schestowitz :-) Jun 04 10:26
schestowitz It was the biggest fake I’ve seen in a hilw. Jun 04 10:26
schestowitz Arrington had a ‘leak’ last week about–wait for it– “Facebook to go Open Source” Jun 04 10:26
schestowitz Now it turns out to be just a /portion/ of the /platform/ going CPAL (yuck! GPL-incompatible too). It’s about Facebook getting free labour. Jun 04 10:27
ZiggyFish Facebook announced Monday that it is releasing a “significant” part of its platform as open-source code. The open code includes much of the social network’s platform, along with many of its most used methods and tags. Jun 04 10:27
[H]omer ZiggyFish: WRT developers … if they choose Free Software licensing, then they should *stick* to those principles, not later try to subvert them. They don’t *have* to choose those licensing terms to begin with. Jun 04 10:27
ZiggyFish [H]omer: but the Mozilla developers choose a different license, yet your trying to force the them to use a the Free Software License. Jun 04 10:29
[H]omer I kinda reminds me of Joerg Schilling switching to that abomination called the CDDL (based on the MPL) for cdrecord Jun 04 10:29
[H]omer So you’re saying that MPL is not Free Software? Jun 04 10:29
[H]omer In which case MPL licensed software should not be in GNU/Linux Jun 04 10:30
ZiggyFish [H]omer: No your saying that. what is the difference between IceCat and Firefox then? Jun 04 10:31
[H]omer IceCat does not abuse registered trademarks to take away your Freedom Jun 04 10:31
[H]omer Nor does it force EULA acceptance Jun 04 10:32
ZiggyFish [H]omer: so the MPL is not free, is it. ;) Jun 04 10:32
[H]omer Seems to be the case Jun 04 10:32
[H]omer The CDDL is similar (Solaris) Jun 04 10:32
ZiggyFish [H]omer: I’m just giving you a perspective on what a developer coming from a closed source background thinks, and IMHO these thing need to be sorted out, in order for a wider developer adoption to open source. The world revolves around money, and we can not ignore that. Jun 04 10:36
ZiggyFish We need to give developers a viable solution to that problem Jun 04 10:40
[H]omer Yes, but what I’m saying is that if developers care more about money than Freedom, then there is nothing preventing them simply starting out with proprietary licensing, instead of first fooling everyone with Free Software licensing and then subverting it with trademarks Jun 04 10:42
schestowitz This is important esp. now that Big Corps throw mud at the GPL. I’ll blog about it later. :-) Jun 04 10:42
[H]omer And I’m also aware that Mozilla’s background is proprietary (Netscape), just as Sun’s is. And yet Sun have fixed the issues that Mozilla, apparently, can not Jun 04 10:44
PetoKraus yet you see folks blaming debian for what it does.. Jun 04 10:45
[H]omer I don’t blame Debian for anything Jun 04 10:45
schestowitz A few weeks ago I asked Stallman about licences (something about MySQL) and he emphasised exactly what [h]omer says here. It needs to be more about ethical considerations, not just money. Jun 04 10:45
[H]omer ??? Jun 04 10:45
ZiggyFish [H]omer: Rome woesn’t built in a day. Also freedom does not feed the family. Jun 04 10:46
schestowitz And speaking of Debian, the money from Google and other sources did more harm than good. Jun 04 10:46
PetoKraus [H]omer: not you, but i meet people… Jun 04 10:46
[H]omer And about the “money” issue. Who says Free Software cannot make money? That’s a false dichotomy Jun 04 10:46
PetoKraus who disagree with the policy of not including FFx without rebranding it Jun 04 10:46
