| jose__ |
i’m boring the heck out of myself ..that’s for sure |
Feb 04 03:07 |
| schestowitz |
oob: let me check |
Feb 04 03:10 |
| schestowitz |
I remember their OOXML stint/stunt |
Feb 04 03:10 |
| schestowitz |
Why do they play with criminals? |
Feb 04 03:11 |
| oob |
yes. damning with faint praise, organising a pro-ms conference, sabotaging the Oz ISO vote.. |
Feb 04 03:11 |
| schestowitz |
Because the criminals say “We’re nice people”? |
Feb 04 03:11 |
| oob |
the waughs are wholly self-interested. their raison d’etre is self promotion. FOSS has been their vehicle and they’ll move from it readily when a more suitable vehicle presents itself |
Feb 04 03:14 |
| oob |
i have no doubt that jeff has sucked upon the redmond teat financially. |
Feb 04 03:15 |
| schestowitz |
I think they get bamboozled by Microsoft/Novell sometimes |
Feb 04 03:16 |
| schestowitz |
I don’t think it’s badly intended |
Feb 04 03:16 |
| schestowitz |
But Waugh ignores the criminal behaviour of these criminals |
Feb 04 03:17 |
| schestowitz |
To make matter worse in such situations, such people expect you to to pardon and hug criminals |
Feb 04 03:17 |
| oob |
i disagree – i think that gnome in particular and the community of f/oss has been (and continues to be) cynically exploited by the waughs. |
Feb 04 03:17 |
| schestowitz |
Fialing that, they call you names like the daemonisation term of the day (hater|zealot|etc) |
Feb 04 03:18 |
| oob |
“vocal minority” is my favorite |
Feb 04 03:18 |
| schestowitz |
How could Jeff benefit from Redmond |
Feb 04 03:18 |
| oob |
it’s a venacular perpared for them by pr folks in salt lake and redmond |
Feb 04 03:18 |
| schestowitz |
Unless the Vole hired him or his wife (not impossible), then I don’t quite see it |
Feb 04 03:18 |
| schestowitz |
oob: *LOL* |
Feb 04 03:19 |
| schestowitz |
Yes, “vocal minority”* *copyright, Waugh Partners |
Feb 04 03:19 |
| oiaohm |
http://linux-haters.blogspot.com/ LOL 1 char out |
Feb 04 03:19 |
| oob |
consultancy fees? how much did jolliffe receive for his anti-odf work? |
Feb 04 03:19 |
| schestowitz |
A ot |
Feb 04 03:19 |
| schestowitz |
A lot |
Feb 04 03:19 |
| schestowitz |
But did they do sellout (aka) consulting for Microsoft? |
Feb 04 03:19 |
| oob |
why would anyone do what they did for free? |
Feb 04 03:20 |
| oob |
better question – how much would it cost to purchase jeff waugh’s integrity? |
Feb 04 03:20 |
| oob |
my guess is very, very little |
Feb 04 03:21 |
| schestowitz |
How would they be paid to promote the Microsoft party line, if at all though? |
Feb 04 03:21 |
| schestowitz |
know about Redmok selling out |
Feb 04 03:22 |
| schestowitz |
*Redmonk |
Feb 04 03:22 |
| oob |
they own a consultancy practice. i imagine that business’s accounts would make interesting reading |
Feb 04 03:23 |
| oiaohm |
I always like one of the questions I heard in one interview |
Feb 04 03:23 |
| oiaohm |
to balmer |
Feb 04 03:23 |
| oiaohm |
How much would it cost to buy you to push open source. |
Feb 04 03:23 |
| oob |
oiaohm, what was the response? |
Feb 04 03:24 |
| oiaohm |
No answer |
Feb 04 03:25 |
| oiaohm |
Interview ended. |
Feb 04 03:25 |
| schestowitz |
No talking points? |
Feb 04 03:26 |
| schestowitz |
http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/… |
Feb 04 03:27 |
| schestowitz |
gn |
Feb 04 03:29 |
| oiaohm |
schestowitz: look at that linux-haters blog someone put up a joke. |
Feb 04 03:29 |
| oiaohm |
Wonder if we could get a stack of people google it and visit is so making it the top google search. |
Feb 04 03:29 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) |
Feb 04 03:54 |
| tessier__ |
schestowitz: I never personally met Hans Reiser. Only dealt with him briefly via email. |
Feb 04 04:53 |
| tessier__ |
But yes, I think he did have issues even before Linux. |
Feb 04 04:53 |
| balzac |
lart |
Feb 04 04:53 |
| *amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-185-56.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 05:02 |
| *amarsh04__ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-108-167.lns10.adl6.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 05:09 |
| jose__ |
schestowitz, I think the last draft sent at this time is good to go. [It ends with link xxxxx....0013 ] Thanks. |
Feb 04 05:18 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)) |
Feb 04 05:18 |
| jose__ |
You can just say that this is the first part of possibly 3 parts. |
