06.11.09
Manners
IT has come to our attention that impolite messages have been sent out which do not represent the views of this Web site but make it look as though they do. In a similar vein, a group of disruptors entered the IRC channel in recent days and uttered things that are intended to paint this site in a negative light. It was group work from the same people who had attacked us from other Web sites.
It is important to stress that such statements are by no means representative of this site’s message. It is hard to regulate such things because we don’t censor. Any advice would be appreciated. █
Content is available under CC-BY-SA
Dan O'Brian said,
June 11, 2009 at 8:19 pm
The obvious answer is to stop spreading lies.
It’s obvious that your message has been taken to extremes by some rabid people and your lies feed their hatred and innocent people have gotten hurt over it.
The Mad Hatter Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
Dan,
What lies? Please enumerate them, along with the names of the articles they appeared in and the dates, along with the reason you think they are lies.
Give us some detail.
Roy Schestowitz said,
June 11, 2009 at 8:27 pm
Dan O’Brian,
Are you appointed by your neighbors at Waltham to be part of our problem?
Dan O'Brian Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
For someone who likes to point out how people are always trying to “shoot the messenger”, you sure like to do it a lot yourself.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
We’ve had enough people insulting us here from Novell.com IP addresses and we learned that they do the same in other Web sites (smearing us). Since you live nearby (next to Novell) and refuse to make disclosure, we are left assuming stuff.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 1:27 am
“When you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you and umption.”–Samuel L. Jackson as “Mitch Hennessey” in /The Long Kiss Goodnight/
Sabayon User (Sabayon == Gentoo, kthx) Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Please point us to these “insults”.
Dan O'Brian said,
June 11, 2009 at 8:46 pm
You started a smear campaign against Ubuntu over Mono that you’ve been waging over the past week or so, making false accusations about how they are censoring Mono opposition. You claimed that Mono developers are “infiltrating” Ubuntu and are taking over positions of power in order to force their view on users. These statements are lies.
Don’t pretend it didn’t happen, there is plenty of evidence on this very site to prove what I’m saying.
The Mad Hatter Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
And they aren’t? Can you prove this, because I was one of those who was “censored” when I brought up the Mono issue for discussion.
Roy Schestowitz said,
June 11, 2009 at 8:49 pm
Nobody started a smear against Ubuntu. Go back to Novell, “Dan O’Brian”.
Dan O'Brian said,
June 11, 2009 at 8:54 pm
You don’t call making accusations about how Ubuntu is censoring Mono opposition a smear? What would you call it, Roy?
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
No, because it’s true. And the problem is Mono (Novell), not Ubuntu.
Dan O'Brian Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
Where is your proof that Novell is behind the moderators issuing a warning to your friend who was trolling the Ubuntu forums?
The Mad Hatter Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
Dan,
You don’t understand the situation. I posted a suggestion on the Brainstorm web site, that Ubuntu should include an easy way to remove Mono, for those who don’t want to use it, like myself. While I’m technically capable of removing it, I know a lot of people who aren’t, but don’t like Mono, and don’t think it should be included. I’ve been asked how to remove it many times.
I’ve also posted a suggestion that Evolution should be removed from the Gnome desktop. An email client is not part of the desktop. Currently Evolution is very difficult to remove. If you aren’t careful you can destabilise Ubuntu. Not many people like an OS that reboots at random moments…
Quite frankly the integration of Evolution into Gnome reminds me of the integration of Internet Exploder into Windows, one of Microsoft more spectacularly stupid moves.
twitter Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Roy has offered reputable reports of censorship and moderation gaming on Ubuntu forums in favor of Novell and Mono. Are you saying these reports are not true? That assertion would be easy to prove. Just show us Ubuntu form pages where mono patent threats are talked about fairly. I don’t think you will find such a thing. Is there anyone else in the world besides M$, Novell and Mono developers who have the means, desire or history of such behavior? I don’t think so. This kind of thing is typical M$ behavior, proven time and time again in M$ email that ends up in anti-trust court.