schestowitz Customised software is everything today. Jun 04 10:46
schestowitz People pay a fortune to have their CMSs customised and plugins/hacks written. Jun 04 10:47
PetoKraus ZiggyFish: freedom definitely doesn’t, yet, we like freedom of speech, of religion etc… Jun 04 10:47
schestowitz Some developers charge /less/ if the client permits the work to be GPLed. Jun 04 10:47
[H]omer I also intensely dislike this false stigma that Free Software is about “leaching”, and only used by “cheapskates”, and that the only way to make money from software is to infect it with this fictitious rubbish called “Intellectual Property” (Intellectual Monopoly). That’s a complete misnomer, perpetrated by archetypal corporatists. Jun 04 10:51
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: True. Jun 04 10:51
schestowitz Homer: yes, quite so. Jun 04 10:51
[H]omer Money should be made from products and services (i.e. something *real*) … *not* “licensing” Jun 04 10:52
schestowitz Sharing=bad behaviour; visibility=bad quality. Jun 04 10:52
ZiggyFish I’m only telling you what the greater developer community thinks. Jun 04 10:52
[H]omer I’m sure they do, but that doesn’t make it right Jun 04 10:53
PetoKraus but when the mentality of the people is… i’d rather use pirated version of Office 2003 than OpenOffice, which is not state-of-the-art… Jun 04 10:53
[H]omer Like I said, if they don’t like Free Software licensing, then they don’t have to use it Jun 04 10:53
moparx Hmm.. I appear to be nearly late for work. I’ll talk with you all later. :) Jun 04 10:53
[H]omer bb Jun 04 10:53
[H]omer PetroKraus: good point. It perplexes me how some people would rather violate copyrights of proprietary software, that simply use Free Software for free Jun 04 10:55
[H]omer PS: I refuse to use the term “piracy” (Arrgghh Matey) since it is meaningless Jun 04 10:55
PetoKraus :) yes, i know Jun 04 10:55
[H]omer And yet The Pirate Bay actually use it as a kind of promotion ;) Jun 04 10:56
[H]omer BTW their court case is still ongoing, I take it? Jun 04 10:56
PetoKraus who knows…. Jun 04 10:57
schestowitz Appeal, I think. Jun 04 10:57
[H]omer They seem confident, after all … they are only a *search engine*. Is the MPAA going to try to shut down Google too? Jun 04 10:57
schestowitz They start with the small boys. Jun 04 10:57
PetoKraus but they are one of the cases which show, that fighting for enforcement of copyrights as they are is lost cause… Jun 04 10:57
schestowitz Yahoo was already sued for linking. Jun 04 10:57
[H]omer Wow Jun 04 10:58
schestowitz Specifically, SEs were sued for — wait for it — search results. Jun 04 10:58
schestowitz Search for MP3 Artist, get song, yahoo accused. Jun 04 10:58
[H]omer Welcome to the New World Order Jun 04 10:58
ZiggyFish [H]omer: Microsoft would like that ;) Jun 04 10:58
schestowitz The War on ‘Piracy’ is like the War on ‘Terror’ Jun 04 10:58
[H]omer ZiggyFish: I’m sure ;) Jun 04 10:59
schestowitz Vista Will Fix Everything^R Jun 04 10:59
[H]omer lol Jun 04 10:59
cozub you mean permanent war for permanent peace? :)) Jun 04 10:59
schestowitz DRM as part of the OS(TM) ;-) Jun 04 10:59
ZiggyFish anyway what has stilling boats have to do with software ;) Jun 04 10:59
PetoKraus cozub: that’s already implemented Jun 04 10:59
[H]omer Vista is not an OS … it’s an anti-circumvention device Jun 04 10:59
schestowitz Permanent war for permanent oil supply. Jun 04 10:59