Feb 04 05:19 |
| jose__ |
The rest is explained at the end of part 1. |
Feb 04 05:19 |
| jose__ |
so there is no need to repeat it in your introduction.. if you introduce it. |
Feb 04 05:20 |
| jose__ |
ie, there is no need to add the synopsis i wrote in that earlier draft even though it’s still accurate. |
Feb 04 05:20 |
| *amarsh04_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 05:22 |
| *balzac has quit (“Ex-Chat”) |
Feb 04 05:22 |
| *jose__ has quit (“Leaving”) |
Feb 04 05:23 |
| *amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-24-6.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 05:24 |
| *amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-170-244.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 05:39 |
| *amarsh04__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 05:40 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 05:55 |
| *MinceR has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) |
Feb 04 06:15 |
| *MinceR (n=mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 06:15 |
| *Ziggyfish has quit (“Leaving”) |
Feb 04 06:30 |
| *amarsh04__ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-59-205.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 06:37 |
| *amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04 |
Feb 04 06:44 |
| *amarsh04__ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-203-61.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 06:49 |
| *amarsh04_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 06:52 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 07:05 |
| *Casperin (n=Casperin@1607ds6-vby.0.fullrate.dk) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 07:07 |
| *oob has quit (“Leaving”) |
Feb 04 07:08 |
| *kentma1 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) |
Feb 04 07:11 |
| *Casperin has quit (Remote closed the connection) |
Feb 04 07:39 |
| *ramnish (n=ramnish@117.97.120.137) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 07:40 |
| *ramnish has quit (“Leaving”) |
Feb 04 07:57 |
| *amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-58-204.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 08:42 |
| *amarsh04__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 08:56 |
| schestowitz |
Morning |
Feb 04 09:05 |
| PetoKraus |
morning |
Feb 04 09:33 |
| *[H]omer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 09:34 |
| *[H]omer (n=[H]omer@amsterdam.perfect-privacy.com) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 09:35 |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to [H]omer |
Feb 04 09:35 |
| MinceR |
geekings |
Feb 04 09:37 |
| *oob (n=oob@125-236-204-237.adsl.xtra.co.nz) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 10:06 |
| oob |
good evening |
Feb 04 10:06 |
| schestowitz |
Hey |
Feb 04 10:07 |
| schestowitz |
Just got a new comment on the Waugh article |
Feb 04 10:07 |
| schestowitz |
Interest one. Have a look. |
Feb 04 10:07 |
| oob |
i wrote it |
Feb 04 10:08 |
| schestowitz |
Ah, OK |
Feb 04 10:09 |
| *flex_ has quit (“Leaving”) |
Feb 04 10:11 |
| *flex_ (n=flex@61.14.130.209) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 10:14 |
| *[H]omer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 10:56 |
| *mib_4gfman (i=53c81ae2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e618c691d038dbd9) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 10:58 |
| *mib_4gfman has quit (Client Quit) |
Feb 04 10:58 |
| *[H]omer (n=[H]omer@amsterdam.perfect-privacy.com) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 11:02 |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to [H]omer |
Feb 04 11:02 |
| *r0ver (n=r0ver@201-212-52-58.cab.prima.net.ar) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 11:15 |
| *tanderson has quit (Remote closed the connection) |
Feb 04 11:21 |
| *tanderson (n=gentoofa@gentoo/developer/gentoofan23) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 11:21 |
| *r0ver (n=r0ver@201-212-52-58.cab.prima.net.ar) has left #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 11:28 |
| *[H]omer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 11:44 |
| *[H]omer (n=[H]omer@amsterdam.perfect-privacy.com) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 12:02 |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to [H]omer |
Feb 04 12:02 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 12:04 |
| oiaohm |
Hmm everyone asleep? |
Feb 04 12:28 |
