04.02.09
IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 1st, 2009 – Part 2
To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| oiaohm | Its one of the normal evils. | Apr 01 03:35 |
|---|---|---|
| oiaohm | Very few companies are smart enough to avoid it. | Apr 01 03:36 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_1: problem with userspace drivers they are not fast performance. char based drivers have been supported since 2.6.28 block devices are harder. | Apr 01 03:36 |
| yuhong | But I talked with you before about exactly this. | Apr 01 03:37 |
| oiaohm | fuse is filesystem cuse is charbase. | Apr 01 03:37 |
| yuhong | Are you saying MS’s business tactics is caused by greed? | Apr 01 03:37 |
| _Hicham_1 | so kernel modules are always best? | Apr 01 03:37 |
| oiaohm | Any company that gets in a dominating location force of greed temps them to destroy to get more yuhong. Its not unique to MS. | Apr 01 03:38 |
| oiaohm | IBM suffered from it before MS. | Apr 01 03:38 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_1: for speed yes. | Apr 01 03:38 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_1: for system secuirty anything you cannot audit in kernel space is a secuirty risk. | Apr 01 03:39 |
| *yuhong has quit (“ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]“) | Apr 01 03:39 | |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_1: So binary kernel drivers are kinda a non non from secuirty. | Apr 01 03:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | userspace drivers will help to have closed source drivers easily installed | Apr 01 03:40 |
| _Hicham_1 | and why not | Apr 01 03:40 |
| _Hicham_1 | have a complete infrastracture for it | Apr 01 03:40 |
| oiaohm | Most because developers have not put in the time. | Apr 01 03:42 |
| oiaohm | Remember there are only 3 types of drivers in Linux. | Apr 01 03:42 |
| oiaohm | filesystem char and block. | Apr 01 03:43 |
| oiaohm | That is it. | Apr 01 03:43 |
| oiaohm | emulation of block interfaces have not been provided to userspace. | Apr 01 03:43 |
| _Hicham_1 | I read about sthg similar in Ubuntu | Apr 01 03:44 |
| _Hicham_1 | there is a dev working on that | Apr 01 03:44 |
| oiaohm | For all the drivers that could be released using cuse there is almost no drivers. | Apr 01 03:44 |
| oiaohm | Lack of interest so why should Linux developers go through the effort | Apr 01 03:45 |
| _Hicham_1 | the hardware manufacturers are not likely to opensource their drivers | Apr 01 03:46 |
| _Hicham_1 | but these for most of them can’t be used in userspace | Apr 01 03:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | because of speed issue | Apr 01 03:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | eg Nvidia and ATI drivers | Apr 01 03:48 |
| _Hicham_1 | those ones will never be opensourced | Apr 01 03:48 |
| oiaohm | ATI drivers are going open source. | Apr 01 03:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : I don’t think so | Apr 01 03:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | AMD can’t do that | Apr 01 03:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | they will lose market | Apr 01 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Have you not notice that ATI is dropping support out there binary drivers as soon as the open source ones beat them. | Apr 01 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Also give open source access to specs before cards are even released | Apr 01 03:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | ATI has dropped support for my card on their newer drivers | Apr 01 03:50 |
| _Hicham_1 | I am using an opensource one | Apr 01 03:50 |
| _Hicham_1 | the radeon driver | Apr 01 03:50 |
| oiaohm | Becuse in most tests the opensource will beat the old. | Apr 01 03:50 |
| _Hicham_1 | true | Apr 01 03:50 |
| _Hicham_1 | they also recommend the opensource one | Apr 01 03:51 |
| oiaohm | AMD goal for Linux is in time there will be no need for closed soruce drivers for ATI cards for Linux. | Apr 01 03:51 |
| oiaohm | Then they will look at the Linux tech and work out if windows should get the same treatment. | Apr 01 03:51 |
| oiaohm | Same with Mac | Apr 01 03:51 |
| _Hicham_1 | do u think that Nvidia will do the same? | Apr 01 03:51 |
| oiaohm | For AMD its a new code base free of all the deals they have to pay for. | Apr 01 03:52 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia is one of the companies AMD has to pay for tech in the ATI drivers. | Apr 01 03:52 |
| oiaohm | Same with Nvidia paying ATI for tech in the drivers. | Apr 01 03:52 |
| _Hicham_1 | so ATI is moving away from Nvidia? | Apr 01 03:53 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia most likely not. They back stabed the first open source video card driver project. | Apr 01 03:53 |
| oiaohm | The tech that makes Nvidia fast on Linux was born in a joint project between video card markers to make open source drivers. | Apr 01 03:54 |
| _Hicham_1 | so Nvidia is not good to Linux? | Apr 01 03:54 |
| oiaohm | The deals that bind the Video card marks teoghter are also form that project. | Apr 01 03:54 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia has been bad for Linux in a lot of ways. | Apr 01 03:55 |
| _Hicham_1 | do u think that ATI is trying to cutoff wages? | Apr 01 03:55 |
| oiaohm | Removed the need for the X11 stack to be repaired. | Apr 01 03:55 |
| oiaohm | So the stack remained crappy for years. | Apr 01 03:55 |
| _Hicham_1 | what about the Nouveau driver? | Apr 01 03:55 |
| oiaohm | Some of the hooks Nvidia uses block crappy code from being removed. | Apr 01 03:56 |
| zer0c00l | schestowitz, always goes to sleep very early in the morning (4.00 am) | Apr 01 03:56 |
| oiaohm | Basically Nvidia is partly resposnable for the sorry state of affairs X11 is. | Apr 01 03:56 |
| _Hicham_1 | but Intel have opensource Linux drivers long time ago | Apr 01 03:56 |
| oiaohm | Reason why when someone tries to hold Nvidia up as good they get ripped to shreds. | Apr 01 03:57 |
| oiaohm | Intel open sourced at first out of simple cheep solution. | Apr 01 03:57 |
| oiaohm | Only recently have they worked out the importance of making the stack work. | Apr 01 03:57 |
| oiaohm | Developers are still required open source or not. | Apr 01 03:57 |
| _Hicham_1 | but with OpenSource we are having a community | Apr 01 03:59 |
| _Hicham_1 | which we can’t have with closed source | Apr 01 03:59 |
| oiaohm | Exactly | Apr 01 03:59 |
| oiaohm | Allows Intel to work closer with end users of there chipsets. | Apr 01 03:59 |
| oiaohm | Same with AMD. | Apr 01 03:59 |
| oiaohm | Closed source puts a wall between you and users of you hardware for hardware makers. | Apr 01 04:00 |
| oiaohm | Making it hard to work out exactly what they want. | Apr 01 04:00 |
| oiaohm | For hardware makers closed source is really more often than not a downside. | Apr 01 04:01 |
| _Hicham_1 | closed source is a nasty idea | Apr 01 04:01 |
| _Hicham_1 | basically, no code should be hidden | Apr 01 04:01 |
| oiaohm | Depends on kinda of company. | Apr 01 04:02 |
| oiaohm | If you are depend on selling applications. | Apr 01 04:02 |
| oiaohm | closed source is good. | Apr 01 04:02 |
| _Hicham_1 | if every binary has to be delivered with the source, there wouldn’t be all of that security pb | Apr 01 04:03 |
| oiaohm | If you depend on selling support closed source not as good. | Apr 01 04:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : we can sell open source software | Apr 01 04:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | not GPL or BSD | Apr 01 04:03 |
| oiaohm | You don’t really sell open source software. | Apr 01 04:03 |
| oiaohm | You sell support. | Apr 01 04:03 |
| oiaohm | two different models | Apr 01 04:04 |
| _Hicham_1 | if it is GPLed | Apr 01 04:04 |
| oiaohm | Even if its GPLd | Apr 01 04:04 |
| _Hicham_1 | we can sell code licensed under some restrictive license | Apr 01 04:04 |
| oiaohm | Open source focus is on support. Closed source focus is on the applications. | Apr 01 04:04 |
| _Hicham_1 | like MS Shared Code License | Apr 01 04:04 |
| oiaohm | Problem with selling code under restrictive licence how the code works can simply worked out and program cloned. | Apr 01 04:05 |
| oiaohm | Closed source is cloning resistance. | Apr 01 04:05 |
| _Hicham_1 | not if closed source is banned | Apr 01 04:05 |
| _Hicham_1 | if closed source is banned, no one can copy | Apr 01 04:05 |
| _Hicham_1 | and there will be complete transparency | Apr 01 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Even some open source support project use closed source. | Apr 01 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Ie they provide module closed source until people pay enough money. | Apr 01 04:06 |
| oiaohm | then they release the source code. | Apr 01 04:06 |