cozub there was that aptly-named article, possibly linked from schestowitz’s web – the title was something like “watch out for the copyright gestapo” Jun 04 11:00
schestowitz The MPAA gives a bad names to bad skippers. Jun 04 11:00
[H]omer ZiggyFish: Arrghh Matey. Hoist the Mainsail and garb that thar looty of MP3s Jun 04 11:00
PetoKraus :) Jun 04 11:00
schestowitz Gestapo wasn’t my analogy Jun 04 11:00
[H]omer The RI/MPAA are a bunch of self-appointed fascist nutters Jun 04 11:01
ZiggyFish [H]omer: Vista is the same as Windows XP, A marketting tool. Jun 04 11:01
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: lol Jun 04 11:01
[H]omer ya Jun 04 11:01
schestowitz [To Homer: watch how Doofie goes bananas in COLA because of the earlier posts. The trolls are nervous, methinks]. Jun 04 11:02
[H]omer Msg-ID? Jun 04 11:02
[H]omer I plonk him so I don’t see Jun 04 11:02
schestowitz Yes, Vista is XP plus a lot of marketing to hide this fact. Jun 04 11:02
PetoKraus nah Jun 04 11:02
PetoKraus i think if it WAS xp, it would not break hardware so much Jun 04 11:03
ZiggyFish schestowitz: this may be a stupid question what what is a Cola (is it like the drink) Jun 04 11:03
ZiggyFish *but what Jun 04 11:03
schestowitz There’s some fluff in Vista, but the level of bugs makes it a step back. (note: I never tried Vista) Jun 04 11:03
[H]omer Vista is WinME2 only worse and more restrictive (and more bloated, less stable, fewer drivers, fewer compatible software titles, etc) Jun 04 11:03
ZiggyFish schestowitz: you don’t want to Jun 04 11:03
ZiggyFish trust me Jun 04 11:03
PetoKraus i did, @ work Jun 04 11:04
PetoKraus haha! Jun 04 11:04
schestowitz COLA is an unmoderated Linux Advocacy newsgroups. Microsoftt Munchkins have a field trip there. Jun 04 11:04
[H]omer I tried the promo download copy of Vista once … OMG is sucked … badly Jun 04 11:04
schestowitz They already play up “7″ Jun 04 11:04
schestowitz Another Vista. Jun 04 11:04
schestowitz A year ago they said it would be revolutionary. Just. Wait. Bear. With. Us. Don’t go. That’s Microsoft’s plot anyway. Jun 04 11:05
[H]omer Remember the day Vista released RTM … it was chaos on COLA Jun 04 11:05
[H]omer The shills were out in full force Jun 04 11:05
PetoKraus RTM? Jun 04 11:05
schestowitz Oh god yeah! I was an assault. yttrx said it happens every time there’s a release. Jun 04 11:05
[H]omer All for nothing … in the end Vista was a total disaster Jun 04 11:05
ZiggyFish I’ve brought 2 laptops with vista installed. After 4 hours. for it’s first boot. I quickly had linux(ubuntu) running within half an hour Jun 04 11:05
[H]omer RTM = “Release To Manufacturing” Jun 04 11:06
schestowitz Microsoft blew 0$.5 billion on marketing Vista at the start. Jun 04 11:06
cozub schestowitz: I was refering to this http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2008/0526.shtml Jun 04 11:06
PetoKraus ZiggyFish: mine was with Vista as well. It was slow… REally. Jun 04 11:06
cozub took me a while to dig it up… you referenced it in http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05… Jun 04 11:06
ZiggyFish [H]omer: doesn’t RTM = release to media ;) Jun 04 11:06
PetoKraus and it’s freaking Core 2 Duo with 2GB RAM! Jun 04 11:06
schestowitz Oh yeah… I saw that too. The wording is a tad strong. Almost Godwin-verging. Jun 04 11:06
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: same Jun 04 11:07
PetoKraus schestowitz: they had a nice firework up here…. Jun 04 11:07
schestowitz Did it bloe? Jun 04 11:07
PetoKraus with big burning WOW on the river bank Jun 04 11:07