| oob |
hello oiaohm, nice to see you |
Feb 04 12:29 |
| schestowitz |
Hey, wb |
Feb 04 12:29 |
| oiaohm |
Ok just nothing of interest. |
Feb 04 12:30 |
| oiaohm |
Embrace and Extend MS model. KDE appears to be copying it. |
Feb 04 12:31 |
| oob |
how so? |
Feb 04 12:31 |
| oiaohm |
Embrace MS and Mac and extend them. |
Feb 04 12:32 |
| MinceR |
please start making sense |
Feb 04 12:33 |
| oob |
link? |
Feb 04 12:33 |
| oiaohm |
Goal of KDE 4.x line is to run everywhere. |
Feb 04 12:34 |
| oob |
how is that embrace and extend? |
Feb 04 12:35 |
| oiaohm |
If it simple to build applications for KDE cross platform than what its is for windows you have embranced windows and effectively slowly take its applications to the new extented api. |
Feb 04 12:36 |
| oiaohm |
KDE 4.2 almost can replace the complete windows desktop interface. |
Feb 04 12:38 |
| oob |
sounds like wishful thinking to me. surely ms has an inherent and unassailable advantage through control of their platform? |
Feb 04 12:38 |
| oiaohm |
The thing here MS really does not. |
Feb 04 12:39 |
| oiaohm |
KDE sits on QT. You kill QT you kill Photoshop. |
Feb 04 12:39 |
| schestowitz |
oiaohm: embrace and extend is when Microsoft does it |
Feb 04 12:39 |
| schestowitz |
Firefox is embrace and extend?? |
Feb 04 12:40 |
| oiaohm |
Firefox is not altering the API that programmers use. |
Feb 04 12:40 |
| oiaohm |
KDE is a huge API set for application development in its own right. |
Feb 04 12:41 |
| oiaohm |
Its almost larger than the MS default API in Windows. |
Feb 04 12:41 |
| oiaohm |
At some point the Open Source world had to try to take the thrid party application developers away from Microsoft. |
Feb 04 12:44 |
| oob |
agreed |
Feb 04 12:44 |
| MinceR |
oiaohm: explain the “extinguish” part now |
Feb 04 12:45 |
| MinceR |
protip: FLOSS can’t do it |
Feb 04 12:45 |
| oiaohm |
Extinguish FLOSS can do. Look at the Unix world and you will see how. |
Feb 04 12:46 |
| oiaohm |
Extinguish is quite simplely devaluing the closed source product. |
Feb 04 12:46 |
| MinceR |
yet most FLOSS sw still can run on unix |
Feb 04 12:46 |
| MinceR |
this quite simply has nothing to do with EEE |
Feb 04 12:47 |
| oob |
back up – how is unix devalued? |
Feb 04 12:47 |
| oiaohm |
KDE on Windows does open up a direct threat against Outlook exchanage combination for business. |
Feb 04 12:47 |
| oiaohm |
Linux could do what Unix could without the cost. |
Feb 04 12:47 |
| MinceR |
an important portion of EEE is that you _change_ the standards to an obscure form others can’t stay compatible with |
Feb 04 12:48 |
| oiaohm |
So for a lot of tasks price could be demarded for Unix disappeared. |
Feb 04 12:48 |
| MinceR |
how do you obscure the formats/protocols of FLOSS? |
Feb 04 12:48 |
| oob |
oiaohm, that’s an oversimplification |
Feb 04 12:48 |
| oiaohm |
Unix holds on where it still has advantages. |
Feb 04 12:48 |
| oiaohm |
Areas where its advantages have not been devalued. |
Feb 04 12:49 |
| oob |
MinceR makes a good point, particularly as abi/api stability as heeb a tradional f/oss issue |
Feb 04 12:49 |
| MinceR |
traditional floss issue, except it happens to non-floss too? |
Feb 04 12:49 |
| MinceR |
see dll hell. |
Feb 04 12:49 |
| oob |
linux’s advantages over unix appear to me to be mindshare, licencing and x86, |
Feb 04 12:50 |
| oiaohm |
There are solutions to dll hell. |
Feb 04 12:50 |
| MinceR |
one of them is upgrading to linux. |
Feb 04 12:51 |
| oiaohm |
Linux has dependancy hell in lots of distributions. |
Feb 04 12:51 |
| oob |
proprietary systems have tended to have more stable apis/abis, hence their backwards compatability. f/oss projects are unconstrained in this by paying customers |
Feb 04 12:51 |
| oiaohm |
That is kinda worse. |
Feb 04 12:51 |
| MinceR |
unix is dying because nobody wants to reinvent the wheel when they can cooperate with others instead. |
Feb 04 12:51 |
| oiaohm |
Depends on the Foss project. |
Feb 04 12:51 |
| MinceR |
unix is much more expensive to maintain than linux |
Feb 04 12:51 |
| oob |
i disagree |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| MinceR |
(on the developer side) |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| oiaohm |
Incorrect solarias has always had better configruation tools for a lot of things. |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| MinceR |