| _Hicham_1 | like Ubuntu? | Apr 01 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Fast solutions support closed source. | Apr 01 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Ie person needs X fixed but will not pay on going support contract. | Apr 01 04:07 |
| oiaohm | Or enough money to cover cost of development. | Apr 01 04:07 |
| _Hicham_1 | u r talking about RedHat then | Apr 01 04:07 |
| oiaohm | RedHat does it. | Apr 01 04:07 |
| _Hicham_1 | it is a good way | Apr 01 04:07 |
| _Hicham_1 | I like how RedHat do things | Apr 01 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Closed source has its place in the model. | Apr 01 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Its like all things you can have too much of a good thing. | Apr 01 04:08 |
| _Hicham_1 | RedHat is the only company that works for the best of open source | Apr 01 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Blance is key. World got way out of blance with closed and open source. | Apr 01 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Another company that does it the right way is ID. | Apr 01 04:09 |
| _Hicham_1 | ID? | Apr 01 04:09 |
| oiaohm | The company that make quake and the like. | Apr 01 04:09 |
| oiaohm | They make game engines. | Apr 01 04:09 |
| oiaohm | At first the engines are closed source. Once they end of live they go GPL. | Apr 01 04:09 |
| oiaohm | They are nicely halfway between closed source and open. | Apr 01 04:10 |
| _Hicham_1 | that is a good way | Apr 01 04:10 |
| _Hicham_1 | I prefer than closed source get banned | Apr 01 04:10 |
| _Hicham_1 | and sell code | Apr 01 04:10 |
| _Hicham_1 | instead of binaries | Apr 01 04:11 |
| oiaohm | I would prefer a law that when you end of life a program you must release the source code. | Apr 01 04:11 |
| *zer0c00l has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Apr 01 04:11 | |
| oiaohm | And the source code must be held in trust for that day. | Apr 01 04:11 |
| _Hicham_1 | why not force everyone to release the source code? | Apr 01 04:11 |
| oiaohm | Its a problem of paying developers. | Apr 01 04:12 |
| _Hicham_1 | I mean no commercial app without source code | Apr 01 04:12 |
| _Hicham_1 | we will sell the software | Apr 01 04:12 |
| _Hicham_1 | the user will have the code | Apr 01 04:12 |
| oiaohm | If source code is held back. | Apr 01 04:12 |
| _Hicham_1 | but under a restrictive license | Apr 01 04:12 |
| oiaohm | someone might decide to pay the complete program out sooner to get it. | Apr 01 04:12 |
| oiaohm | So the developers end up paid for there time. | Apr 01 04:13 |
| oiaohm | Its how ID system works. | Apr 01 04:13 |
| oiaohm | There have been cases of there engine released in months of public release because some big game company decide to pay out costs and give ID some profit. | Apr 01 04:13 |
| _Hicham_1 | that is just because closed source can’t be banned | Apr 01 04:14 |
| oiaohm | Remember if windows 2000 had to be released on end of life that would be next year. | Apr 01 04:14 |
| oiaohm | So MS would have to have current OS run better than 2000 with other coders adding updates. | Apr 01 04:15 |
| oiaohm | Forces self competition. | Apr 01 04:15 |
| oiaohm | Great for the market. | Apr 01 04:15 |
| oiaohm | Now if they are forced just to release everything. | Apr 01 04:15 |
| oiaohm | There is no trigger for self competition. | Apr 01 04:15 |
| _Hicham_1 | there is no way to release everything | Apr 01 04:16 |
| oiaohm | Basically closed source and open source have there place like ying and yang. | Apr 01 04:16 |
| oiaohm | Out of balance there is a problem. | Apr 01 04:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | closed source can be reversed | Apr 01 04:16 |
| _Hicham_1 | why closed source? | Apr 01 04:17 |
| *dsmith_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Apr 01 04:17 | |
| _Hicham_1 | security by obscurity? | Apr 01 04:17 |
| _Hicham_1 | it has failed as a viable model | Apr 01 04:17 |
| oiaohm | viable model is the ID one. | Apr 01 04:17 |
| oiaohm | ID develops something new. They give a program so people can sample it. | Apr 01 04:18 |
| oiaohm | Then people buy it. | Apr 01 04:18 |
| oiaohm | In the end it end up free. | Apr 01 04:18 |
| _Hicham_1 | I prefer to buy code | Apr 01 04:18 |
| oiaohm | closed source are like small shop samples of food. | Apr 01 04:19 |
| oiaohm | to work out if you want to buy the bigger lots. | Apr 01 04:19 |
| oiaohm | What is the point of paying for a idea that was invalid. | Apr 01 04:19 |
| _Hicham_1 | there should be some authority to hold the source code for any software before it is released | Apr 01 04:19 |
| oiaohm | Software needs to be treated like books. | Apr 01 04:20 |
| _Hicham_1 | the lacks of software authorities is a problem | Apr 01 04:20 |
| oiaohm | You print a book it has to go to national arcive for storage. | Apr 01 04:20 |
| _Hicham_1 | there should be one | Apr 01 04:20 |
| oiaohm | when the copyright expires it becomes public doman. | Apr 01 04:20 |
| _Hicham_1 | yes | Apr 01 04:21 |
| oiaohm | I am not anti-closed source. | Apr 01 04:21 |
| _Hicham_1 | that is what i want to say | Apr 01 04:21 |
| oiaohm | closed source has its place in the market. | Apr 01 04:21 |
| _Hicham_1 | anti-closed is bad | Apr 01 04:21 |
| _Hicham_1 | it is the source for all evil | Apr 01 04:21 |
| oiaohm | unregualated closed source is evil. | Apr 01 04:21 |
| _Hicham_1 | who is regulating closed source? | Apr 01 04:21 |
| oiaohm | No one. | Apr 01 04:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | then it is evil | Apr 01 04:22 |
| oiaohm | There is nothing that keeps it in blance. | Apr 01 04:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | since there is no auditing | Apr 01 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Companies like ID that internally regualate. | Apr 01 04:22 |
| oiaohm | and keep the blance. | Apr 01 04:22 |
| oiaohm | closed source is not evil from them. | Apr 01 04:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | from them, yes | Apr 01 04:22 |
| oiaohm | But you cannot depend on every company to do that. | Apr 01 04:22 |
| _Hicham_1 | but from Microsoft? | Apr 01 04:23 |
| oiaohm | Exacty | Apr 01 04:23 |
| oiaohm | There needs to be laws regulating closed source. | Apr 01 04:23 |
| _Hicham_1 | when u know that advapi32.dll contains an NSA key? | Apr 01 04:23 |
| oiaohm | Not destroying it. | Apr 01 04:23 |
| _Hicham_1 | to whom should u talk? | Apr 01 04:23 |
| oiaohm | Of course so NSA can sign there own parts. | Apr 01 04:23 |
| oiaohm | Problem is the line I follow ends up with you attacked from both sides on closed and open source. | Apr 01 04:24 |
| oiaohm | Closed source zeloits take the point of view source code never has to be released because future products might be based on it. So what I want competition. | Apr 01 04:24 |
| _Hicham_1 | because u r particular | Apr 01 04:24 |
| oiaohm | Open source zeloits take the point of view everything has to be open source no matter the harm it does. | Apr 01 04:25 |
| _Hicham_1 | closed source is against science progress | Apr 01 04:25 |
| oiaohm | ID fully open sourcing everything they would be basically a dead company. | Apr 01 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Its the balancing line. | Apr 01 04:26 |
| _Hicham_1 | with the actual context and laws, I agree with u | Apr 01 04:26 |
| _Hicham_1 | they will be damn dead | Apr 01 04:26 |
| _Hicham_1 | because u can’t sell opensource code | Apr 01 04:26 |
| oiaohm | I guess another convert to my way of seeing closed and open source. | Apr 01 04:27 |
| oiaohm | That neither used right are evil. | Apr 01 04:27 |
| oiaohm | Just everyone has seen abused closed source. | Apr 01 04:27 |
| oiaohm | My major different to most people is I go out of my way to see the complete picture of what my actions will cause. | Apr 01 04:29 |
| _Hicham_1 | that is why I am gonna use oiaohm as my website name | Apr 01 04:29 |
| _Hicham_1 | it will bring a lot of people | Apr 01 04:29 |
| _Hicham_1 | and give me good page ranking in Google | Apr 01 04:29 |
| oiaohm | Supprisly lot of people don’t want to hear the truth. | Apr 01 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Instead they want to follow myths. | Apr 01 04:30 |
| _Hicham_1 | I want to hear the truth | Apr 01 04:30 |
| oiaohm | You are rare. | Apr 01 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Its why I enjoy schestowitz so much. | Apr 01 04:31 |
| oiaohm | both of us love the truth. | Apr 01 04:31 |
| _Hicham_1 | schestowitz is great | Apr 01 04:31 |
| oiaohm | Not matter how bad it is. | Apr 01 04:31 |
| _Hicham_1 | I like to tease him as well | Apr 01 04:31 |
| _Hicham_1 | didn’t think that british people could be that cool | Apr 01 04:31 |
| _Hicham_1 | and Australians also | Apr 01 04:31 |
| oiaohm | I am Australian | Apr 01 04:31 |
| _Hicham_1 | since u share the commonwealth | Apr 01 04:31 |
| _Hicham_1 | I know | Apr 01 04:32 |
| oiaohm | We pick on british | Apr 01 04:32 |