[H]omer ZiggyFish: not according to Microsoft’s definition. But then they redefine *everything* anyway. Like “Open” for example Jun 04 11:07
schestowitz blow? Jun 04 11:07
schestowitz Eggs in face? Jun 04 11:07
PetoKraus schestowitz: not really. Jun 04 11:07
PetoKraus the fireworks were nice, though Jun 04 11:07
*ZiggyFish agrees with [H]omer Jun 04 11:07
schestowitz Well, Microsoft is still useful for entertainment then. Jun 04 11:07
PetoKraus let’s keep it as virtual-machine pet, then. Jun 04 11:08
schestowitz pet pig maybe. Jun 04 11:08
PetoKraus i wouldn’t eat THAT mean Jun 04 11:08
[H]omer lol Jun 04 11:08
PetoKraus *t Jun 04 11:08
schestowitz “Man who virtualises Viista put pig on RAM” Jun 04 11:09
[H]omer Microsoft mean is full of FAT Jun 04 11:09
ZiggyFish schestowitz: yeah, as long as they keep they don’t explode ;) Jun 04 11:09
[H]omer Ohh, I made a funny Jun 04 11:09
ZiggyFish [H]omer: how Jun 04 11:09
PetoKraus i’ve seen the review, how one guy managed to put Vista on that EEEpc Jun 04 11:09
PetoKraus christ, that was funny Jun 04 11:09
[H]omer “Microsoft meat is full of FAT” I mean Jun 04 11:09
ZiggyFish lol Jun 04 11:09
schestowitz If they make SUSE bloted , that’ll ruin other distros too. Jun 04 11:10
schestowitz Look what they do with Mono. Jun 04 11:10
PetoKraus yeah… Jun 04 11:10
schestowitz I mean, I read recently that the Mono devs’ benchmarks contradict the reality. Jun 04 11:10
[H]omer Gah … Mono. Don’t talk to me about Mono Jun 04 11:10
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: wow, that would of been interesting, seeing the Vista on EEEpc. Jun 04 11:10
PetoKraus i don’t know what’s that even good for Jun 04 11:10
[H]omer Freakin Mono needs to die Jun 04 11:10
schestowitz They;ll port over DRM. Jun 04 11:10
schestowitz Trust me, Novell will bring DRM to GNOME. Jun 04 11:11
[H]omer Wonderful Jun 04 11:11
[H]omer I believe it Jun 04 11:11
schestowitz Just a matter of time. Jun 04 11:11
PetoKraus i use enlightenment Jun 04 11:11
PetoKraus i DONT care. Jun 04 11:11
schestowitz I wrote about this several times and a professor warned me about this too. Jun 04 11:11
ZiggyFish [H]omer: that’s another topic. I’ll leave for another day (mono) Jun 04 11:11
PetoKraus http://www.modaco.com/content/… Jun 04 11:11
[H]omer PetroKraus: Enlightenment is BSD licensed though Jun 04 11:11
[H]omer PetroKraus: God almighty Jun 04 11:12
[H]omer PetroKraus: Vista on an Eee Jun 04 11:12
[H]omer Gah Jun 04 11:12
schestowitz Elephant in the room = Vista on Eee PC Jun 04 11:12
PetoKraus i wonder Jun 04 11:12
PetoKraus Vista on XO Jun 04 11:12
[H]omer Portable Hippo Jun 04 11:12
[H]omer The software weighs a ton and gets very “angry” Jun 04 11:13
schestowitz One thing I’ve realised as I posed to COLA is that I can’t remember which is which when it comes to Linux laptops. Jun 04 11:14
PetoKraus [H]omer: i am not really sure, but i think E17 is GPL Jun 04 11:14
schestowitz They are everywhere, esp. after all the giants started envying ASUS. Jun 04 11:14
[H]omer PetroKraus: If that’s true then I’m a very happy man Jun 04 11:14
PetoKraus no one from the channel ops seems to be online now, though Jun 04 11:15
schestowitz The guy who runs it manages to cover expenses using donations, I think. Jun 04 11:15
[H]omer Gotta go do some work. Back L8R. Jun 04 11:15
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: Vista run slow on EEEPC Jun 04 11:16
cozub s/EEEPC/any normal box/ Jun 04 11:16
cozub :) Jun 04 11:16
