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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 5th, 2009 – Part 1

Posted in IRC Logs at 12:53 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


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balzac photoshop, flash, dreamweaver *and* ASP, MS SQL, windows server administration Apr 05 00:00
balzac not to mention 3dsmax Apr 05 00:00
Balrog_ well, of all those, photoshop and flash and 3dsmax are probably still viable Apr 05 00:00
balzac i was going to learn to use all of that Apr 05 00:00
balzac i don’t use any of it anymore Apr 05 00:00
Balrog_ although 3dsmax is considered very messy Apr 05 00:00
oiaohm I went a different path. Apr 05 00:01
oiaohm I added up the cost of closed source of what I do said O boy cannot aford that. Apr 05 00:01
oiaohm Then found open source tools that did it all for free. Apr 05 00:01
balzac I thought I’d be able to buy licenses after I got a great job in some special-effects shop Apr 05 00:01
MinceR i didn’t have any income nor the means to even buy most of the sw i used Apr 05 00:02
balzac until then, I was just thrilled to have copies of it with dongle-cracks Apr 05 00:02
Balrog_ balzac: much of that software is timed-licence Apr 05 00:02
balzac now I wouldn’t pay one nickel for a collection of proprietary software binaries Apr 05 00:02
Balrog_ so you rent it, not buy it Apr 05 00:02
oiaohm I have had to yes dongle-cracks Apr 05 00:02
oiaohm yes/use Apr 05 00:02
oiaohm Because dongles broke. Apr 05 00:02
Balrog_ I can get proprietary software legally from several sources Apr 05 00:02
MinceR well now i can too Apr 05 00:03
MinceR but i don’t really need it Apr 05 00:03
oiaohm Now you can. Apr 05 00:03
oiaohm Proprietary are getting desprate. Apr 05 00:03
MinceR at least commodity sw Apr 05 00:03
oiaohm All I have to do is enrol in a course and I get all of MS and Adobe for nothering. Apr 05 00:03
Balrog_ the big problem with open sourcing a lot of proprietary sw is shared code Apr 05 00:04
MinceR operating systems, office apps, stuff like that Apr 05 00:04
oiaohm And claim the course back on my tax return. Apr 05 00:04
Balrog_ and patents Apr 05 00:04
Balrog_ oiaohm: where are you located? Apr 05 00:04
oiaohm Australia Apr 05 00:04
MinceR oiaohm: do people exploit that? :) Apr 05 00:04
oiaohm MS and Adobe is basically dumping software on education at the monent.  Hell yes. Apr 05 00:05
Balrog_ well, MS more Apr 05 00:05
Balrog_ here, we have to PAY for adobe software for education Apr 05 00:05
Balrog_ less than retail, but still a few hundred at least Apr 05 00:05
oiaohm That was last year. Apr 05 00:05
balzac oiaohm: met a new bartender from australia in one of the bars I frequent Apr 05 00:05
Balrog_ they changed it? Apr 05 00:05
balzac I had to ask her for a Fosters Apr 05 00:06
oiaohm Here they did. Apr 05 00:06
Balrog_ oiaohm: are you sure they’re not paying for a site license? Apr 05 00:06
balzac Also asked if I could call her “Sheila”. Apr 05 00:06
oiaohm Education licence includes home usage balzac Apr 05 00:06
balzac “put another shrimp on the barbie”, I said. She said they call em prawns. Apr 05 00:07
MinceR but not usage for profit? Apr 05 00:07
Balrog_ oiaohm: but you have to pay for an educational license ….. Apr 05 00:07
oiaohm Course last 12 months exactly the same ammount of time as the tax. Apr 05 00:07
oiaohm Nop Balrog_ Apr 05 00:07
Balrog_ where? j/w Apr 05 00:07
Balrog_ (URL) Apr 05 00:07
oiaohm Software is provided as part of studing. Apr 05 00:07
oiaohm Tafe system and Uni systems.  Most campes here. Apr 05 00:08
Balrog_ hrm. that’s probably an MSDN-AA style arrangement, where the school is paying Apr 05 00:08
oiaohm Yep Apr 05 00:08
oiaohm On a per student base. Apr 05 00:08
oiaohm No matter how many machines are installed with it. Apr 05 00:08
MinceR we have that too Apr 05 00:08
MinceR campus, msdn — and the taxpayers are paying. Apr 05 00:08
Balrog_ we have that, except that my school has two computer departments Apr 05 00:08
Balrog_ one gets it, the other doesn’t Apr 05 00:08
oiaohm Australians Apr 05 00:09
Balrog_ (a general computer services department, and the computer science department) Apr 05 00:09
oiaohm If there is a way to get cheep software they do. Apr 05 00:09
oiaohm Its really funny. Apr 05 00:11
oiaohm Under the MSDN-AA its under 100 AUD per year to give students access to all MS software. Apr 05 00:12
oiaohm Yet buying educuational versions of the same software would set you back over 1000 dollars for a single machine. Apr 05 00:12
oiaohm MS pricing is crap. Apr 05 00:13
Balrog_ the whole school pays 100AUD per year? or is that per student? Apr 05 00:13
oiaohm per student. Apr 05 00:13
Balrog_ hrm. Apr 05 00:13
oiaohm I am allowed to claim upto 500 dollars are year on training through the tax system. Apr 05 00:14
oiaohm And I can enrol and claim just before I have to do tax return. Apr 05 00:14
oiaohm Basically goverment is paying for everything. Apr 05 00:14
oiaohm Kinda makes it hard to get open source off the ground here. Apr 05 00:15
Balrog_ :( Apr 05 00:16
oiaohm So not as lucky where you are Balrog_ Apr 05 00:16
Balrog_ I see. Apr 05 00:17
Balrog_ Here the IT people hate MS Apr 05 00:17
oiaohm I hate MS Apr 05 00:17
Balrog_ but they can’t get rid of it : Apr 05 00:17
Balrog_ :( Apr 05 00:17
oiaohm Same Apr 05 00:17
oiaohm Linux is just missing key bits to take over a business network. Apr 05 00:17
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oiaohm Until then least money going to microsoft the better is my idea Balrog_ Apr 05 00:18
Balrog_ yes. Here they use 95% linux servers though Apr 05 00:18
Balrog_ yes, I’m not purchasing any MS products Apr 05 00:18
oiaohm Its bit like the stupid question how much does 10 copyies of vista cost. Apr 05 00:19
oiaohm Basically as much as you are dumb enough to pay. Apr 05 00:19
_Hicham_ oiaohm : everybody pays for Vista Apr 05 00:20
oiaohm I have seen a copy of Vista volume for under 15 dollars. Apr 05 00:20
_Hicham_ where that oiaohm? Apr 05 00:20
_Hicham_ there in Australia? Apr 05 00:21
oiaohm Supprising how much threating to switch to Linux and being able to for a business made the Vista price just drop. Apr 05 00:21
_Hicham_ Vista price is null now Apr 05 00:22
_Hicham_ Vista is a null pointer Apr 05 00:22
oiaohm Remember a vista volume includes the right to install XP. Apr 05 00:22
oiaohm Instead. Apr 05 00:22
oiaohm You are normally not buying them for Vista. Apr 05 00:23
oiaohm Yet MS classes every Vista volume licence as a Vista sale. Apr 05 00:23
_Hicham_ Vista is dead Apr 05 00:24
Balrog_ yes :/ Apr 05 00:24
Balrog_ web stats are more accurate, probably Apr 05 00:24
oiaohm Worse Apr 05 00:24
oiaohm Windows 7 is designed to upgrade from Vista no XP Apr 05 00:24
oiaohm Things are going to get interesting to say the least. Apr 05 00:25
Balrog_ http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/200… Apr 05 00:25
oiaohm I am expecting lot of upset people before end of year. Apr 05 00:25
Balrog_ firefox 3 has surpassed IE 7 in Europe Apr 05 00:25
Balrog_ IE 6 is still used a lot Apr 05 00:25
MinceR they deserve to be upset if they still want to use windows :> Apr 05 00:25
oiaohm Hmm that looks very much like the SSL sites graphic. Apr 05 00:27
oiaohm I think we have a converance. Apr 05 00:27
oiaohm More firefox usage more servers using Linux. Apr 05 00:27
Balrog_ IE is steadly losing ground Apr 05 00:28
_Hicham_ vive Firefox Apr 05 00:28
oiaohm So is windows server in the SSL market Apr 05 00:28
MinceR gn Apr 05 00:28
oiaohm http://news.netcraft.com/archives/…   << I like that netcraft has had to make a new benchmark Apr 05 00:29