| oiaohm | Normally. | Apr 01 04:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | basically british people are cold | Apr 01 04:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | cold as ice | Apr 01 04:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | but schestowitz is an exception | Apr 01 04:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | and u too | Apr 01 04:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | I thought that u would get upset when I told that I will use ur nickname | Apr 01 04:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | but u didn’t | Apr 01 04:33 |
| oiaohm | I did I prefer it not used. | Apr 01 04:33 |
| oiaohm | It took me a long time to find this one. | Apr 01 04:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | I don’t know why I like too | Apr 01 04:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | it is very mysterious | Apr 01 04:34 |
| oiaohm | My handle is rare. | Apr 01 04:34 |
| oiaohm | I like it that way. | Apr 01 04:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | to who doesn’t know its meaning | Apr 01 04:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | it is funny though | Apr 01 04:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | so u invented it for ur callers? | Apr 01 04:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | when they call for data recovery? | Apr 01 04:34 |
| oiaohm | I invented it when I was a game player. | Apr 01 04:35 |
| oiaohm | I would go to site after site after site and every login I tried was taken. | Apr 01 04:35 |
| oiaohm | hmmm ok i am over here mate first letters might work and be simple to remmber. | Apr 01 04:35 |
| oiaohm | after that it stuck. | Apr 01 04:36 |
| _Hicham_1 | do u still play games? | Apr 01 04:36 |
| oiaohm | I changed from my last handle to oiaohm after a girl was named after it. | Apr 01 04:36 |
| oiaohm | There are problems with creating names that are liked at times. | Apr 01 04:37 |
| oiaohm | Not very much anymore _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 04:37 |
| _Hicham_1 | u should build a business on that | Apr 01 04:37 |
| _Hicham_1 | creating nicknames | Apr 01 04:38 |
| _Hicham_1 | that would a very successful business | Apr 01 04:38 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Apr 01 04:38 |
| _Hicham_1 | why not? | Apr 01 04:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | u will develop some wizard to create nicknames based on some criteria | Apr 01 04:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | and being related to the person in question | Apr 01 04:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | not an ordinary nickname creator | Apr 01 04:39 |
| oiaohm | All my nicks are sentences. | Apr 01 04:39 |
| oiaohm | Bar my really early ones. | Apr 01 04:40 |
| oiaohm | Comes from a method to make hard to crack passwords. | Apr 01 04:40 |
| oiaohm | How to make words that don’t exist in any dict known to man basically. | Apr 01 04:40 |
| oiaohm | htmwtdeiadktm | Apr 01 04:41 |
| _Hicham_1 | so u have ideas for a new business | Apr 01 04:41 |
| oiaohm | Really simple method of construction. | Apr 01 04:41 |
| _Hicham_1 | how old r u oiaohm? | Apr 01 04:42 |
| oiaohm | 33 this year. | Apr 01 04:42 |
| oiaohm | How old are you _Hicham_1 | Apr 01 04:43 |
| _Hicham_1 | 26 | Apr 01 04:43 |
| _Hicham_1 | u have the same age as balzac | Apr 01 04:43 |
| oiaohm | Yes just young enough to missed out on critical mil stones in it history. | Apr 01 04:43 |
| oiaohm | Really that is something that is lacking from this world the study of history. | Apr 01 04:44 |
| _Hicham_1 | I agree | Apr 01 04:44 |
| _Hicham_1 | history is fundamental | Apr 01 04:44 |
| _Hicham_1 | and most of all, we should profit from it | Apr 01 04:44 |
| oiaohm | When I was young I was dumb enough to think writing viruses that killed other virus was a good idea. | Apr 01 04:45 |
| oiaohm | My history is not what you call perfect. | Apr 01 04:45 |
| oiaohm | Main reason people know boycott novell and oiaohm is how constant we are. | Apr 01 04:46 |
| oiaohm | when i use to change my username a lot people did not know me. | Apr 01 04:46 |
| _Hicham_1 | I would recognize u from the way u talk | Apr 01 04:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | well, it have been really nice talking to u tonight | Apr 01 04:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | but it is 4 am in here | Apr 01 04:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | and I am very tired | Apr 01 04:47 |
| oiaohm | Because is 100 percent unique. dyslexia damaged my means to create english. | Apr 01 04:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | are u dyslexic? | Apr 01 04:48 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 01 04:48 |
| oiaohm | Makes coping me and fooling people so hard. | Apr 01 04:48 |
| oiaohm | I have traits that are not normal people that should show up. | Apr 01 04:48 |
| _Hicham_1 | I am really tired | Apr 01 04:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | we will continue this conversation tommorow | Apr 01 04:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | have a good day | Apr 01 04:49 |
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| schestowitz | yo | Apr 01 09:23 |
| MinceR | “Back up my hard drive? I can’t find reverse on this thing” | Apr 01 09:23 |
| MinceR | geekings | Apr 01 09:27 |
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| imamilkydrunk | m$ bought novell at last | Apr 01 09:37 |
| schestowitz | Yes, congrats to them | Apr 01 09:37 |
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| ToreadorVampire | So, did conficker blow the world up yet? | Apr 01 09:42 |
| schestowitz | I don’t know, haven’t checked. | Apr 01 09:45 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 1 09:55:45 2009 | ||
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Apr 01 09:55 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: “Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications” [publicly logged] | Apr 01 09:55 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Sun Oct 5 19:20:28 2008 | Apr 01 09:55 | |
| -ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation. | Apr 01 09:55 | |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Apr 01 09:55 | |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz | Apr 01 09:56 | |
| ToreadorVampire | lol | Apr 01 09:57 |
| ToreadorVampire | My SVN repos is at revision 1337 | Apr 01 09:57 |
| schestowitz | elite | Apr 01 09:57 |
| ToreadorVampire | And now I’ve tagged something, 1338  |
Apr 01 09:59 |
| MinceR |  |
Apr 01 09:59 |
| MinceR | now it’s leeb | Apr 01 09:59 |
| MinceR | soon it will be leeg | Apr 01 10:00 |
| ToreadorVampire | heh | Apr 01 10:00 |
| ToreadorVampire | Well, that’s end of that hack incident from yesterday – all dealt with | Apr 01 10:00 |
| ToreadorVampire | Nasty | Apr 01 10:01 |
| ToreadorVampire | And indicative that that guy’s web hosting is awful | Apr 01 10:01 |
| ToreadorVampire | It wasn’t his site that was compromised – it would have been a whole server full of hosting clients – it was just a scattergun-style attack on the index page of every website found :s | Apr 01 10:02 |
| ToreadorVampire | And they dropped an .htaccess in the root of the site that told the webserver to parse .shtml files as php in order to get their malicious code to execute :( Not good |
Apr 01 10:02 |
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| schestowitz | I wonder if my site problems are related to Conficker | Apr 01 10:07 |
| schestowitz | Maybe DDOS | Apr 01 10:07 |
| schestowitz | I get error and can’t access cpanel, either. Maybe DDOS? | Apr 01 10:08 |
| schestowitz | “Server Load 30.16 (4 cpus)” | Apr 01 10:12 |
| schestowitz | BN seems to be under some DDOS attack or something | Apr 01 10:13 |
| schestowitz | “Swap Used 61.12 %” | Apr 01 10:14 |
| schestowitz | I wonder if my site is down because of Conficker DDOS. Totally overloaded by junk. | Apr 01 10:14 |
| schestowitz | Unless it’s a memory leak, boycottnovell is under DDOS attack and thus inaccesible. | Apr 01 10:24 |
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| schestowitz | Group Takes Conficker Fight to a New Level < http://www.pcworld.com/article/162… > | Apr 01 10:26 |
| PetoKraus | hmm | Apr 01 10:26 |
| PetoKraus | is conficker doing anything already? | Apr 01 10:26 |
| schestowitz | ‘Conficker’ Worm Wakes Up, But It’s Quiet < http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,28… > | Apr 01 10:27 |
| schestowitz | April Fools’ computer worm surfaces < http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TEC… > | Apr 01 10:27 |
| schestowitz | “And its ability to do that is cleverly designed: Conficker.c has a feature that disables the Windows update program in the Microsoft product, keeping Windows from becoming patched, Pirillo said. It also disables the auto-update capabilities of many anti-virus software programs.” | Apr 01 10:27 |