Dan O’Brian, you deserve your bad reputation for having persistently and rudely harassed this site and it’s readers. The more of that you and your friends do, the worse things get for you. It always amazes me how M$ allies think they can break everything and insult everyone and not have the world hate them. Go cry about “Microsoft Haters” and “Zealots” some place else. You’ve proved yourself here long enough.
eet Reply:
June 11th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
twitter, you and your pals are trolls, nothing more. When you go to the Ubuntu forums to spam every thread with your ideological nonsense, that’s why you are not greeted with enthusiasm. Ubuntu forums is not a place for conspiracy theorists.
twitter Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 1:12 am
I’ve never posted in a Ubuntu forum, eet. Spamming multiple websites in some sort of Slog is what you and your M$ sponsored pals do. Your intention there is your the same as everywhere, to disrupt free software communications and community.
Your efforts are unsustainable and backfire badly. The harder you work to discredit free software advocates, the worse things are for your paymasters. Astroturf stinks, people notice. Despite your noise and insults, all of the major distributions have noticed the Mono patent trap. Don’t try to blame your failures on Roy, just realize that what you do is foolish and wasteful. The more you try to discredit me, the better my reputation grows.
Sabayon User (Sabayon == Gentoo, kthx) Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
Ha, ha
twitter Reply:
June 13th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Ah yes, Gentoo troll, everyone is aware of your persistent attacks on Slashdot. I’m not sure what you think you are proving by pointing to yet more of your libel. The pattern is clear, people who do or say things M$ does not like are viciously and personally attacked. Roy continues to catalog this kind of behavior from you people, thanks for adding more evidence to this thread.
eet said,
June 11, 2009 at 11:29 pm
Roy is so predictable. At every opportunity he whines how unfairly he is treated (in my comments for example), then he himself accuses every critic of bein a paid minion of his sworn enemies… Apologize to Dan, Roy! Stop your dirty ad-hominem attacks against anyone who disagrees with you!
G. Michaels said,
June 11, 2009 at 11:50 pm
I’m going to help you Roy, because while I think you’re the worst thing to ever crawl up from the bowels of the dark pit that is FOSS extremism, it’s not fair that you should be taking the rap for this. I don’t believe you are involved directly. I’ve also been doing a bit of digging and I think I’ve identified the culprit.
So, ready? Here we go.
“Mark Fink” equals “AstralKnight” equals “CyberPhoenix” equals “Diamond Wakizashi”
I read your back and forth with that Ubuntu guy and I don’t think it’s fair that you should have to apologize for what another idiot is doing. I don’t know how this helps you, but at least now you know who he is. I have no idea if Fink is his real name, or just another nym.
It’s the same problem your friend “twitter” had on Slashdot. People simply cannot escape their established patterns. So their nyms and sockpuppets are almost always identified. Without the need for “M$” to monitor individual residential broadband connections or whatever. All one has to do is read a few posts, tie a few knots and bam!
And now speaking of twitter, I’m going to help you a bit more because I’m in a good mood.
You might not be behind these people. You might not be sponsoring or encouraging their actions. But you’re giving them the ammunition (albeit mostly blanks) to shit all over the internet. You are an extremist, so extremists like these naturally gravitate towards you. They’re crude and insulting. You hide behind walls of irrelevant quotes, bad analysis and pedant phrases. But ultimately you are all part of the same amorphous mass of obnoxious extremists uttering the same things over and over again, as if doing that would suddenly turn gut feelings and half-cocked theories into hard facts. Not unlike your hatred Microsoft evangelists.
Think about that the next time you feel compelled to write another one of your “teh mono infection in [distro]” posts – especially if you have no real facts to back up your claims and you find yourself having to use question marks for the headlines and quotes from the people on your IRC channel, who more often than not (with a few exceptions) are as wrong as you are anyway.
neighborlee said,
June 12, 2009 at 12:22 am
@g.michaels etal,
drama drama..forgive us if we dont go whimpering away, pleading for your holy mercy…how pitifullly vulgar and hypocritical can you get, while spitting your nasty , colorful adjectives.