oiaohm The old ones have been stuffed by qq.com. Apr 05 00:29
DaemonFC Firefox is crap, but IE is beyond crap Apr 05 00:30
DaemonFC so yay Firefox Apr 05 00:30
oiaohm At the rate qq.com is growning domains it will be the most dominate domain holder by end of year. Apr 05 00:30
oiaohm And no one knows what OS qq.com is using. Apr 05 00:30
_Hicham_ I still have to use IE from time to time Apr 05 00:30
Balrog_ isn’t qq.com using modified apache? Apr 05 00:30
oiaohm We are not even sure of that Balrog_ Apr 05 00:31
Balrog_ hrm. Apr 05 00:31
oiaohm modified apache is a guess. Apr 05 00:31
oiaohm http://www.acme.com/software/thttpd/  Performance shape matches a non appache Apr 05 00:31
_Hicham_ oiaohm : u never recovered data for them? Apr 05 00:32
oiaohm Not yet.  If I do get a chance it will be interesting to find out. Apr 05 00:32
oiaohm MS has depended on just buying domains to keep there netcraft numbers up. Apr 05 00:33
oiaohm qq.com is also doing the same thing. Apr 05 00:33
balzac http://www.buzzfeed.com/expreside… Apr 05 00:34
oiaohm I like that only about 19 percent of sites people visit are IIS Apr 05 00:34
oiaohm And 66 percent are appache. Apr 05 00:34
oiaohm MS is for sure not the most dominate in webspace. Apr 05 00:34
DaemonFC that’s cause all they can do is ape things that have nearly impenatrable mindshare Apr 05 00:35
DaemonFC and can’t subvert them with hidden APIs and other dirty tricks Apr 05 00:35
DaemonFC cause they’re web-based Apr 05 00:35
DaemonFC Apache runs on Windows too Apr 05 00:37
DaemonFC Microsoft is also a member of the Apache foundation Apr 05 00:37
oiaohm I think that is more that MS is waking up they have lost the war there. Apr 05 00:37
DaemonFC they’ve given up trying to fight Linux as a platform and instead have focused on getting its killer apps running great on Windows Apr 05 00:38
DaemonFC which is a good move, for them Apr 05 00:38
DaemonFC customers were not moving to Linux cause it’s cheaper Apr 05 00:38
DaemonFC cause it’s not Apr 05 00:38
DaemonFC they were going there cause the apps they wanted were there Apr 05 00:39
oiaohm Its both. Apr 05 00:39
Balrog_ hrm … Linux is not cheaper? Maintenance wise, it is Apr 05 00:39
DaemonFC RHEL is more expensive to roll out than Windows Apr 05 00:39
Balrog_ we use Fedora Apr 05 00:39
oiaohm MS Cal system is the problem. Apr 05 00:39
oiaohm In large networks. Apr 05 00:39
DaemonFC well, Fedora is stupid to use on anything important Apr 05 00:39
DaemonFC it regularly has bugs getting introduced and then fixes Apr 05 00:40
DaemonFC and there’s no support for it Apr 05 00:40
oiaohm RHEL slight more expensive is very quicky undone when you get over 100 cals. Apr 05 00:40
DaemonFC *fixed Apr 05 00:40
DaemonFC Fedora is not something you want to have to trust Apr 05 00:40
Balrog_ well somehow we survive with Fedora Apr 05 00:40
Balrog_ :) Apr 05 00:40
oiaohm Large end have major problems with MS pricing. Apr 05 00:40
Balrog_ :) Apr 05 00:40
Balrog_ :) Apr 05 00:40
oiaohm Low end yes its the apps Apr 05 00:41
DaemonFC you should be using CentOS Apr 05 00:41
DaemonFC if you don’t need paid support Apr 05 00:41
Balrog_ I don’t make these decisions Apr 05 00:41
oiaohm MS basically has two problems. Apr 05 00:41
Balrog_ DaemonFC: Fedora works good. Apr 05 00:41
oiaohm Other thing ever tried clustering windows. Apr 05 00:41
oiaohm Things are not fun. Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFC Fedora has lots of bugs Apr 05 00:42
_Hicham_ I am using Fedora right now Apr 05 00:42
_Hicham_ Fedora just rocks Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFC they get fixed about as often as new ones appear Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFC it’s not a stable platform Apr 05 00:42
oiaohm TCO on a cluster  Linux wins. Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFC they’ll even tell you that Apr 05 00:42
Balrog_ well, somehow having all the critical servers running fedora works for us. Apr 05 00:42
_Hicham_ it is bleeding edge Apr 05 00:42
_Hicham_ lot of servers run fedora Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFC meh, good for them? Apr 05 00:42
DaemonFC It’s not a headache I want Apr 05 00:43
oiaohm There is worse. Apr 05 00:43
_Hicham_ what distro do u use? Apr 05 00:43
oiaohm Server build from gentoo is worse. Apr 05 00:43
_Hicham_ DaemonFC never said its favorite distro Apr 05 00:43
Balrog_ I use gentoo and it works fine. Apr 05 00:44
DaemonFC right now I’m on Ubuntu’s development branch with a kernel I built from GIT Apr 05 00:44
DaemonFC and it’s mroe stable than anything I’ve used from Fedora Apr 05 00:44
oiaohm As long as you don’t have one person tweek a incorrect build option Balrog_ Apr 05 00:44
DaemonFC distribution kernels are the devil Apr 05 00:45
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DaemonFC if you don’t do anything else, get rid of that Apr 05 00:45
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_Hicham_1 oiaohm : did u use fedora ? Apr 05 01:04
Balrog_ oiaohm: we don’t rebuild kernels Apr 05 01:05
_Hicham_1 Balrog_ : why? Apr 05 01:05
_Hicham_1 lack of time? Apr 05 01:05
Balrog_ no need Apr 05 01:05
_Hicham_1 why no need? Apr 05 01:06
_Hicham_1 it can be optimized for ur needs Apr 05 01:06
Balrog_ yes I know Apr 05 01:07
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oiaohm I have used Fedora Apr 05 01:09
_Hicham_1 oiaohm : how do u rank yum compared to apt? Apr 05 01:09
oiaohm For basic web server fine for more complex stuff where many servers are involved it becomes trouble some. Apr 05 01:09
oiaohm Because the likes of ldap are not aways properly tested under Fedora Apr 05 01:10
oiaohm So can lead to interesting and strange problems. Apr 05 01:10
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oiaohm Centos is blood releation is fine. Apr 05 01:10
oiaohm yum and apt both sux in there own way. Apr 05 01:10
_Hicham_1 apt sucks? Apr 05 01:10
oiaohm Really goes down to the package format. Apr 05 01:11
oiaohm deb allowes configure on install rpm does not Apr 05 01:11
oiaohm Depending on what you are doing sometimes you want the configure on install. Apr 05 01:11
_Hicham_1 apt is faster than yum Apr 05 01:11
_Hicham_1 according to my experience Apr 05 01:11
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oiaohm apt on deb Apr 05 01:11
_Hicham_1 yes Apr 05 01:12
oiaohm With configure on install messages comming up. Apr 05 01:12
oiaohm Can be a minor pain in but at times. Apr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1 yes Apr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1 like showing licenses Apr 05 01:12
oiaohm Yep Apr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1 for examples Sun Java license Apr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1 or configuring new kernels Apr 05 01:12
_Hicham_1 allowing u to choose what to do to menu.lst Apr 05 01:13
oiaohm Nothing is perfect. Apr 05 01:13
_Hicham_1 I know Apr 05 01:13
oiaohm I really wish deb and rpm would just bit the bullet and merge. Apr 05 01:13
_Hicham_1 but deb format is very simple compared to rpm Apr 05 01:13
oiaohm Taking the best features from both. Apr 05 01:13
oiaohm Neither is techically better than the othr. Apr 05 01:14
Balrog_ rpm is very powerful Apr 05 01:14
_Hicham_1 it will never happen Apr 05 01:14
Balrog_ and yum makes it even more powerful Apr 05 01:14
_Hicham_1 Balrog_ : depends on what powerful means Apr 05 01:14
oiaohm rpm5.org is heading down the path to merge. Apr 05 01:14
oiaohm Single package manager handling either rpm or deb packages. Apr 05 01:14