PetoKraus nah Jun 04 11:17
PetoKraus it’s slow even on T9300 w 3GB ram Jun 04 11:17
PetoKraus compared to about anything Jun 04 11:17
schestowitz My PC at home has just .0.25GB of RAM. Jun 04 11:17
PetoKraus my pc at home has .5 Jun 04 11:18
PetoKraus [H]omer: ok, they’ve replied. It’s BSD, unfortunately ;) Jun 04 11:18
ZiggyFish schestowitz: what distribution do you use on that? Jun 04 11:18
PetoKraus don’t say ubuntu, please. Jun 04 11:19
schestowitz At home it’s Ubuntu 7.04 only with KDE 3.5.x Jun 04 11:19
PetoKraus :) yeah. Jun 04 11:20
schestowitz I just needed something for apt-get and couldn’t get any other CD. Jun 04 11:20
ZiggyFish schestowitz: nice. Jun 04 11:20
schestowitz All distros are the same Jun 04 11:20
schestowitz Same components really. Jun 04 11:20
schestowitz I apt-get install kde-desktop no matter what’s installed, unless it’s already there. Jun 04 11:20
ZiggyFish the best distribution I’ve seen when it comes to low powered PC, is… Jun 04 11:21
ZiggyFish TinyMe Jun 04 11:21
schestowitz It looks decent. I saw about a dozen reviews. Jun 04 11:22
ZiggyFish it can run on a machine with 64 MB of ram (and still not use swap) Jun 04 11:22
PetoKraus well, that’s nice. Jun 04 11:22
schestowitz PCLOS seems OK to me, but the Ubuntu hype is used against the ‘supposedly’ non-supported players. Jun 04 11:22
PetoKraus though i guess anything using something else than Xorg and KDE/Gnome can do that… Jun 04 11:22
ZiggyFish I tried it in a VM and set the memory to 64 MB and it runs as fast as 256 MB of memory Jun 04 11:23
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: it uses OpenBox Jun 04 11:23
PetoKraus guhh, i wanted to go out 3 hours ago Jun 04 11:24
ZiggyFish lol. Jun 04 11:24
PetoKraus then MAtlock started…. and after two hours – to be continued Jun 04 11:24
PetoKraus guh. I guess i’ll go now… Jun 04 11:24
schestowitz See you soon. Jun 04 11:24
PetoKraus it’s unbelievable how some pages get spammed within a week Jun 04 11:25
PetoKraus i got back home, and in 5 days i didn’t read much news – more than 180 feeds. Jun 04 11:25
PetoKraus (/. accounts for a half.) Jun 04 11:26
ZiggyFish wow Jun 04 11:26
ZiggyFish It takes me around 2hrs to read the morning news each day Jun 04 11:27
schestowitz There was an article yesterday about news overload. There are many, I know. Jun 04 11:27
ZiggyFish 51 feeds I have Jun 04 11:28
PetoKraus well, mayonnaise in 30 degrees of celsius is NOT the best food… Jun 04 11:28
schestowitz Not if it’s *kept *in these conditions. Jun 04 11:29
ZiggyFish out of the 51 I only get to read 13 feeds fully Jun 04 11:29
schestowitz Find comfort inn the fact that about 100,000,000 more feeds are unread. There’s a limit to everyone’s capacity. Jun 04 11:29
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: I’m not a mayonnaise eating person Jun 04 11:29
ZiggyFish yeah, I always read the articles on OOXML. That story has always interested me Jun 04 11:31
PetoKraus it’s funny. Jun 04 11:31
PetoKraus and terrible Jun 04 11:31
ZiggyFish yeah Jun 04 11:31
ZiggyFish what feed reader do you guys use? Jun 04 11:31
PetoKraus i’ve written to my country’s body dealing with standards Jun 04 11:32
ZiggyFish I use Liferea Jun 04 11:32
PetoKraus same Jun 04 11:32
PetoKraus because Slovakia abstained from voting back in september Jun 04 11:32
schestowitz OOXML is  a rare opportunity. It shows Microsoft for the <put something here> that it is. Jun 04 11:32