| PetoKraus | Ta | Apr 01 10:28 |
| schestowitz | HP Confirms Considering Android in Netbooks < http://www.pcworld.com/article/1623… > | Apr 01 10:28 |
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| oiaohm | Ok is boycott novell overloaded. | Apr 01 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Apr 01 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Similar to yesterday’s symptom | Apr 01 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Server Load 57.50 (4 cpus) | Apr 01 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Memory Used 95.2 % | Apr 01 10:37 |
| schestowitz | Swap Used 99.99 % | Apr 01 10:37 |
| oiaohm | Ok that is inside a few sniffs of setting off oom killer | Apr 01 10:38 |
| schestowitz | Server bing stabilized | Apr 01 10:54 |
| schestowitz | I’ve no idea what caused it, but I’ll do a post about Conficer later | Apr 01 10:54 |
| schestowitz | BN jumped in traffic rank to 2200th on the Web (Netcraft) | Apr 01 10:56 |
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| oiaohm | Swap goes to 99.99 | Apr 01 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Linux built in overload normally steps in | Apr 01 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Question is what did it kill to bring the system back in order. | Apr 01 11:02 |
| oiaohm | http://oiaohm.blogspot.com/2009… I had to do a april 1 post. Non joke for the hell of it. | Apr 01 11:03 |
| schestowitz | Let me ehceck | Apr 01 11:05 |
| schestowitz | I didn’t know you had a blog. Subscxribed now. | Apr 01 11:06 |
| oiaohm | Its a sometimes blog | Apr 01 11:06 |
| oiaohm | When I feel like it. | Apr 01 11:06 |
| oiaohm | I really don’t advertise. | Apr 01 11:07 |
| schestowitz | Diary so to speak is a good excuse for this | Apr 01 11:07 |
| schestowitz | That’s how I started such stuff. ‘Public’ notes | Apr 01 11:07 |
| schestowitz | BN helps me organise thoughts and material I find helpful | Apr 01 11:08 |
| schestowitz | But sometimes it helps when I think about a person who would read it | Apr 01 11:08 |
| oiaohm | My blogs is normally my pet hates. | Apr 01 11:08 |
| schestowitz | Like a VP at Red Hat or Novell | Apr 01 11:08 |
| schestowitz | I never liked the word blog | Apr 01 11:08 |
| schestowitz | See my personal “Web log” from 2004 | Apr 01 11:08 |
| schestowitz | http://schestowitz.com/Weblog <mind URL | Apr 01 11:09 |
| oiaohm | The closed vs open debate is so stupid in my mind as you could see in that artical. | Apr 01 11:09 |
| schestowitz | True. | Apr 01 11:10 |
| schestowitz | Listen… | Apr 01 11:10 |
| schestowitz | RMS gave this talk | Apr 01 11:10 |
| schestowitz | Where he stresses the old stuff about FS vs OSS | Apr 01 11:10 |
| schestowitz | Which very much relates to this post | Apr 01 11:10 |
| schestowitz | Because had we only exposed source code but kept the same broken model, what would we achieve | Apr 01 11:11 |
| schestowitz | Likewise, had we put blobs in Linux and then made it ubiquitous on desktop, what would be achieved? | Apr 01 11:11 |
| schestowitz | Nothing. | Apr 01 11:11 |
| schestowitz | Just another OS X | Apr 01 11:11 |
| oiaohm | Problem is RMS solution is not perfect for everything. | Apr 01 11:11 |
| schestowitz | So the debate about Freedom *is* important | Apr 01 11:11 |
| schestowitz | Freedom to hack, to fork, to empower users | Apr 01 11:11 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: depends. | Apr 01 11:12 |
| oiaohm | Game developers would not make profit as simple if they followed it. | Apr 01 11:12 |
| schestowitz | I’ve just found some interesting posts | Apr 01 11:12 |
| schestowitz | I’ll write about em later | Apr 01 11:12 |
| oiaohm | Half way suits almost everyone. | Apr 01 11:12 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: there are caveatsx | Apr 01 11:12 |
| oiaohm | Closed source for limited time. | Apr 01 11:12 |
| oiaohm | Forced open sourcing in time. | Apr 01 11:12 |
| oiaohm | Just like the old rules of public domain on books. | Apr 01 11:12 |
| schestowitz | Coyright limits | Apr 01 11:13 |
| oiaohm | Problems repeat themselfs. | Apr 01 11:13 |
| schestowitz | Publisher versus writers | Apr 01 11:13 |
| oiaohm | Users vs Publishers vs writers | Apr 01 11:13 |
| oiaohm | Same battle happens in software. writers are just developers. | Apr 01 11:13 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: NSW seems to be colluding again: http://www.itwire.com/content/v… | Apr 01 11:14 |
| schestowitz | Right next to you… liaising at addict kids at your expense | Apr 01 11:14 |
| schestowitz | Oops | Apr 01 11:14 |
| schestowitz | Pardon me | Apr 01 11:14 |
| schestowitz | Wrong link | Apr 01 11:14 |
| schestowitz | http://www.itwire.com/conten… < corect one | Apr 01 11:15 |
| schestowitz | *correct | Apr 01 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Good link | Apr 01 11:15 |
| oiaohm | The first one. | Apr 01 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Be ware itwire anything with april first as a publishing date is fake. | Apr 01 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Its there tradition. | Apr 01 11:17 |
| oiaohm | No real news on april 1 ever. | Apr 01 11:17 |
| oiaohm | If there is real news it gets published with a really strange date. Like april 0.5 | Apr 01 11:18 |
| oiaohm | Apparently novell fell for it hook line and sinker. | Apr 01 11:19 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: I didn’t read it | Apr 01 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Was there a joke inside? | Apr 01 11:20 |
| schestowitz | Please tell me they say funny stuff. | Apr 01 11:20 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: NOVL is history | Apr 01 11:20 |
| oiaohm | http://www.itwire.com/content/vie… << Best april 1 one this year. | Apr 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | Its sales went down the s*tter | Apr 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | Also, there has been no major deal for them since the last results | Apr 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | They are a dud now and CIOs know it | Apr 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | I saw it but didn’t read it | Apr 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | Alex is trolling Linux | Apr 01 11:21 |
| schestowitz | I don’t like him] | Apr 01 11:22 |
| schestowitz | So the Lenovo deal is a hoax? | Apr 01 11:22 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 01 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Cool. | Apr 01 11:22 |
| oiaohm | itwire april 1 they go nuts. | Apr 01 11:22 |
| schestowitz | I flagged it for later inspection | Apr 01 11:22 |
| schestowitz | Yes, I know | Apr 01 11:22 |
| schestowitz | At least 5 so far | Apr 01 11:22 |
| schestowitz | You won’t see it in ‘respectable’ pubs | Apr 01 11:23 |
| schestowitz | like NYT | Apr 01 11:23 |
| oiaohm | Best year it was 35 fake news articals. | Apr 01 11:23 |
| oiaohm | on april 1 | Apr 01 11:23 |
| oiaohm | Only rule is it must look as real as possiable. | Apr 01 11:23 |
| oiaohm | Hopefully to get a few companies hook line and sinker. | Apr 01 11:23 |
| MinceR | sounds boring | Apr 01 11:24 |
| oiaohm | They got novell this year. | Apr 01 11:24 |
| oiaohm | Best year they got 12 companies too. | Apr 01 11:24 |
| oiaohm | They are not having the best run on there april fools jokes. | Apr 01 11:24 |
| schestowitz | It’s hard to say if our problems were related to Conficker: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/01… | Apr 01 11:28 |
| oiaohm | Also itwire uses april 1 to state anything they suspect as true but cannot confirm. | Apr 01 11:28 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Apr 01 11:29 |
| schestowitz | I know | Apr 01 11:29 |
| schestowitz | That’s the fun of it | Apr 01 11:29 |
| schestowitz | Or things you want to be true, OR | Apr 01 11:29 |
| schestowitz | Things where you want to highlight danger… like NOVL+UNIX —> MSFT | Apr 01 11:29 |
| oiaohm | Conficker publish would have got domain blocked not overloaded. | Apr 01 11:30 |
| oiaohm | If there was a reaction. | Apr 01 11:30 |
| zoobab01 | http://press.ffii.org/Press_releas… | Apr 01 11:31 |
| oiaohm | The cheep licences that MS give to australian schools in the april 1 artical are true. | Apr 01 11:32 |
| schestowitz | yes, but not unique to AU | Apr 01 11:40 |
| schestowitz | zoobab01: +1 +1 | Apr 01 11:40 |
| MinceR | lol | Apr 01 11:44 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft uses publishers to knock Google: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/01/… | Apr 01 12:41 |
| MinceR | google should strike back | Apr 01 12:43 |
| schestowitz | Naa… they are stil gentle compared to MS | Apr 01 13:00 |
| schestowitz | I hate it when companies fight evil with evil | Apr 01 13:00 |
| schestowitz | Like Novell or LF | Apr 01 13:00 |
| schestowitz | Paying IDC shills | Apr 01 13:00 |