oiaohm Last bit is really unify the file formats. Apr 05 01:15
_Hicham_1 Debian won’t ever let down deb format Apr 05 01:15
oiaohm Balrog_ There have been years of debates of RPM vs DEB in LSB packaging mailing list. Apr 05 01:15
_Hicham_1 it is the basement of Debian Apr 05 01:15
oiaohm Debian as already said they would drop deb. Apr 05 01:16
_Hicham_1 LSB recommends rpm Apr 05 01:16
oiaohm If the replacement provided the same feature set. Apr 05 01:16
oiaohm RPM does not. Apr 05 01:16
_Hicham_1 oiaohm : when did Debian said that? Apr 05 01:16
_Hicham_1 said/say Apr 05 01:16
oiaohm 2002 first and about 6 time since in packaging talks at LSB. Apr 05 01:16
oiaohm Deb is not exactly important to them. Apr 05 01:17
oiaohm Its the features. Apr 05 01:17
_Hicham_1 then the new format will be backwards compatible Apr 05 01:17
oiaohm Like call the package manager activate the programs configurations tools. Apr 05 01:17
oiaohm No they don’t care about backwards compatible. Apr 05 01:18
oiaohm They made that more than clear. Apr 05 01:18
_Hicham_1 but rpm still doesn’t provide configure on install Apr 05 01:18
oiaohm If the package format has all the features they use + more they would drop theres in a hart beat. Apr 05 01:18
oiaohm It would basically become a legacy format only. Apr 05 01:18
oiaohm Debian is not the road block on packaging as such. Apr 05 01:19
oiaohm As some RPM people try to make out. Apr 05 01:19
_Hicham_1 then rpm should provide all the features of deb Apr 05 01:20
oiaohm Debian even has a exact list they want meet for them to drop deb for good. Apr 05 01:20
_Hicham_1 what did LSB say? Apr 05 01:20
oiaohm Reason why LSB allows packaging as RPM and DEB at this stage. Apr 05 01:20
oiaohm Both can be offical marked as LSB binaries. Apr 05 01:21
_Hicham_1 so rpm is trying to provide what Debian requires? Apr 05 01:21
oiaohm rpm5.org is going a different path. Apr 05 01:21
_Hicham_1 how ? Apr 05 01:22
oiaohm First make a package manager that don’t care what is feed in ie deb or rpm it will install both. Apr 05 01:22
oiaohm So legacy support exists. Apr 05 01:22
oiaohm then worry about merging the formats. Apr 05 01:22
oiaohm Why I say I wish the merge would just happen. Apr 05 01:22
oiaohm So we can say by by to rpm and deb. Apr 05 01:22
_Hicham_1 yes, that would be great Apr 05 01:23
_Hicham_1 especially for commercial applications Apr 05 01:23
oiaohm LSB is also working on plan B Apr 05 01:23
_Hicham_1 packaging is one of the blocking roads to Linux Unification Apr 05 01:23
oiaohm Embed dynmaic link loader in executable. Apr 05 01:23
oiaohm So binary installer can always work. Apr 05 01:24
oiaohm If we cannot get package manger developers to agree by pass the bastards. Apr 05 01:24
_Hicham_1 so u r proposing a method like Windows? Apr 05 01:24
_Hicham_1 rely on the binary installer? Apr 05 01:25
oiaohm That is plan b if plan a is not quick enough. Apr 05 01:26
oiaohm Binary installer will have the means to use the package database if allowed to register and install through. Apr 05 01:27
oiaohm Basically something is going to happen to the packaging problem one way or the other. Apr 05 01:27
oiaohm LSB is not mucking around any more. Apr 05 01:27
_Hicham_1 Plan B will never happen Apr 05 01:28
_Hicham_1 personally, I can’t trust a binary installer Apr 05 01:28
oiaohm Plan B code is over 70 percent complete. Apr 05 01:28
_Hicham_1 this will make Linux another Windows Apr 05 01:28
oiaohm Plan A is no where near there. Apr 05 01:29
oiaohm If package manager makers cannot get along they leave no other option. Apr 05 01:29
_Hicham_1 no distro will abide by that Apr 05 01:30
_Hicham_1 there is already autopackage Apr 05 01:30
_Hicham_1 did u use autopackage? Apr 05 01:30
_Hicham_1 autopackage brings Windows approach to Linux Apr 05 01:30
oiaohm Package so far developed by LSB does not need any Distribution dependancies other than the Linux kernel. Apr 05 01:30
oiaohm So Distrobutions have not a single word they can say to stop plan B Apr 05 01:30
oiaohm It is the out come if they don’t get there backsides in order. Apr 05 01:31
oiaohm LSB is not playing. Apr 05 01:31
oiaohm 8 years of trying to get distributions to agree on packages they are sick of it. Apr 05 01:31
oiaohm If making it worse is required so be it. Apr 05 01:32
_Hicham_1 will they force the distros to? Apr 05 01:32
oiaohm LSB binarys after the alterations are able to operate completely indendpant to what the distribution provides. Apr 05 01:33
oiaohm So distribtions will really not have a say. Apr 05 01:33
oiaohm ISV want a install everywhere solution and they will get it. Apr 05 01:33
oiaohm Either Distrobutions step up to plate and do it or be disreguard. Apr 05 01:34
_Hicham_1 it is very hard Apr 05 01:34
oiaohm LSB has tried nice for 8 years. Apr 05 01:35
_Hicham_1 can they force distros to? Apr 05 01:35
oiaohm They don’t need to. Apr 05 01:35
_Hicham_1 how? Apr 05 01:35
oiaohm The packages only depend on one thing the Linux kernel. Apr 05 01:35
oiaohm After that they are able to do there own thing. Apr 05 01:36
_Hicham_1 it is autopackage then Apr 05 01:36
oiaohm Linux kernel has always had this feature designed in. Apr 05 01:36
_Hicham_1 did u use autopackage? Apr 05 01:36
oiaohm Not exactly. Apr 05 01:36
_Hicham_1 how? Apr 05 01:36
oiaohm autopackage wraps into a native package. Apr 05 01:36
oiaohm These installers don’t. Apr 05 01:36
DaemonFC AutoPackage is a bad idea Apr 05 01:36
DaemonFC creates conflicts with your distributions package manager Apr 05 01:37
_Hicham_1 is this ready? Apr 05 01:37
oiaohm If distribution does not provide a registration interface of package kit they will not know what files have been installed. Apr 05 01:37
oiaohm As I say this will make a mess. Apr 05 01:37
oiaohm LSB don’t care any more. Apr 05 01:37
DaemonFC And like I said yesterday, LSB simply introduces more bugs into distros when they try to work around bugs in the LSB test suite Apr 05 01:37
oiaohm LSB applications will be able to operate in there own directory independant to what distrobution provides. Apr 05 01:38
_Hicham_1 is there any available LSB apps? Apr 05 01:38
oiaohm Yes there are _Hicham_1 Apr 05 01:38
_Hicham_1 give me one for example Apr 05 01:39
oiaohm Orcale database. Apr 05 01:39
oiaohm And its support tools. Apr 05 01:39
oiaohm StarOffice. Apr 05 01:39
oiaohm There are quite a few. Apr 05 01:39
_Hicham_1 do they work on major distros? Apr 05 01:39
oiaohm Even the way openoffice Linux binaries are packaged are to LSB standard. Apr 05 01:40
oiaohm Yes they do _Hicham_1 Apr 05 01:40
oiaohm As long as LSB support packages are installed. Apr 05 01:40
oiaohm Distributions refused to install they by default. Apr 05 01:40
oiaohm You are away DaemonFC that LSB on any distribution has its own dynamic linker so there is no need to alter main packages to match LSB. Apr 05 01:41
oiaohm To pass LSB tests. Apr 05 01:41
oiaohm Basically it a load of crap that distributions have to break support with there native applications to support LSB. Apr 05 01:42
oiaohm Its a nice big myth so distributions don’t have to make it work. Apr 05 01:42
oiaohm There is no reason why if distributions worked with each other why they could not provide LSB support as a common shared runtime. Apr 05 01:42
_Hicham_1 so LSB packages will exist with native packages Apr 05 01:43
_Hicham_1 ? Apr 05 01:43
oiaohm They can. Apr 05 01:44
oiaohm Always has been able to. Apr 05 01:44
_Hicham_1 then I won’t develop LSB Applications Apr 05 01:44
_Hicham_1 I will stick to deb format Apr 05 01:44
oiaohm Its only true requirement has been that its support libraries be installed. Apr 05 01:44