PetoKraus i wanted to know why… they did reply, that they are not competent to answer my query and they’ll move my request to their boss…. Jun 04 11:33
PetoKraus got no reply afterwards. Jun 04 11:33
schestowitz I use Thunderbird. I used RSSOwl before, but development was slow. Jun 04 11:33
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: what was the question you asked? Jun 04 11:33
schestowitz All these queries matter when they amass a volume. Then it’s hard to ignore. Jun 04 11:33
PetoKraus why did we abstain from voting in september… Jun 04 11:34
schestowitz Which country? Jun 04 11:34
PetoKraus i mean, there has to be some reason Jun 04 11:34
PetoKraus slovakia Jun 04 11:34
PetoKraus we didn’t even submit our vote Jun 04 11:34
schestowitz I can’t remember incidents from there. Jun 04 11:34
PetoKraus well, none. Jun 04 11:34
ZiggyFish schestowitz: I’ve been using eveolution lately for email (because it’s intergrated with GNOME). Jun 04 11:34
schestowitz Abstain=good for Microsoft. Jun 04 11:34
PetoKraus sure. Jun 04 11:34
schestowitz As in: “do whatever, we don’t resist it” Jun 04 11:35
PetoKraus but we are one of the few countries in europe… and were one of the first ones, where ODF, RTF and PDF are used as document formats Jun 04 11:35
schestowitz They tried this in Poland too. Jun 04 11:35
schestowitz Microsoft puppet on they face of it. They fooled voters. Jun 04 11:35
schestowitz The EU investigates this ATM. Jun 04 11:35
PetoKraus i am yet waiting for my first ODF document to get from the gov’t – they mostly use RTF, since it’s compatible, and PDF… Jun 04 11:36
schestowitz They could just make it all Web-based and avoid the paper trail. Jun 04 11:36
PetoKraus we don’t trust web yet Jun 04 11:36
PetoKraus no valid legislature for digital signatures… Jun 04 11:37
ZiggyFish OpenOffice (2.4) can read OOXML quite well. I only had issues with 1/5 of the documents I tried to open Jun 04 11:37
schestowitz Isn’t it Slovakia where they thought of Web-based voting? Jun 04 11:37
*ZiggyFish ducks Jun 04 11:37
schestowitz IE+ActiveX. Jun 04 11:37
PetoKraus internet shops require bank transactions, payment on delivery, rarely pay pal, payment by credit card is unsupported, since most of the cards don’t have the security code… Jun 04 11:37
PetoKraus schestowitz: i don’t think so… Jun 04 11:38
ZiggyFish PetoKraus: well acording to roys list, Slovakia (Phone: +421 2 60 29 44 74): Jun 04 11:38
ZiggyFish     * OOXML: What Happened in the Czech Republic? Jun 04 11:38
ZiggyFish     * It’s OpenDocument All the Way for Holland (and Other Office Suites News) Jun 04 11:38
schestowitz That’s like saying you can eat soil without getting diarrhoea. Jun 04 11:38
PetoKraus ZiggyFish: yes, it doesn’t say anything about slovakia Jun 04 11:38
schestowitz It doesn’t mean OOXML was needed. It’s duplication of effort and a ramp for proprietary Windows-only addons. Jun 04 11:38
PetoKraus there’s “czechoslovakia” references Jun 04 11:38
ZiggyFish My boss sent me stuff in OOXML format Jun 04 11:39
schestowitz You should ask for the binary former, IMHO. Pretend you can’t open it. Jun 04 11:39
schestowitz format, not former. Jun 04 11:39
ZiggyFish schestowitz: true, the one I had an issue with, I ask him to resend it as a PDF. Jun 04 11:40
schestowitz Fidelity is higher with the blobs, so if you spoil the boss, s/he’ll take for granted that OOXML is OK. Jun 04 11:40
PetoKraus i am gonna play some warcraft Jun 04 11:41
PetoKraus see ya later Jun 04 11:41
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