| MinceR | the idea is that they’d both die | Apr 01 13:00 |
| schestowitz | Who? | Apr 01 13:01 |
| schestowitz | goog? | Apr 01 13:02 |
| MinceR | m$ and google | Apr 01 13:03 |
| oiaohm | Remember paying shills costs money. | Apr 01 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Let MS keep on doing it. | Apr 01 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Its a complete waste of there resources. | Apr 01 13:05 |
| oiaohm | What profitable does a shill really do. | Apr 01 13:05 |
| schestowitz | The issue is different IMHO | Apr 01 13:11 |
| schestowitz | TYhey get caught | Apr 01 13:11 |
| schestowitz | bad PR | Apr 01 13:11 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: what is better paying a developer or paying a shill | Apr 01 13:15 |
| oiaohm | Short term paying a shill gives a boost. Not paying the developer long term screws you over. | Apr 01 13:16 |
| schestowitz | Yes, same with marketing | Apr 01 13:20 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft and Apple both do it | Apr 01 13:20 |
| schestowitz | But Apple has coders | Apr 01 13:21 |
| schestowitz | Abused BSD devs | Apr 01 13:21 |
| schestowitz | And KHTML and others…. | Apr 01 13:21 |
| zer0c00l | april fool joke http://www.ubuntupocketguide.com/ | Apr 01 13:26 |
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| zer0c00l | “worlds first poetic computer book”  |
Apr 01 13:27 |
| zer0c00l | bbl | Apr 01 13:28 |
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| ToreadorVampire | Mmm … well – I dunno if it’s conficker related or not, but my ssh tunnels to one of my clients keeps dropping today | Apr 01 13:28 |
| ToreadorVampire | And they run an exclusively windows-based network (except for the one Debian server I am using to build this web app for them on) | Apr 01 13:29 |
| ToreadorVampire | Usually those tunnels are rock solid, but today I keep having to pin the damn things up again | Apr 01 13:29 |
| schestowitz | I’m getting DB error | Apr 01 13:31 |
| ToreadorVampire | I get signal! | Apr 01 13:31 |
| ToreadorVampire | Wait, nevermind |
Apr 01 13:31 |
| schestowitz | ToreadorVampire: yes, I hear stories | Apr 01 13:31 |
| schestowitz | It’s wonky overall | Apr 01 13:31 |
| schestowitz | Make backups and find fallbacks | Apr 01 13:31 |
| schestowitz | Like opendns | Apr 01 13:31 |
| oiaohm | There is a lot fo distrubances. | Apr 01 13:35 |
| oiaohm | Really minor thinking all routing networks are on high alert and scanning as many packets as they can. | Apr 01 13:36 |
| schestowitz | zoobab01: have a look at what Apple is up to: US Patent Office exposes Apple secret plan < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0… > | Apr 01 13:36 |
| MinceR | |
Apr 01 13:37 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: the server was rebooted this morning after the trouble | Apr 01 13:39 |
| schestowitz | Second day in a row | Apr 01 13:39 |
| schestowitz | BN did about 300k hits yesterday, despite the downtime | Apr 01 13:40 |
| schestowitz | The FFII is being hilarious about patents: http://press.ffii.org/Press_rele… | Apr 01 13:42 |
| schestowitz | Sys-con junk is floating more junk: “Ulitzer bills itself as a new-age website that will somehow replace the cult of Wikipedia. And judging from the online farce that followed the site’s Friday beta launch, it’s off to a good start.” http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0… | Apr 01 13:43 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is attempting to spin and escape looting stories: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009… | Apr 01 13:45 |
| schestowitz | Is Microsoft shafting its partners? “MS phone being made now at Flextronics” < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquir… > | Apr 01 13:47 |
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| schestowitz | This could, at some stage, bridge the gaming device for GNU/Linux: OnLive games service ‘will work’ < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/te… > | Apr 01 13:54 |
| schestowitz | Maybe powerful people too can be criminalised: Spanish judge to hear torture case against six Bush officials < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2… > | Apr 01 13:56 |
| schestowitz | The melting of Greenland: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/200… | Apr 01 13:57 |
| schestowitz | Conficker: Over 300,000 Domains Blocked, Millions Infected < http://www.internetnews.com/security/… > | Apr 01 14:00 |
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| schestowitz | “MONO(nucleosis), the Microsoft kiss of death disease. After the Tom Tom ordeal, how long do you think it will be before Monopoly$oft starts suing the idiots that drank the MONO koolaid…” http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.ph… | Apr 01 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Tomtom scared the crap out them. | Apr 01 14:03 |
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| schestowitz | Lots more comments here: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_sto… | Apr 01 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Never though for one min that Tomtom with one sign of a pen could go from no effective patents against MS to armed. | Apr 01 14:04 |
| schestowitz | TomTom is a good milestone if you intend to knock some sense into Novell & apologists | Apr 01 14:04 |
| schestowitz | Even ZEMLIN is angry | Apr 01 14:04 |
| oiaohm | OIN does have its place. | Apr 01 14:04 |
| schestowitz | The MS apologist | Apr 01 14:04 |
| schestowitz | Let me find it | Apr 01 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Tomtom is looking at removing fat completely from there products. | Apr 01 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Thank you ms you have just reduced your users compadiblity with third party devices. | Apr 01 14:05 |
| oiaohm | I don’t call MS patent win a win. | Apr 01 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Its a loss. | Apr 01 14:05 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft apologist Zemlin on the TomTom settlement: Microsoft Rolls Back its “Open” Promises < http://www.linux-foundation.org/weblogs… > | Apr 01 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Its also reactived the debate if device makers should design there own filesystem. | Apr 01 14:06 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: they have a similar dilemma with counterfeiting | Apr 01 14:07 |
| schestowitz | You fight, you lose | Apr 01 14:07 |
| schestowitz | You don’t fight, you are de facto standard | Apr 01 14:07 |
| schestowitz | But they don’t know what to do | Apr 01 14:07 |
| schestowitz | Windows margins fall AND | Apr 01 14:08 |
| oiaohm | MS had done there homework on tomtom. | Apr 01 14:08 |
| schestowitz | I posted another thing here ysterday | Apr 01 14:08 |
| schestowitz | Intel and Microsoft will suffer more | Apr 01 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Tomtom had no patents to use against MS. | Apr 01 14:08 |
| schestowitz | sub-notebooks scale up with cheap CPUs and free Window (XP) | Apr 01 14:08 |
| schestowitz | So they make no decent margins when people buy new PCs | Apr 01 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Once they signed OIN agreement they were all of sudden armed with solid unbreakable patents. | Apr 01 14:08 |
| schestowitz | And they won’t buy MSO for full price/at all, either. | Apr 01 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Tomtom has show other small companies they don’t have to take the deal MS puts on the table. | Apr 01 14:09 |
| oiaohm | They can push back. | Apr 01 14:09 |
| oiaohm | And get a more suitable deal for them. | Apr 01 14:10 |
| oiaohm | Ok not what you and I want I wanted a court battle. | Apr 01 14:10 |
| schestowitz | “Shipley told InternetNews.com that the Conficker.C worm has infected about 10 million Windows-based computers in 150 countries, with China’s level of infection estimated at 3 million, Brazil at 1 million and Russia at 800,000. In the United States, researchers suspect about 200,000 computers have been infected.” | Apr 01 14:11 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: no, it’s not over | Apr 01 14:12 |
| schestowitz | SFLC and others are still on it | Apr 01 14:12 |
| schestowitz | Now they can demand that Microsoft folks the card | Apr 01 14:12 |
| schestowitz | And invalidate those patents | Apr 01 14:12 |
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| schestowitz | wb, _Hicham_ | Apr 01 14:12 |
| schestowitz | Spanish judge to hear torture case against six Bush officials < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/200… > | Apr 01 14:12 |
| _Hicham_ | Hi Roy! | Apr 01 14:12 |
| _Hicham_ | how r u doing? | Apr 01 14:12 |
| schestowitz | OK | Apr 01 14:12 |
| _Hicham_ | did u sleep well? | Apr 01 14:13 |
| schestowitz | Site was downed this morning | Apr 01 14:13 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Apr 01 14:13 |