oiaohm Binary installer makes that optional. Apr 05 01:45
_Hicham_1 I don’t like binary installers Apr 05 01:45
oiaohm It also goes after the out edge distributions who don’t want to standardise with any other distribution. Apr 05 01:45
_Hicham_1 I try to avoid them as much as possible Apr 05 01:45
_Hicham_1 rpm won’t even offer configure during install Apr 05 01:46
_Hicham_1 is there something like Debconf on rpm? Apr 05 01:46
oiaohm Binary installer is design if distrobution support it that binary installer can be run in a limited account. Apr 05 01:46
oiaohm And all installed files be approved. Apr 05 01:46
DaemonFC LSB has their head so far up Red Hat/Novells ass Apr 05 01:46
_Hicham_1 LSB choosed rpm Apr 05 01:47
DaemonFC mmhm Apr 05 01:47
oiaohm No rpm is one of those things. Apr 05 01:47
DaemonFC even though Dpkg is older and better Apr 05 01:47
oiaohm Everyone sat down at a table LSB officals ask everyone to vote on it. Apr 05 01:47
oiaohm by an agreed method. Apr 05 01:47
_Hicham_1 merge rpm with deb Apr 05 01:48
oiaohm Debian did not place object to vote before vote. Apr 05 01:48
_Hicham_1 yes to that Apr 05 01:48
_Hicham_1 provide all the features of both, yes Apr 05 01:48
oiaohm Only after so LSB tried to force it so there other votes could not be disreguard Apr 05 01:48
oiaohm Yes biggest LSB mistake in its history. Apr 05 01:48
oiaohm Never been forgoten. Apr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1 they have been bribed by RedHat/Novell Apr 05 01:49
oiaohm No Apr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1 that is why they choose rpm Apr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1 why not merge? Apr 05 01:49
_Hicham_1 they can work on that Apr 05 01:49
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_Hicham_1 bring Debian devs and RedHat devs to work on a solution together Apr 05 01:50
oiaohm You are aware that LSB specifuation RPM format basically does not work. Apr 05 01:50
oiaohm You built a package by that it will not install. Apr 05 01:50
_Hicham_1 the specification is not respected by RedHat? Apr 05 01:50
oiaohm Simple fact LSB has refused to keep on updating it if merge work does not happen. Apr 05 01:51
oiaohm LSB has resisted in placed. Apr 05 01:51
oiaohm Problem is they cannot just dump a vote without risking invalidating other votes. Apr 05 01:51
_Hicham_1 Binary Installers = Obscurity Apr 05 01:52
_Hicham_1 we well go again to Windows Apr 05 01:52
_Hicham_1 well/will Apr 05 01:53
_Hicham_1 Binary installers with spyware and so on Apr 05 01:53
_Hicham_1 and the system is fucked Apr 05 01:53
oiaohm You can install spyware with deb and rpm as well. Apr 05 01:55
oiaohm You should be aware that release of binary only installers line up with real-time virus scanning support being added to Linux kernel. Apr 05 01:55
oiaohm Yes hello windows. Apr 05 01:56
_Hicham_1 wow Apr 05 01:57
_Hicham_1 great Apr 05 01:57
_Hicham_1 we will end up with Windows problems Apr 05 01:57
_Hicham_1 and call for MS for some help :D Apr 05 01:58
oiaohm Not all Apr 05 01:59
oiaohm If distrobutions provide interface applications cannot install everywhere. Apr 05 01:59
oiaohm And cannot be installed in away that is not uninstallable. Apr 05 02:00
oiaohm Now distrobutions who don’t take part will have there distribution reduced to being as bad as windows. Apr 05 02:00
_Hicham_1 what about certified packages? Apr 05 02:00
DaemonFC yeah, LSB is nothing more than a system of threats for cash Apr 05 02:01
oiaohm LSB provides certified packages. Apr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1 the packages will be certified by LSB? Apr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1 even commercial certified packages? Apr 05 02:01
oiaohm Yes. Apr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1 that will be great Apr 05 02:01
_Hicham_1 finally we can have native pirated photoshop on Linux Apr 05 02:02
_Hicham_1 or native pirated macromedia flash Apr 05 02:02
oiaohm Its about getting rid of the reason why companies will not release packages on Linux. Apr 05 02:02
_Hicham_1 like we have native pirated nero Apr 05 02:02
_Hicham_1 there is already solutions for that Apr 05 02:03
_Hicham_1 binary installers like those of Real Player Apr 05 02:03
_Hicham_1 and Google Apr 05 02:03
oiaohm Look closer at googles. Apr 05 02:03
oiaohm Were do you think the design for this new system is coming from. Apr 05 02:03
oiaohm Ie plan b. Apr 05 02:03
_Hicham_1 but Debian resists Apr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1 there is a deb creator for googleearth Apr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1 and a deb creator for sun java Apr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1 and everything works well Apr 05 02:04
oiaohm They can and they are slowly kiling themselfs. Apr 05 02:04
_Hicham_1 so we don’t have to fuck our package management system Apr 05 02:05
_Hicham_1 why killing themselves? Apr 05 02:05
oiaohm All the extra maintaining time wasted on duplicating work. Apr 05 02:05
oiaohm That could go into more useful things. Apr 05 02:05
_Hicham_1 we can create a wrapper around binary installers to create deb packages Apr 05 02:05
oiaohm Reason why part of this solution is a clean interface to distribution. Apr 05 02:05
oiaohm To do equal to having a deb rpm or what ever else package. Apr 05 02:06
oiaohm for registration in package database. Apr 05 02:06
_Hicham_1 clean interface means abondon of native package management Apr 05 02:06
_Hicham_1 why not stick with the installers? Apr 05 02:06
_Hicham_1 who is having this problem, commercial entities, right? Apr 05 02:06
oiaohm And open source entities Apr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1 no Apr 05 02:07
oiaohm Anyone want to release packages for all distributions. Apr 05 02:07
oiaohm Is having hell. Apr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1 open source entities don’t have this problem Apr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1 because the distros do it Apr 05 02:07
oiaohm There are many that have the problem. Apr 05 02:07
_Hicham_1 example? Apr 05 02:07
oiaohm Take wine. Apr 05 02:07
oiaohm Ubuntu ships a wine package that is custom altered. Apr 05 02:08
oiaohm Same with many other distributions. Apr 05 02:08
_Hicham_1 it is their right Apr 05 02:08
oiaohm So errors happen.  So wine is forced to do there own package as well. Apr 05 02:08
oiaohm To work out if its the distribution alteration or a real fault. Apr 05 02:08
_Hicham_1 u mean upstream/downstream cooperation? Apr 05 02:08
oiaohm Its costing massive ammounts of time. Apr 05 02:08
oiaohm There is not any cooperation from distributions. Apr 05 02:08
oiaohm For lots of them. Apr 05 02:09
_Hicham_1 well, the major ones do Apr 05 02:09
oiaohm Ubuntu don’t. Apr 05 02:09
oiaohm Debian don’t Apr 05 02:09
oiaohm Both think they have the right to patch anything and not have to take repsonablity for it. Apr 05 02:09
oiaohm So yes Open source project are harmed. Apr 05 02:10
oiaohm They want a unifined installer of some form to get out of distribution hell. Apr 05 02:10
oiaohm And reduce there overheads. Apr 05 02:10
oiaohm Ubuntu will even complete disreguard instructions not to back port particular patches because they are broken. Apr 05 02:11
oiaohm You really need to get up close and personal with distrubitons to know how bad this is. Apr 05 02:12
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_Hicham_1 DaemonFC : are u still here? Apr 05 02:16
DaemonFC I really don’t care is LSB takes off because it’s a scam anyway Apr 05 02:17