You are all digging your own holes , and its going to get really lonely down there, and you can take all your vile comments with you , down there, where they belong.
I shouldn’t really give you such help but being you did so much there for Roy,,, if you just eased up a bit on all this vitriol, you might manage to join humanity, this debate ( respect, you ?? ) and possibly emerge victorious from the file13 mindset of visitors who otherwise cast your viewpoints to that dark pit, as they skim over your hate speech ( entire post).
cheers
nl
David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,
June 12, 2009 at 1:21 am
Among the various lies and slanders which Mark Fink (who, despite Roy’s statements to the contrary, seems to be a quite regular “contributor” here) regaled the list with were included grossly erroneous statements about Miguel’s employment history, his motives for starting the GNOME project, as well as a number of personal insults; in addition he impugned the integrity of the Ubuntu-devel moderators by “informing” the list that they were all Novell employees. Just for starts.
With friends like Mark, you surely don’t need enemies, Roy. As long as you give the passive-aggressive nod to that sort of behavior–and I note that Mark is not identified in this posting–don’t expect to be taken seriously except by others who already share your point of view. You’re studiously polite, indeed, but I sense you’re playing both sides of the fence. A specific disavowal and disclaimer of Mark’s actions would have been a lot better…
twitter Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 1:54 am
Very funny, “[Roy] don’t expect to be taken seriously except by others who already share your point of view.” If you trolls were not afraid of this site being taken seriously, you would not be here trying to discredit it. Give up, already, it’s not working. Roy does good research, better than most of the tech-no press.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 2:33 am
The trolls are all over this post. It must be on the right topic.
eet Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 2:36 am
…speaks the troll.
Roy, you must be feeling flattered! You and doing research? You must be kidding. Every time one asks you to prove your outrageous accusations by facts, you wriggle out of it by pointing to your own articles, which again are absolutely factless and self-referencing.
And when cornered, you always say “this is only a blog, I don’t have to adhere to journalistic standards, I only voice my opinion”.
That’s about the extent of Roy’s research.
And that’s also why I – and many others – can’t resist commenting on the unbelievable shit you and your trolls write. It insults any thinking human being’s intelligence and sense of integrity.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 3:40 am
Sigh. Before, I was a “victim”, now I’m a “troll”. I’m not the one who started this, Roy, that would be your non-associate Mr. Fink. Again, I’d have been better persuaded of your good intentions by a more specific denunciation than “some folks have been behaving badly someplace out there. If you in fact feel that Mr. Fink’s shenanigans are reflecting badly on you–and this certainly isn’t the first or only instance of precisely this sort of behavior on his part–why not say, clearly and straightforwardly, “Mark Fink in no way, shape or form has anything to do with this site, and I condemn his actions in every way”?
Just wonderin’. If I were as prone to unfounded assumptions as you’ve been in your comments here, I might well accuse you of outright complicity in this. Me, I’m a bit more charitable than that.
Just a bit, mind you.
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 3:42 am
Not you, David. We have some regular trolls here and they hijack this thread.
Dan O'Brian Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 5:57 am
The way I see it, ‘twitter’ attacked David calling him a troll. Then you replied to ‘twitter’ saying the site is full of trolls.
Sure seems like you were calling David a troll to me.
David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 3:47 am
Um, where did I try to “discredit this site”? Please be specific. I’ve limited myself to discrediting the noisome Mr. Fink, who surely deserves every single bit of it. If anything around this discredits this site, I’d suggest it’s Roy’s “no you see it, now you don’t” contrition….