| _Hicham_ | was it an attack? | Apr 01 14:13 |
| MinceR | time for that patent organization you keep mentioning to sue m$ | Apr 01 14:13 |
| schestowitz | Don’t know. Maybe DDOS… server overloaded | Apr 01 14:13 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: OIN? | Apr 01 14:13 |
| schestowitz | I don’t think they can | Apr 01 14:13 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz, don’t u use akamai? | Apr 01 14:13 |
| oiaohm | OIN could. Current stage they are not interested. | Apr 01 14:13 |
| schestowitz | They are defense-only portfunk-junkio | Apr 01 14:13 |
| MinceR | well, this is defense | Apr 01 14:13 |
| MinceR | m$ is trying to kill companies who make linux-based devices | Apr 01 14:14 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: no, CDN | Apr 01 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Its better to have MS force people into be coming members. | Apr 01 14:14 |
| schestowitz | I think they tries | Apr 01 14:14 |
| schestowitz | *tired | Apr 01 14:14 |
| oiaohm | first so when you do hit MS gets kinda crushed. | Apr 01 14:14 |
| schestowitz | That would end the proiblem | Apr 01 14:14 |
| schestowitz | But Microsoft is a predator, aggressor | Apr 01 14:14 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm, did u work today? | Apr 01 14:15 |
| schestowitz | “I think the best thing that could happen to the ‘official’ MySQL is for IBM to complete its acquisition of Sun as fast as possible. That deal, by the way, no matter what rumors you may have heard is still very much alive. ” http://blogs.computerworld… | Apr 01 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Some _Hicham_ | Apr 01 14:19 |
| _Hicham_ | data recovery? | Apr 01 14:19 |
| oiaohm | nop | Apr 01 14:19 |
| oiaohm | General server maintaince. | Apr 01 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Clearing and auditing of logs. | Apr 01 14:20 |
| oiaohm | Nasty job but has to be done from time to time. | Apr 01 14:20 |
| oiaohm | http://oiaohm.blogspot.com/ Forgot to tell you _Hicham_ I do have a blog I sometimes use. | Apr 01 14:21 |
| _Hicham_ | u didn’t use it since February | Apr 01 14:22 |
| _Hicham_ | ur last post was about long time between releases equal quality | Apr 01 14:22 |
| _Hicham_ | u didn’t update it since | Apr 01 14:22 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm helped BN with data recovery of sorts | Apr 01 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Yep normal. | Apr 01 14:23 |
| schestowitz | An asset | Apr 01 14:24 |
| oiaohm | I am one of these people I lack good topics or time blog goes dead. | Apr 01 14:24 |
| schestowitz | Wow. “I wish credativ developers happy hacking!” < http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/03/30… > I thought Roberto disliked RMS and his doctrine. | Apr 01 14:25 |
| oiaohm | I have a topic of next week so it will be good. | Apr 01 14:25 |
| _Hicham_ | u should always write to insure the continuity of the blog | Apr 01 14:25 |
| oiaohm | People always think as software patents as harmful to open source. | Apr 01 14:25 |
| _Hicham_ | are they good for open source? | Apr 01 14:26 |
| schestowitz | A Sun VP just invited me to a conference | Apr 01 14:26 |
| schestowitz | I had to decline | Apr 01 14:26 |
| oiaohm | They are double sided. | Apr 01 14:26 |
| oiaohm | They are harmful to everyone. | Apr 01 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Closed and open source a like. | Apr 01 14:26 |
| schestowitz | open source misses the point | Apr 01 14:26 |
| schestowitz | It’s not about visibility | Apr 01 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Closed can use them against open and open can used it against closed. | Apr 01 14:27 |
| schestowitz | “open source” is a strawman | Apr 01 14:27 |
| schestowitz | Same with closed | Apr 01 14:27 |
| schestowitz | Or proprietary | Apr 01 14:27 |
| oiaohm | And patents is fire | Apr 01 14:27 |
| schestowitz | The distrinction to make is “Free software” and non-free software | Apr 01 14:27 |
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| schestowitz | Software that respects it user vs one that abuses the user | Apr 01 14:27 |
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| oiaohm | Does not work abuse the person doing the work. | Apr 01 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Yet people work. | Apr 01 14:28 |
| schestowitz | I don’t follow | Apr 01 14:29 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz is selling closed source and patented software | Apr 01 14:29 |
| _Hicham_ |  |
Apr 01 14:29 |
| oiaohm | Open source always says respects the user. If user needs software now but lacks the skill and money to pay for it to be developed how can they get it under the open source model. | Apr 01 14:29 |
| schestowitz | “Some bloggers have picked up the stories and may be within their rights to publish while national newspapers cannot. The court order imposing the reporting restrictions says that it only applies to people who know about the restriction.” http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0… Bingo. | Apr 01 14:29 |
| oiaohm | Its a different form of abuse from open source | Apr 01 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Lack of repsonsiveness. | Apr 01 14:30 |
| schestowitz | That’s why blogs beat newspapers sometimes. | Apr 01 14:30 |
| _Hicham_ | I think that games will help Microsoft stay for a while | Apr 01 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Where with closed source they can look at getting there money back from more people. | Apr 01 14:30 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: no, not that | Apr 01 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Different areas | Apr 01 14:31 |
| _Hicham_ | their DirectX is getting accepted | Apr 01 14:31 |
| oiaohm | They are different sides of coin. | Apr 01 14:31 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: don’t miss the point about DRM, forced payment through extortion/access, WGA and the likes of it. Also lockinb | Apr 01 14:31 |
| oiaohm | They both harm users different. | Apr 01 14:31 |
| _Hicham_ | DX10 is already supported by a large area of video cards | Apr 01 14:31 |
| schestowitz | DX10 means nothing | Apr 01 14:31 |
| _Hicham_ | so Linux will still struggle | Apr 01 14:31 |
| schestowitz | Like XD9 | Apr 01 14:31 |
| schestowitz | Just marketing | Apr 01 14:31 |
| schestowitz | But…. | Apr 01 14:31 |
| _Hicham_ | it means a lot | Apr 01 14:31 |
| oiaohm | They both provide different advantages schestowitz | Apr 01 14:31 |
| schestowitz | This may slow down wine | Apr 01 14:32 |
| _Hicham_ | it will slow it a lot | Apr 01 14:32 |
| _Hicham_ | OpenGL is not catching up | Apr 01 14:32 |
| schestowitz | OpenGL has many games | Apr 01 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Think about blance schestowitz what would be required to protect user yet provide most chance they can get the software they need quick. | Apr 01 14:32 |
| schestowitz | Some are run on the server side | Apr 01 14:32 |
| _Hicham_ | not like DX10 | Apr 01 14:32 |
| schestowitz | There are startups explotring this already | Apr 01 14:32 |
| oiaohm | To long term protect users all programs have to go open source eventounraly. | Apr 01 14:33 |
| _Hicham_ | games on the server side? | Apr 01 14:33 |
| schestowitz | You could even do ray-tracing in real-time and stream over the results over the network | Apr 01 14:33 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, I posted this earlier | Apr 01 14:33 |
| oiaohm | But to allow fast responces not all have to be open sourced off the start line. | Apr 01 14:33 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not very efficient | Apr 01 14:33 |
| schestowitz | OnLive games service ‘will work’ < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technolo… > | Apr 01 14:33 |
| _Hicham_ | how can u play a game such as Assassin’s Creed on a server? | Apr 01 14:34 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: true, no efficient, BUT | Apr 01 14:34 |
| _Hicham_ | it needs 3Gb of Ram | Apr 01 14:34 |
| schestowitz | Think about streaming games on stuff like portable PCs | Apr 01 14:34 |
| oiaohm | virtualgl for linux. | Apr 01 14:34 |
| schestowitz | You can’t carry SLIs on the run | Apr 01 14:34 |
| _Hicham_ | 2.26 Core 2 Duo | Apr 01 14:34 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: how much of that memory would be duplicate. | Apr 01 14:34 |
| schestowitz | How nice would it be to move workloads off a thin portable client? | Apr 01 14:34 |
| oiaohm | I have had programs that take 2 gb of ram. | Apr 01 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Only need about 1 meg for another user. | Apr 01 14:35 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: you had Vista? | Apr 01 14:35 |