DaemonFC so they can charge a fortune to certify something as Linux Apr 05 02:17
DaemonFC it’ll be effectively as bad as UNIX Apr 05 02:17
_Hicham_1 what do u say about upstream/downstream cooperation? Apr 05 02:17
_Hicham_1 DaemonFC : where is ur trolling talent? Apr 05 02:20
_Hicham_1 not even a troll now Apr 05 02:23
_Hicham_1 schestowitz is already asleep Apr 05 02:24
DaemonFC I wouldn’t cooperate with a group trying to blackmail me Apr 05 02:25
DaemonFC if I had a distro Apr 05 02:25
DaemonFC why should Ubuntu or Debian? Apr 05 02:25
_Hicham_1 I am talking about upstream/downstream cooperation Apr 05 02:27
DaemonFC no blackmail isn’t really the word Apr 05 02:27
DaemonFC so much as extortion Apr 05 02:27
_Hicham_1 it is not blackmail Apr 05 02:27
DaemonFC yeah it is Apr 05 02:27
DaemonFC they want huge licensing fees Apr 05 02:27
DaemonFC to get to say you’re LSB-compliant Apr 05 02:27
_Hicham_1 do u agree that upstream should cooperate with downstream? Apr 05 02:27
_Hicham_1 I am not talking about LSB now Apr 05 02:28
_Hicham_1 I agree with u, LSB is suspicious Apr 05 02:28
DaemonFC yeah, I agree they should work together instead of tugging on each other Apr 05 02:28
DaemonFC Ubuntu’s notify-osd daemon is an example of them not being friendly with upstream Apr 05 02:28
_Hicham_1 but the fact is that the distros make it harder Apr 05 02:28
_Hicham_1 exactly Apr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1 now u get me Apr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1 there is a real problem in there Apr 05 02:29
DaemonFC I chewed them out about it and they got defensive Apr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1 it is a huge work for upstream to set repos for each distro Apr 05 02:29
DaemonFC yet they admit that without Ubuntu-specific patches, GNOME won’t even build or work on Ubuntu now Apr 05 02:29
_Hicham_1 wow Apr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1 that is not good at all Apr 05 02:30
DaemonFC you can’t get upstream GNOME to build or run Apr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1 they are not playing good Apr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1 unlike fedora policy Apr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1 they try to stay close to upstream Apr 05 02:30
_Hicham_1 which I really like Apr 05 02:30
DaemonFC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam… Apr 05 02:31
DaemonFC “We currently do not have the infrastructure to provide a real “pure” GNOME environment, since some patches will even be required just to build and work at all under Ubuntu.” Apr 05 02:31
DaemonFC :) Apr 05 02:31
DaemonFC so to preempt anyone accusing me of trolling Apr 05 02:31
DaemonFC UBUNTU said it Apr 05 02:31
_Hicham_1 so they messed GNOME really bad Apr 05 02:32
_Hicham_1 because there is no Debian build for 2.26 Apr 05 02:32
DaemonFC GNOME isn’t messed up Apr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1 that is why they are stumbling upon Apr 05 02:33
DaemonFC Ubuntu is messed up Apr 05 02:33
DaemonFC and they have to patch GNOME against their specific GNOME patches Apr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1 that is what I meant Apr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1 they did a bad job Apr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1 not like debian one Apr 05 02:33
_Hicham_1 debian tries to stay close to Gnome Apr 05 02:34
DaemonFC now maybe they do good work and maybe they don’t, but GNOME should not be made totally incompatible with GNOME in any event ;) Apr 05 02:34
DaemonFC I happen to like notify-osd from a user perspective Apr 05 02:34
DaemonFC but if it creates incompatibility with upstream GNOME, it should not be used Apr 05 02:35
DaemonFC I have a suspicion that Ubuntu is trying to strongarm GNOME into taking notify-osd Apr 05 02:35
DaemonFC like it or not Apr 05 02:35
DaemonFC :) Apr 05 02:35
_Hicham_1 good suggestion Apr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1 but that means further cooperation with GNOME Apr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1 but Ubuntu don’t work closely with Upstream Apr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1 unlike Fedora Apr 05 02:37
_Hicham_1 Fedora ships the latest GNOME always Apr 05 02:38
DaemonFC Ubuntu doesn’t have to work closely with upstream Apr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1 why? Apr 05 02:38
DaemonFC they’re a second tier rebranding of Debian Apr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1 but people don’t have to report bugs to upstream Apr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1 just launchpad Apr 05 02:38
DaemonFC from their perspective, they only need to maintain patches on top of whatever Debian pumps out Apr 05 02:38
_Hicham_1 bad perspective Apr 05 02:39
DaemonFC that’s why Ubuntu contributes very few patches upstream Apr 05 02:39
_Hicham_1 Debian didn’t pump out GNOME 2.26 Apr 05 02:39
DaemonFC you won’t see that happen unless they just get frustrated at dealing with the same bug Apr 05 02:39
DaemonFC every time they pull Debian packages Apr 05 02:39
_Hicham_1 this time unfortunately, they have to be on their own Apr 05 02:40
DaemonFC yeah, cause nobody else uses notify-osd Apr 05 02:40
DaemonFC which should give them more incentive to ask GNOME to make it official Apr 05 02:40
DaemonFC so that they don’t have to fix it every time GNOME does something that breaks it Apr 05 02:40
DaemonFC unfortunately, I don’t think that they think like that Apr 05 02:41
_Hicham_1 notify-osd is not that big invention Apr 05 02:42
_Hicham_1 they should have done sthg useful Apr 05 02:42
DaemonFC the new notifications are definitely less of an annoyance Apr 05 02:42
DaemonFC and provide a good deal of usability improvement Apr 05 02:42
_Hicham_1 so u liked notify-osd? Apr 05 02:42
DaemonFC well, yes I do Apr 05 02:42
DaemonFC you don’t have to bother closing them, you can’t close them Apr 05 02:43
DaemonFC they go away on their own Apr 05 02:43
DaemonFC with no timer counting down Apr 05 02:43
DaemonFC and you can click through them Apr 05 02:43
DaemonFC they become transparent if you need to mouse over them Apr 05 02:43
_Hicham_1 it is not that big invention though Apr 05 02:43
_Hicham_1 it can be merged in GNOME Apr 05 02:43
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DaemonFC it’s much less of a shock to receive a notification from something now Apr 05 02:44
DaemonFC and you don’t have to feel like you need to do something with it Apr 05 02:44
DaemonFC on its own it’s not a huge thing Apr 05 02:44
_Hicham_1 at least Ubuntu contributes Apr 05 02:45
DaemonFC it’s one of those “if we make a dozen things more user-friendly, our system becomes easier to maintain as a whole” Apr 05 02:45
DaemonFC like greasing a squeaky wheel Apr 05 02:45
_Hicham_1 no it won’t Apr 05 02:46
_Hicham_1 if they don’t stick to upstream Apr 05 02:46
_Hicham_1 they need Debian anyway Apr 05 02:46
_Hicham_1 that is what I like in Fedora, their involvment with Upstream Apr 05 02:47
DaemonFC the way they explained it, the notify-osd system is invoked the same way as the old notifications system Apr 05 02:47
DaemonFC and their version has actually flushed out bugs in apps that don’t conform to the freedesktop.org specs Apr 05 02:48
DaemonFC and Ubuntu has patched them to comply Apr 05 02:48
DaemonFC that’s what they told me anyway Apr 05 02:48
DaemonFC I dunno, one way of looking at Ubuntu is that what’s good for Ubuntu is good for Linux Apr 05 02:49
DaemonFC and Shuttleworth has said he has no interest in backalley deals with MS or acknowledging any of their patent claims Apr 05 02:50