Roy Schestowitz Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 3:49 am
No, what I meant to say is that the trolls don’t include you; Instead, they are the pro-Novell folks who have been trolling this site for years.
twitter Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 11:06 pm
I’m sorry that I could not tell the difference between trolls and victims here, but not quite as sorry as Roy must be. Let’s review why, Mr. Lefty. When you say:
It sure looks like you are trying to blame Roy and BN for what other people do. By the same logic, you should be apologizing for the bad behavior of trolls like eet, G. Micahels and Dan 0′Brain. Surely, you encourage their lies and slander? I’m not so “charitable” as you and take this accusation as a confession:
Many troll threads end with, “You have been trolled.” The Linux.com attack pretty much seals the case on this one.
eet said,
June 12, 2009 at 4:25 am
Your are very probably referring to me. Roy, if anything I am anti-Schestowitz and pro-GNU-software, and not so much pro-Novell. Novell is only good insofar it promotes openSUSE and Mono.
I myself am not very happy about the Novell-MS agreement, but reading all the unfair crap in your blog made me defend it where you are being especially unfair. Also I cannot let it stand that you condemn a great GNU-framework (Mono) and people who GNU software owes a lot to (Icaza) because of this whole thing.
You cannot simply equate anti-Schestowitz with pro-Novell, and you cannot equate being ‘not-against-Novell’ with trolling.
Trolling, my special friend, is spreading hate (as you do), and even more so, doing it by warping facts or making things up and trying to discredit critics.
Needs Sunlight said,
June 12, 2009 at 5:36 am
Roy’s been doing top quality work consistently and the information he’s managed to bring into the daylight is of exceptional value. However, for some the truth hurts. I wish I could say it was unusual for technical and legal discussions to be countered by mud slinging, but unfortunately it is not. Personal attacks are the bread and butter of political movements like MSFT, because without the personal attacks and deception we’d have only the technical merits to go by. That would mean not only would MSFT and MSFT boosters lose out, there would also be a great backlash for the damage done to-date by their shoddy immitations of technology.
Dan O'Brian Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 5:59 am
“Top quality”? I think you need to get out into the sun a bit more.
eet Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 6:06 am
@Needs sunlight: Just because you _like_ what somebody says, this doesn’t mean the information given has ‘top quality’…
Roy is ready to follow and reprint any ill-founded, vague rumour if it only goes ‘in the right direction’, also he often simply makes his news himself by speculating wildly instead of reporting facts. (These posts are easily distinguishable most of the time because the end in a ‘?’ so as to prevent him from getting sued for libel.)
powered_by_tux said,
June 12, 2009 at 7:35 am
So someone spread false statements in your name? That means you do everything right, Roy. Keep up your valuable work, please.
Sometimes I wish that MS would openly attack or attempt to kill Linux, not because I do not like it but it would show a lot of people that it is wrong to trust MS in Linux matters. This is actually worth it considering that those people are resisting to learn that MS is not a charity that is giving interoperability to us without demanding something (= royalties) in return.
eet Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 10:19 am
M$ _does_ attack its enemies openly. Only that it is not us, because we ARE NOT IMPORTANT enough.
Microsoft’s real contender is Apple, not Linux. As can be seen by Microsoft attacking Apple openly at every opportunity. As can be seen from their recent advert series ‘Laptop Hunters’, their claims that Macs are too expensive (which they are, by the way).
Apple makes for roughly 10% of PCs in the US, now, and that is a _real_ threat to MS, unlike us Linuxers.
Jose_X Reply:
June 12th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
eet, if you only knew how that speech inspires people like me.
..hmm
.. not much actually ..
– but thanks for trying!
I think Ballmer gets his Linux news from Linux Today. Guy just loves advertising there. Can’t imagine why, but one shouldn’t be disrespectful before royalty.. so we just try to put on a good show.. Like in this thread about mono: http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2009061201035OSCYDV
eet said,
June 13, 2009 at 3:52 am
You’re welcome. I would be interested to learn what it doesn’t inspire you to do – buy a Mac?
He.
The Mad Hatter said,
June 14, 2009 at 1:02 am
This has been a most fascinating thread. Gave me some great ideas for future articles.
Dan O’Brian eas especially helpful. Thanks Dan. I know that this wasn’t what you intended, but it’s what your going to get. You’ve pointed me in the right direction, and man, this is going to be a fun one to write. Hell, I’ve got close to 500 words already!