| _Hicham_ | I don’t think that servers will do that | Apr 01 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Would MS done vista if they had been forced to release windows 2000 schestowitz | Apr 01 14:35 |
| oiaohm | And would be forced to release XP in time. | Apr 01 14:35 |
| _Hicham_ | we will have multiusers for the same game? | Apr 01 14:35 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Apr 01 14:36 |
| schestowitz | Even centralised | Apr 01 14:36 |
| schestowitz | So you can ensure no cheating | Apr 01 14:36 |
| oiaohm | How many cpus do you think fits on a motherboard _Hicham_ | Apr 01 14:36 |
| _Hicham_ | 16 I think | Apr 01 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Max you can fit in a kinda single board is 4096 | Apr 01 14:36 |
| oiaohm | That is a cable joined motherboard. | Apr 01 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Because it would be too large to layout as a single flat board. | Apr 01 14:37 |
| _Hicham_ | won’t that increase with time? | Apr 01 14:37 |
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| oiaohm | O yep. | Apr 01 14:37 |
| _Hicham_ | with chips getting smaller than actual ones? | Apr 01 14:37 |
| oiaohm | Current 4096 is the max Linux can support. | Apr 01 14:37 |
| oiaohm | OS limited not tech limited. | Apr 01 14:38 |
| _Hicham_ | ah I see | Apr 01 14:38 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/20… ‘Venezuelan minx Mendoza, 22, popped into the US’s illegal Caribbean detention centre accompanied by pal Crystle Stewart, who boasts the title Miss USA. On her blog, Mendoza “recounted how she and Stewart met US military personnel and toured the camp, with its barbed wire fences, minefields and watchtowers”, as the Guardian puts it.’ | Apr 01 14:38 |
| _Hicham_ | this server side game will kill hardware makers then | Apr 01 14:38 |
| oiaohm | so ammount of processing power you are talking about is nothing compared to servers. | Apr 01 14:38 |
| _Hicham_ | because as schestowitz said, most of the requirements will disappear | Apr 01 14:38 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: there are extensions in Linux | Apr 01 14:38 |
| schestowitz | It can do more CPUs/cores | Apr 01 14:38 |
| schestowitz | Red hat does the most | Apr 01 14:39 |
| schestowitz | SLES a little less with extensions | Apr 01 14:39 |
| _Hicham_ | how many does RedHat support? | Apr 01 14:39 |
| oiaohm | 4096 is the defualt kernel that performs at high performance. | Apr 01 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Linux can cluster way higher than that. | Apr 01 14:39 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: centralised is also like hypervisors | Apr 01 14:39 |
| schestowitz | So you utilise energy better | Apr 01 14:39 |
| schestowitz | network and routers take the toll | Apr 01 14:39 |
| oiaohm | 4096 I was talking about to the OS its a single motherboard. | Apr 01 14:40 |
| oiaohm | No network. | Apr 01 14:40 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : this technology won’t be good for hardware makers | Apr 01 14:40 |
| schestowitz | No | Apr 01 14:40 |
| schestowitz | Spurious is good | Apr 01 14:40 |
| schestowitz | More excess | Apr 01 14:40 |
| schestowitz | Intel slaughtered by netbooks… | Apr 01 14:40 |
| schestowitz | Profits down 90% in last quarter | Apr 01 14:41 |
| schestowitz | Can you make mone competing ng with ARM? | Apr 01 14:41 |
| schestowitz | *money | Apr 01 14:41 |
| schestowitz | Sub-$100 complete mobos | Apr 01 14:41 |
| _Hicham_ | no one can | Apr 01 14:41 |
| _Hicham_ | sub-$100 is a killer | Apr 01 14:41 |
| _Hicham_ | especially with the crisis | Apr 01 14:42 |
| oiaohm | http://www.redhat.com/rhel/compar… Redhat default kernel stops at 32 processes. | Apr 01 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Most likely because 2.6.29 has 4096 default | Apr 01 14:42 |
| oiaohm | And redhat kernel is not upto that. | Apr 01 14:42 |
| oiaohm | and 255 for amd 64 | Apr 01 14:43 |
| schestowitz | killer to who? | Apr 01 14:43 |
| oiaohm | No where near the max Linux can do. | Apr 01 14:43 |
| oiaohm | ARM makes a proft under 100 | Apr 01 14:43 |
| oiaohm | Note ARM processor type. | Apr 01 14:43 |
| schestowitz | geode is dead, iirc | Apr 01 14:44 |
| oiaohm | intel amd…. basicaly everyone makes arm processes. | Apr 01 14:44 |
| schestowitz | atom is fat | Apr 01 14:44 |
| schestowitz | energy consuming… | Apr 01 14:44 |
| oiaohm | The market is basically swiming in them. | Apr 01 14:44 |
| schestowitz | ticklessness needed also | Apr 01 14:44 |
| schestowitz | intel to licese arm tech? | Apr 01 14:45 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wik… | Apr 01 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Note 3/4 of all 32 bit processors sold world wide is arm. | Apr 01 14:45 |
| schestowitz | Only that? | Apr 01 14:46 |
| schestowitz | I thought more. | Apr 01 14:46 |
| oiaohm | x86 is only a very small section of the market. | Apr 01 14:46 |
| schestowitz | I read that only 2% of world’s CPUs target desktops | Apr 01 14:46 |
| schestowitz | Puts ‘Windows domination’ in perspective, doesn’t it? | Apr 01 14:46 |
| oiaohm | x86 desktops and servers had to fit somewhere. | Apr 01 14:46 |
| schestowitz | Linux is probably running on more ‘computers’ than Windows | Apr 01 14:46 |
| oiaohm | Not more computers | Apr 01 14:46 |
| oiaohm | More devices yes. | Apr 01 14:46 |
| schestowitz | Same thing | Apr 01 14:47 |
| oiaohm | More cpu cores yes. | Apr 01 14:47 |
| schestowitz | Computer = CPU+other bits | Apr 01 14:47 |
| oiaohm | remember a supercomputer would be counted as 1 in some cases. | Apr 01 14:47 |
| schestowitz | Some doors are computers | Apr 01 14:47 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yes, thus the looselessly of the def | Apr 01 14:47 |
| oiaohm | +1 million chips 1 count | Apr 01 14:47 |
| schestowitz | Regardless of size | Apr 01 14:47 |
| schestowitz | Lies, dman lies, and stats | Apr 01 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Its really trick to work out how to count googles server. | Apr 01 14:48 |
| schestowitz | Some stupid trade journals call “Desktops” computers | Apr 01 14:48 |
| schestowitz | Therein the confusion gets generated | Apr 01 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Its multi location and huge. | Apr 01 14:48 |
| schestowitz | And “computers” have viruses | Apr 01 14:48 |
| schestowitz | Like it a bacterial infection in h/w | Apr 01 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Linux does sometimes get viruses | Apr 01 14:48 |
| _Hicham_ | Computers have viruses | Apr 01 14:49 |
| schestowitz | Google is said to have abour 1 million servers | Apr 01 14:49 |
| _Hicham_ | because Computers are equipped with Windows | Apr 01 14:49 |
| schestowitz | Some might be old, but I reckon that most are big racks with multi-core | Apr 01 14:49 |
| _Hicham_ | Windows is stuck with the H/W | Apr 01 14:49 |
| schestowitz | It’s bundled | Apr 01 14:49 |
| schestowitz | That’s what keeps em going | Apr 01 14:49 |
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| _Hicham_ | people don’t make a difference between Windows and H/W | Apr 01 14:50 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : would u work for MS? | Apr 01 14:50 |
| schestowitz | Firefox 3.0 ekes ahead of Internet Explorer 7 in Europe < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/01… > No idea of how accurate this is. | Apr 01 14:52 |
| schestowitz | The illegal bundling following the crimes against Netscape too is a facto | Apr 01 14:52 |
| _Hicham_ | I am glad Mozilla is created | Apr 01 14:52 |
| _Hicham_ | Mozilla did help the Web a lot | Apr 01 14:52 |
| oiaohm | Most unlikely _Hicham_ | Apr 01 14:53 |
| _Hicham_ | how oiaohm? | Apr 01 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Some how I suspect I would be too likely to thump someone at MS. | Apr 01 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Not like MS Windows has ever given me a good time. | Apr 01 14:54 |
| _Hicham_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSG-VVRwePc | Apr 01 14:54 |
| _Hicham_ | it is an old video | Apr 01 14:55 |
| _Hicham_ | but interesting | Apr 01 14:55 |
| oiaohm | ARM is one of the processes I dont’ mind using for embeded work. | Apr 01 14:56 |
| oiaohm | You can basically have the chip customised anyway you need. | Apr 01 14:57 |
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| schestowitz | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread… “You know what scared ME from using Windows? Working for Microsoft for 14 years, 4 of them in the Windows division. One of the reasons I left the company (other than the over-abundance of incompetent people) was the lack of confidence I had in Microsoft’s ability to deliver a quality OS — and they proved it with Vista.” | Apr 01 15:00 |
| schestowitz | Why Red Hat keeps out of desktops, with the exception of Fedora: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/01… | Apr 01 15:25 |