DaemonFC so I’m sort of comfortable with them, for now Apr 05 02:50
DaemonFC Right now Ubuntu and Fedora are leaders in the Linux world, nothing else is attracting that many users Apr 05 02:51
_Hicham_1 Ethically, Ubuntu isn’t very much FOSS Leader Apr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1 take for example launchpad Apr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1 malone, rosetta Apr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1 they are all closed source Apr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1 that means a lot Apr 05 02:52
_Hicham_1 the entity is trying to be profitable Apr 05 02:53
DaemonFC Bazaar is open source Apr 05 02:53
_Hicham_1 who created bazaar? Apr 05 02:53
DaemonFC Canonical Apr 05 02:53
DaemonFC and Upstartd is open sourced Apr 05 02:53
DaemonFC and is now used by Fedora too Apr 05 02:53
_Hicham_1 Fedora uses Bazaar? Apr 05 02:54
DaemonFC like I said, they’re greasing a lot of wheels that have been squeaking Apr 05 02:54
DaemonFC no Apr 05 02:54
DaemonFC Fedora uses Upstart Apr 05 02:54
DaemonFC which was made by Canonical Apr 05 02:54
DaemonFC Upstart is a replacement for init, it could also replace cron and anacron but nobody is using it for that, yet Apr 05 02:55
DaemonFC it is backwards compatible with SysVInit though Apr 05 02:55
_Hicham_1 Upstart is used by Ubuntu too? Apr 05 02:55
DaemonFC so you can run it with the exact same scripts if you like Apr 05 02:56
DaemonFC yep Apr 05 02:56
_Hicham_1 didn’t know that… Apr 05 02:56
DaemonFC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstart Apr 05 02:56
_Hicham_1 but why launchpad isn’t open-sourced? Apr 05 02:56
DaemonFC I don’t even see why it wouldn’t work with Solaris or FreeBSD Apr 05 02:56
DaemonFC unless there’s a license issue for some reason Apr 05 02:56
_Hicham_1 does it improve boot time? Apr 05 02:58
DaemonFC Canonical is releasing Launchpad under free software licenses Apr 05 02:58
DaemonFC Storm was the first component released as free software Apr 05 02:58
DaemonFC it can Apr 05 02:58
DaemonFC Upstart can be multi-threaded Apr 05 02:58
_Hicham_1 Upstart is licensed to Canonical? Apr 05 02:59
DaemonFC so you can have it use multiple CPU cores to do its work at boot time Apr 05 02:59
DaemonFC but faster boot wasn’t the main reason for it Apr 05 02:59
DaemonFC it’s smarter than SysVInit Apr 05 02:59
DaemonFC it can be triggered to do things by event Apr 05 03:00
DaemonFC rather than by script Apr 05 03:00
DaemonFC no, Upstart is GPL licensed Apr 05 03:00
DaemonFC version 2 or later I believe Apr 05 03:00
_Hicham_1 by the way, the guy who created Upstart, was an ex-debian dev Apr 05 03:01
DaemonFC yeah Apr 05 03:01
DaemonFC but he’s a Canonical employee now Apr 05 03:01
DaemonFC that’s where they head hunt Apr 05 03:01
DaemonFC I usually read the Official Ubuntu Book whenever they republish it Apr 05 03:01
DaemonFC it’s a decent walkthrough on all the new features Apr 05 03:02
_Hicham_1 by stealing debian devs? Apr 05 03:02
DaemonFC not really Apr 05 03:04
DaemonFC by employing them Apr 05 03:04
_Hicham_1 and blocking them from contributing to debian? Apr 05 03:04
DaemonFC no Apr 05 03:04
DaemonFC plenty of things that started in Ubuntu end up in Debian Apr 05 03:05
DaemonFC if they don’t it’s usually cause Debian’s policy turned it down Apr 05 03:05
DaemonFC a lot of the user-friendliness of Debian Lenny comes from things they cherry picked out of Ubuntu Apr 05 03:05
_Hicham_1 example? Apr 05 03:06
DaemonFC software updates, add/remove programs, just lots of little stuff Apr 05 03:06
DaemonFC I believe dash is /bin/sh Apr 05 03:06
DaemonFC Ubuntu started that a couple years ago Apr 05 03:06
DaemonFC they still use SysVInit though Apr 05 03:07
DaemonFC that’s their loss Apr 05 03:07
DaemonFC Upstart also makes for a more reliable system Apr 05 03:08
_Hicham_1 u mean the gnome-app-install package? Apr 05 03:08
DaemonFC because it can respawn daemons that die for whatever reason Apr 05 03:08
DaemonFC where SysVInit cannot Apr 05 03:08
_Hicham_1 well, they need time to prove it is stable Apr 05 03:09
DaemonFC Ubuntu has been using it since October 2006 Apr 05 03:09
DaemonFC Fedora has been using it since Fedora 9 Apr 05 03:09
_Hicham_1 Debian has its own policy Apr 05 03:10
DaemonFC which is why Ubuntu exists Apr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1 I know Apr 05 03:10
DaemonFC Debian releases are slow and unpredictable Apr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1 I don’t say that Ubuntu shouldn’t exist Apr 05 03:10
DaemonFC and their policies are ludicrous in some ways Apr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1 I agree Apr 05 03:10
_Hicham_1 but it is the price for freedom Apr 05 03:10
DaemonFC Debian isn’t free Apr 05 03:11
_Hicham_1 how? Apr 05 03:11
DaemonFC by free software standards it’s not Apr 05 03:11
DaemonFC that’s why the FSF does not recommend Debian Apr 05 03:11
DaemonFC it ships with non-free blobs Apr 05 03:11
_Hicham_1 in the non-free repo yes Apr 05 03:11
DaemonFC and has easy access to a store of non-free components Apr 05 03:11
DaemonFC no Apr 05 03:11
DaemonFC it has non-free stuff by default Apr 05 03:12
DaemonFC in the kernel Apr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1 the firmwares? Apr 05 03:12
DaemonFC yeah Apr 05 03:12
DaemonFC those make it non-free as a distribution Apr 05 03:12
DaemonFC according to the FSF Apr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1 well, I had to install a lot of firmwares by hand Apr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1 for the wireless card Apr 05 03:12
DaemonFC the FSF has a script that you can run on Linux kernel source Apr 05 03:12
DaemonFC to strip out the blobs Apr 05 03:12
_Hicham_1 for the sound card I had to compile them Apr 05 03:13
DaemonFC but good luck getting a lot of stuff to work after that Apr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1 that is the problem Apr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1 that is why they created gNewSense Apr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1 to make ur life more difficult Apr 05 03:13
DaemonFC and gNewSense doesn’t work right, and is crippled Apr 05 03:13
DaemonFC even where it has no reason to be Apr 05 03:13
_Hicham_1 basically, the Ubuntu approach is perfect Apr 05 03:14
DaemonFC gNewSense removed GLX even though GLX is free software Apr 05 03:14
DaemonFC because it wasn’t free “enough” Apr 05 03:14
_Hicham_1 wow Apr 05 03:14
DaemonFC and kept it out even after SGI revised the license Apr 05 03:14
DaemonFC to remove the parts they complained about Apr 05 03:14
DaemonFC so that crippled GPUs like Intel and some AMD/ATI Radeons Apr 05 03:15
_Hicham_1 gNewSense should be horrible Apr 05 03:15
DaemonFC which have free drivers that can use the 3d acceleration of GLX Apr 05 03:15
_Hicham_1 worse than Fedora in its early days Apr 05 03:15
DaemonFC Well, Fedora really only limits things based on if someone will sue them Apr 05 03:16
DaemonFC lol Apr 05 03:16
DaemonFC kind of like Ubuntu Apr 05 03:16
_Hicham_1 Fedora now is more cutting edge than Ubuntu Apr 05 03:16
DaemonFC so like my wifi card works in either one, but I have to go find an mp3 codec Apr 05 03:17
_Hicham_1 with their release of Fedora 11 Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFC B-) Apr 05 03:17
_Hicham_1 Fedora also have the gnome-codec-install package by default Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFC Fedora is just stupid sometimes Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFC it still can’t boot on Ext4 Apr 05 03:17
twitter Hi Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFC or XFS Apr 05 03:17
_Hicham_1 Fedora 11? Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFC Not cause GRUB can’t boot them Apr 05 03:17
DaemonFC because Fedora won’t allow you Apr 05 03:18
twitter here’s a LOL article from Computer World  http://blogs.computerworld.com/anot… Apr 05 03:18
DaemonFC yeah, Fedora 11 Apr 05 03:18
DaemonFC Ubuntu Jaunty can boot Ext4 or XFS Apr 05 03:18
twitter it ends, -> At the beginning, this guy said he wanted “Portability, Battery and Power”. He got a 16-inch laptop that isn’t considered very portable to say the least.  It has the same processor as an entry level MacBook.  The battery is substandard at best.  He got none of what he wanted Congratulations G.  You are a PC. Apr 05 03:18
DaemonFC without a separate /boot Apr 05 03:18
_Hicham_1 Maybe because they don’t trust Ext4 yet Apr 05 03:19
DaemonFC Telling the user to make a separate /boot even though GRUB supports /boot on Ext4 or XFS is just stupid Apr 05 03:19
twitter Why do you want a journaled file system for binaries? Apr 05 03:19
DaemonFC maybe I don’t like to make a lot of unnecessary partitions? Apr 05 03:20
DaemonFC Maybe I like booting a couple seconds quicker Apr 05 03:20
DaemonFC maybe I don’t want to guess at how much space to allocate Apr 05 03:20
twitter Ext2 works for my /usr and /var Apr 05 03:20
DaemonFC Maybe I want one type of fs Apr 05 03:20
DaemonFC and one type only Apr 05 03:21
DaemonFC If I make /boot on Ext3 I have to give my kernel Ext3 support Apr 05 03:21
twitter if you want speed, you don’t want a journal but I don’t think there’s that big of a difference. Apr 05 03:21
DaemonFC My kernel onl ysupports Ext4 Apr 05 03:21
DaemonFC cause it’s all I use Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFC the Ext4 driver can mount Ext3 volumes just fine Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFC as Ext4 Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFC and if you don’t enable Extents, it stays compatible with Ext3 Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFC B-) Apr 05 03:22
twitter If you can compile your own kernel, it should not be too difficult for you to make FC do what you want. Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFC not if the setup won’t let you Apr 05 03:22
DaemonFC and won’t let you override it Apr 05 03:23
DaemonFC I’ve have to dump the fresh install onto an external hard disk Apr 05 03:23
DaemonFC then mkfs.xfs Apr 05 03:23
DaemonFC then restore onto the new XFS volume Apr 05 03:23
DaemonFC that’s more workthan it’s worth Apr 05 03:23
twitter why don’t you modify the install? Apr 05 03:24
DaemonFC Anaconda is just a python app, I probably could force it to not be stupid if I wanted to bother running Fedora Apr 05 03:24
DaemonFC but there’s little point in that Apr 05 03:24
twitter then why complain? Apr 05 03:25
DaemonFC cause they’re file system nazis Apr 05 03:25
DaemonFC :P Apr 05 03:25
DaemonFC :) Apr 05 03:25
twitter Ok Apr 05 03:25
twitter What else is going on? Apr 05 03:25
twitter I have not had much time to look at news today. Apr 05 03:26
DaemonFC RPM Fusion’s Nvidia driver is also corrupt Apr 05 03:26
DaemonFC so you have to use Nvidia’s .run script Apr 05 03:26
DaemonFC which defeats the purpose of having a package manager Apr 05 03:26
twitter nvidia is corrupt but I’m told that’s changing :-D Apr 05 03:26
DaemonFC and at this point I may as well jsut maintain the kernel myself too Apr 05 03:26
DaemonFC and that means building RPMs, yuck Apr 05 03:27
DaemonFC and so on…. Apr 05 03:27
DaemonFC B-) Apr 05 03:27
DaemonFC Fedora does not reward you for poking around with it Apr 05 03:27
DaemonFC trying to make it work super well Apr 05 03:27
_Hicham_1 better buy Intel cards Apr 05 03:28
_Hicham_1 or ATI, as their drivers are getting open sourced Apr 05 03:28
DaemonFC Inhtel does not make cards Apr 05 03:29
DaemonFC they make integrated chipsets Apr 05 03:29
DaemonFC they perform badly Apr 05 03:29
DaemonFC and you can’t upgrade them with a better Intel chip Apr 05 03:29
DaemonFC without replacing the motherboard Apr 05 03:29
_Hicham_1 ATI will be open source soon Apr 05 03:30
DaemonFC not really Apr 05 03:31
DaemonFC they released some specs of their hardware Apr 05 03:31
DaemonFC and the community has built a better driver than the company that has access to ALL the specs cause they BUILT the hardware Apr 05 03:31
DaemonFC lol Apr 05 03:31
DaemonFC and did it all in under 2 years Apr 05 03:32
_Hicham_1 they can’t release the complete code Apr 05 03:32
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_Hicham_1 DaemonFC : still here? Apr 05 03:43
DaemonFC sure Apr 05 03:43
_Hicham_1 it is not that easy to open source the code Apr 05 03:44
_Hicham_1 the original code is not under a single license Apr 05 03:45
_Hicham_1 usually there is more than one license in the original code Apr 05 03:45
_Hicham_1 so open source ATI drivers is not that easy Apr 05 03:47
_Hicham_1 where do u leave DaemonFC? Apr 05 03:48
_Hicham_1 leave/live Apr 05 03:48
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*_Hicham_1 (n=hicham@ has left #boycottnovell Apr 05 04:05
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zer0c00l Gadgets that make u look like a jerk -> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/… Apr 05 05:51
zer0c00l poor microsoft attacks gnu/linux Apr 05 05:51
zer0c00l linux is not a gadget :P ..probably written by some 14 year old jerk Apr 05 05:52
*Omar87 has quit (Remote closed the connection) Apr 05 06:03
DaemonFC it says in the article that MSNBC is owned by Microsoft, lol Apr 05 06:04
DaemonFC as they are ridiculing their competition Apr 05 06:05
*zer0c00l (n=zer0c00l@ has left #boycottnovell (“Leaving”) Apr 05 06:33
schestowitz hey Apr 05 06:37
schestowitz I missed this funny about Fleury..  http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-s… Apr 05 07:08
schestowitz This article is wrongly suggesting that Google is “open-source”: http://news.alibaba.com/articl… No mention of OOo? 0_o Apr 05 07:30
*mib_r8tuo9 (i=44e625da@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a6d539022abdb1ad) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 05 07:31
*mib_r8tuo9 has quit (Client Quit) Apr 05 07:31
schestowitz Another company that thinks “open source” means exploiting a community.. http://mybroadband.co.z… Apr 05 07:32
schestowitz http://www.webwire.com/View… “Past OSCON sponsors and exhibitors included Intel, Microsoft, Sun…” Apr 05 07:48
schestowitz Germany invests €500 million in FOSS http://www.information-age.com/channels/… Apr 05 08:08
schestowitz “This surprising move means not only that the list of signatories is shrinking further–I have confirmation that Google has refused to sign, along with the already well-known Amazon and Microsoft declinations” This suggests that Microsoft just simply snubbed it again. just like it did with ODF… Apr 05 08:40
schestowitz Microsoft apologist: http://government.zdnet.com/?p=4553 Apr 05 08:57
schestowitz Critics slam Microsoft bridge as waste of stimulus money < http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/… > Apr 05 09:13
schestowitz http://technologizer.com/2009/03/29/i… “The Zune for all intents and purposes has been anything but a success for Microsoft. Redmond saw that Apple was wildly successful in controlling the experience from the top down, and decided to try to duplicate it.” Apr 05 09:24
*Eruaran (n=quassel@ has joined #boycottnovell Apr 05 09:32
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  1. Links 16/10/2021: Xubuntu 21.10 and DearPyGui 1.0.0