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| Balrog | also see http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=… | Apr 01 15:52 |
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| *schestowitz looks | Apr 01 15:59 | |
| schestowitz | Yes, I saw this earlier in Digg and posted this here. | Apr 01 15:59 |
| schestowitz | There is another good one. | Apr 01 15:59 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: you really gave it to RMS, didn’t you? | Apr 01 15:59 |
| Balrog | …gave /what/ to RMS? | Apr 01 16:07 |
| Balrog | you’ve misquoted itwire … “Letter from a CIO: why Conficker won’t hurt our company” | Apr 01 16:07 |
| Balrog | you mean asked too many questions?  |
Apr 01 16:08 |
| Balrog | or what? | Apr 01 16:08 |
| Balrog | [?] | Apr 01 16:09 |
| schestowitz | Which question was this? | Apr 01 16:09 |
| schestowitz | Wasn’t it a criticism about him not explaining fair use? | Apr 01 16:09 |
| Balrog | that was someone else. | Apr 01 16:10 |
| Balrog | I asked various little questions | Apr 01 16:10 |
| schestowitz | Australia fooled by April Fool’s Day pranks < http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/new… > | Apr 01 16:10 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: ah, OK | Apr 01 16:10 |
| schestowitz | Cause you said something about fair use | Apr 01 16:10 |
| Balrog | the very last, for example | Apr 01 16:10 |
| schestowitz | When RMS escaped… | Apr 01 16:10 |
| schestowitz | He answered the questions poorly | Apr 01 16:10 |
| schestowitz | Poor performance that say, relatively. | Apr 01 16:11 |
| schestowitz | And he should play less with his hair |
Apr 01 16:11 |
| Balrog | at the end I complained about the VB.NET courses the school forces IST majors | Apr 01 16:11 |
| Balrog | yeah lol | Apr 01 16:11 |
| Balrog | forces on * | Apr 01 16:11 |
| Balrog | I feel that policy (of the school) isn’t fair | Apr 01 16:12 |
| schestowitz | sometimes corrupt | Apr 01 16:13 |
| schestowitz | To the extend that universities allow people to have companies inherit students | Apr 01 16:13 |
| Balrog | I don’t know in this case. There are two people in particular who seem to be involved, but I won’t name names | Apr 01 16:13 |
| schestowitz | Even wrong for Google, IBM, etc. | Apr 01 16:13 |
| Balrog | the chairman didn’t know about it :O | Apr 01 16:13 |
| schestowitz | Kickbacks are common | Apr 01 16:13 |
| schestowitz | In many walks of life | Apr 01 16:13 |
| schestowitz | The important thing is to expose them | Apr 01 16:14 |
| Balrog | true. | Apr 01 16:14 |
| schestowitz | It can be soft bribes too | Apr 01 16:14 |
| Balrog | we’ve got enough supporters of FOSS around here though | Apr 01 16:14 |
| schestowitz | Like, “you put some .NET on the curriculum.” A year later the professor gets a job offer from Microsoft. | Apr 01 16:14 |
| schestowitz | Very common. | Apr 01 16:14 |
| schestowitz | happened with the Buton Group that smeared ODF | Apr 01 16:14 |
| Balrog | these are older professors btw … very close to retiring | Apr 01 16:14 |
| schestowitz | They pay using contracts and stuff. | Apr 01 16:14 |
| Balrog | or past retirement ag | Apr 01 16:15 |
| Balrog | age * | Apr 01 16:15 |
| Balrog | so idk how applicable that would be. | Apr 01 16:15 |
| schestowitz | They can be repayed through their kids | Apr 01 16:15 |
| Balrog | true. | Apr 01 16:15 |
| schestowitz | Their kids could be MS programmers | Apr 01 16:15 |
| Balrog | I’m not going to accuse anyone of that yet though, because that would be pure speculation | Apr 01 16:15 |
| Balrog | first see what can be done using regular means | Apr 01 16:16 |
| Balrog | right? | Apr 01 16:17 |
| schestowitz | Google enters netbooks now. Ballmer explicitly said he was afraid of this, which means it’s good. http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breakingn… http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news… | Apr 01 16:22 |
| schestowitz | http://news.zdnet.com/21… http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/… | Apr 01 16:22 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: it’s hard to catch this | Apr 01 16:22 |
| MinceR | so a new, crippled generation of netbooks is born. | Apr 01 16:23 |
| MinceR | perhaps google wants to compete with the vista7 version that’s limited to 3 apps at the same time :> | Apr 01 16:23 |
| schestowitz | That’s easy | Apr 01 16:25 |
| schestowitz | Funny thing is this: | Apr 01 16:25 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is trying to strangle GNU/Linux by dumping | Apr 01 16:26 |
| schestowitz | The strangulation works against Microsoft | Apr 01 16:26 |
| schestowitz | It shoots itself in he foot by promoting the perception (and reality) that Windows is gratis. OEMs will get spolited | Apr 01 16:26 |
| schestowitz | *spoiled | Apr 01 16:26 |
| schestowitz | If Microsoft’s press is promoting Mono < http://visualstudiomagazine.com/n… >, then it must be bad for GNU/Linux. | Apr 01 16:37 |
| ToreadorVampire | Ooh, code folding in monodevelop 2.0 | Apr 01 16:50 |
| ToreadorVampire | <_< | Apr 01 16:50 |
| ToreadorVampire | >_> | Apr 01 16:50 |
| ToreadorVampire | I mean, erm, boo, hiss! | Apr 01 16:50 |
| schestowitz | I’m going to write more about this later | Apr 01 16:51 |
| schestowitz | After the FAT case they get ridiculed by more people | Apr 01 16:52 |
| schestowitz | I’m trying to think of a momorable name to convey the idea that mono is FAT | Apr 01 16:52 |
| schestowitz | Something which says that Mono is begging for another case of “taking out of the FAT (Mono)” | Apr 01 16:52 |
| schestowitz | “Ballnux” is a good reminder to people that SLE* is just Ballmer’s preferred ‘Linux’ distro, so how about something like Ballmono? | Apr 01 16:54 |
| *ToreadorVampire shrugs | Apr 01 16:55 | |
| ToreadorVampire | But I do concede that some day I’m gonna have to learn python | Apr 01 16:55 |
| ToreadorVampire | Coz right now .NET/Mono/Monodevelop is my development environment of choice | Apr 01 16:56 |
| schestowitz | Go-oo is being called “Novell- and Microsoft-backed fork” http://ostatic.com/blog/benchma… It’s interesting because they acknowledge it’s a fork, and one that’s backed by Microsoft with Novell, which pays Microsoft for patents. | Apr 01 16:57 |
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| Yfrwlf | Too bad most governments are so prone to business lobbyists, instead of the citizens they’re supposed to be supporting. Otherwise none of this would have happened. |
Apr 01 17:01 |
| Yfrwlf | And this site wouldn’t have to exist. |
Apr 01 17:01 |
| schestowitz | Hey | Apr 01 17:02 |
| *schestowitz reads comment | Apr 01 17:02 | |
| Yfrwlf | just random mumbling ^^ | Apr 01 17:02 |
| Yfrwlf | and my typical whining about a universal package management system to give Linux users real freedom |
Apr 01 17:03 |
| schestowitz | yes, crime is a peril to Free software | Apr 01 17:03 |
| schestowitz | it’s adverse to honesty | Apr 01 17:03 |
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| schestowitz | The IRC channel is more political than the site | Apr 01 17:04 |
| schestowitz | Earlier on we discussed with Balrog how professors put .NET on the agenda, possibly for kickbacks | Apr 01 17:04 |
| Yfrwlf | crime hurts anything community-driven, really | Apr 01 17:04 |
| Yfrwlf | it happens, kickbacks are commonplace in the business world I’m sad to say | Apr 01 17:04 |
| Yfrwlf | bribing is sooooooo expected | Apr 01 17:05 |
| Yfrwlf | here’s $100 to say/do blahblahblah, yay! | Apr 01 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Some people are not hurt | Apr 01 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Because being outside community they accept things blindly | Apr 01 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Until there’s a great depression | Apr 01 17:05 |
| Yfrwlf | if they’re selfish and don’t think about anyone else but themselves, then they do things without thinking even though it effects others. | Apr 01 17:06 |
| Yfrwlf | *real* teachers would think about how it effects their students. | Apr 01 17:06 |
| schestowitz | hey usually are selfish | Apr 01 17:06 |
| schestowitz | The system –like the voting system–must take this into account | Apr 01 17:07 |
| schestowitz | It rarely does | Apr 01 17:07 |
| Yfrwlf | a teachers job is to give fair and balanced approaches, and not take advantage of their students for a measly $100 =P | Apr 01 17:07 |
| schestowitz | Lobbyists are bridges for those who run the system and corporation | Apr 01 17:07 |
| schestowitz | *s | Apr 01 17:07 |
| schestowitz | Like middlemen not just for money but also for favours (same thing) | Apr 01 17:07 |
| schestowitz | The problem is that bribes are likely to risse not | Apr 01 17:08 |
| schestowitz | *rise now | Apr 01 17:08 |
| schestowitz | More poor analysts without business | Apr 01 17:08 |
| schestowitz | They’ll sell out. | Apr 01 17:08 |
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