    Links for the day

  2. DuckDuckGo’s HQ is Smaller Than My Apartment

    Guest post by Ryan, reprinted with permission

  3. Post About Whether Vivaldi is a GPL violation Was Quietly Knifed by the Mods of /r/uBlockOrigin in Reddit

    Guest post by Ryan, reprinted with permission

  4. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XIII: Battistelli's Iberian Facilitators - Spain

    The EPO‘s António Campinos is an ‘Academy’ of overt nepotism; what Benoît Battistelli did mostly in France Campinos does in Spain and Portugal, severely harming the international image of these countries

  5. From Competitive (Top-Level, High-Calibre, Well-Paid) Jobs to 2,000 Euros a Month -- How the EPO is Becoming a Sweatshop by Patent Examiners' Standards

    A longish video about the dreadful situation at the EPO, where staff is being ‘robbed’ and EPO funds get funnelled into some dodgy stock market investments (a clear violation of the institution’s charter)

  6. [Meme] Protecting European Patent Courts From EPO 'Mafia'

    With flagrant disregard for court rulings (or workarounds to dodge actual compliance) it seems clear that today's EPO management is allergic to justice and to judges; European Patents perish at unprecedented levels in national European courts and it should be kept that way

  7. Links 15/10/2021: Pine64's New PinePhone Pro and Ubuntu 22.04 LTS Codename

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  8. [Meme] GitHub Isn't Free Hosting, It's All About Control by Microsoft

    Deleting GitHub isn’t a political statement but a pragmatic decision, seeing how Microsoft routinely misuses its control over GitHub to manipulate the market

  9. With EPO 'Strike Regulations' Belatedly Ruled Unlawful, EPO Management May be Lowering the Salary Even Further by Introducing Outside 'Temps' or Casual Workers

    Institutional capture by an 'IP' (litigation) Mafia is nearly complete; with illegal so-called (anti) 'Strike Regulations' out the door, they're quickly moving on to another plan, or so it seems on the surface

  10. Links 15/10/2021: 95% of Ransomware Targets Windows

    Links for the day

  11. IRC Proceedings: Thursday, October 14, 2021

    IRC logs for Thursday, October 14, 2021

  12. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XII: The French Connection

    The EPO‘s presidency (led by Frenchmen for nearly 15 years out of the past 18 years; Benoît Battistelli and António Campinos are both French despite their somewhat misleading surnames) is extremely unlikely to even be mildly scrutinised by the French delegates because of a web of nepotism and protectionism

  13. [Meme] Another Maladministration Meeting Comes to an End

    Did the EPO‘s overseeing body properly tackle Benoît Battistelli‘s illegal acts, authorised by that very same overseeing body? Don’t hold your breath as António Campinos continues to crack down on staff (maybe ILOAT will rule on it in 2030)

  14. Links 14/10/2021: LibreOffice 7.2.2, Happy Birthday to Jolla, Ubuntu 21.10, Devuan GNU+Linux 4.0, OpenBSD 7.0

    Links for the day

  15. [Teaser] What Miguel de Icaza Really Thinks of the CEO of Microsoft GitHub

    Following the opening of a new series about Microsoft GitHub we drop a little teaser today; we expect dozens of parts to be released in the coming weeks/months as facts are being validated and organised

  16. Splitting the Time to Cover More Leaks and Exposés

    We take stock of Part 11 of the ongoing EPO series (“EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion”) and explain what caused various delays yesterday; we may have to up our pace a little in order to keep up with an influx of leaks and whistleblowers

  17. [Meme] Destroying the Workplace

    The working conditions at the EPO continue to worsen under the António Campinos regime, perpetuating the decade-long 'demolition project' of Benoît Battistelli and his cohorts in the complicit Administrative CouncilThe working conditions at the EPO continue to worsen under the António Campinos regime, perpetuating the decade-long 'demolition project' of Benoît Battistelli and his cohorts in the complicit Administrative Council

  18. Microsoft GitHub Exposé — Part I — Inside a Den of Corruption and Misogynists

    Today we commence a new series that implicates Microsoft, GitHub, Copilot, and Team Mono

  19. EPO Management Tricks EPO Staff Into Taking More Paycuts

    “Education and childcare reform” [sic] is an António Campinos "reform" in the same sense regressive salary reductions are just “adjustments” (euphemism); Electronic opt-in gaffes, according to staff representatives, show that the tradition of Benoît Battistelli carries on at the Office, taking away from staff for a few corrupt officials to milk the institution to death

  20. Links 14/10/2021: Whisker Menu 2.6.1 and KDE's Birthday

    Links for the day

  21. Links 14/10/2021: DragonFly 6.0.1 Released and Red Hat Loses Another Top Executive

    Links for the day

  22. IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, October 13, 2021

    IRC logs for Wednesday, October 13, 2021

  23. Süddeutsche Zeitung Became a Propaganda Arm of EPO Management (and by Extension Software Patents/Patent Lobbyists)

    EPO ‘genius’ António Campinos enjoys shallow press coverage, which echoes or resembles Benoît Battistelli‘s corruption of the media (paid-for fluff)

  24. GNOME (and Debian) Infringe Human Rights by Shipping Parental Control Software (Internally Called “Malcontent”)

    Guest post by Ryan, reprinted with permission

  25. No, JWZ, Discord is Not “IRC With Pictures”

    Guest post by Ryan, reprinted with permission

  26. The EPO’s Overseer/Overseen Collusion — Part XI: “General Bock” - Battistelli's Swiss Apprentice?

    The António Campinos-led EPO won’t be subjected to real oversight by the Administrative Council, which ‘met’ (online) earlier today; so we look at who in the Administrative Council did what; today we wrap up the parts about Switzerland (third part of three)

  27. Links 13/10/2021: Sparky 2021.10 and New Archcraft

    Links for the day

  28. Links 13/10/2021: Firefox Keylogger on (By Default), GNOME Platform Design Discussed

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  29. [Meme] [Teaser] Swiss Alexandre Benallas

    The EPO‘s French dictator, Benoît ‘Vichy’ Battistelli, might be relieved to hear that his enabler in the adjacent Switzerland also enlisted armed bullies to keep the population down (the father of António Campinos might know a thing or two about those; it’s why he fled to France)

  30. IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, October 12, 2021

    IRC logs for Tuesday, October 12, 2021

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