135604 < oob> proprietary systems have tended to have more stable apis/abis, hence their backwards compatability. f/oss projects are unconstrained |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| MinceR |
in this by paying customers |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| oiaohm |
Reason why its still holding on. |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| MinceR |
do red hat and canonical ring a bell? |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| oob |
having had quite a long career doing both, from the sys maintenance side |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| MinceR |
or dozens other companies who develop FLOSS and have paying customers? |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| MinceR |
oiaohm: 135640 < MinceR> (on the developer side) |
Feb 04 12:52 |
| oiaohm |
Same on the developer side as well. Dtrace so you found problems quicky on solarias |
Feb 04 12:53 |
| oob |
MinceR, distributions have a vested interest in api/abi stability, projects have less of an interest. do you appreciate the distinction? |
Feb 04 12:53 |
| oiaohm |
Yes it was faster in some cases to rebuild the program giving you trouble in Linux on solarias and debug it there. |
Feb 04 12:53 |
| MinceR |
oiaohm: never mind having to develop the same feature for all unixes separately |
Feb 04 12:53 |
| MinceR |
oob: distros patch projects when needed |
Feb 04 12:54 |
| oiaohm |
Linux pased a lot of the Unixs. |
Feb 04 12:54 |
| MinceR |
often they contribute to them too |
Feb 04 12:54 |
| oiaohm |
Solarias is the last one standing. |
Feb 04 12:54 |
| MinceR |
oiaohm: what about developing kernel components? |
Feb 04 12:54 |
| oob |
mincer – patching is not necessarily breaking api/abi compatibility. |
Feb 04 12:54 |
| MinceR |
oob: it might fix compatibility issues though. |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| oiaohm |
Simpler in solarias until recently due to a stable ABI in kernel space and better debuging tools. |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| MinceR |
for example, backporting features to an older version. |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| MinceR |
(so you can use the older version and get the new features/bugfixes) |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| oiaohm |
Basically Linux lost on most fronts against solarias |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| MinceR |
lol |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| oob |
true, that helps to smooth things out |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| MinceR |
yes, we can see the whole world using solaris now |
Feb 04 12:55 |
| oob |
but consider – will kde 3.5 applications run on a user’s desktop if that user has just installed kde 4.2? |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| oiaohm |
Solarias has lost in some places as well. |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| MinceR |
sun isn’t afraid of linux at all, no sir! |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| MinceR |
oob: they probably will |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| oob |
and contrast that with a user who installs windows xp and tries to execute a windows 2000 application. |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| oiaohm |
Linux can scale to larger systems than Solarais |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| MinceR |
oob: even if installing kde 3.5 apps brings in kde3 libraries |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| oob |
maybe so, but my bet would be that the windows user has a better chance of success |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| MinceR |
oob: compare it to running a winxp app on vista |
Feb 04 12:56 |
| MinceR |
guess what, they break |
Feb 04 12:57 |
| oiaohm |
Linux only started beating Solarais when it started matching solarias or beating solarias in areas. |
Feb 04 12:57 |
| oob |
really? that’s interesting |
Feb 04 12:57 |
| MinceR |
but you won’t get winxp components on vista to help run those apps |
Feb 04 12:57 |
| oiaohm |
Problem is by the end of 2010 Solarias might not have a unque feature better than Linux any more. |
Feb 04 12:57 |
| oiaohm |
If anything it will behind on every front. |
Feb 04 12:57 |
| oiaohm |
So defeated. |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| oob |
oiaohm, i can think of very few technical advantages linux enjoys over solaris. i think the success there is more attributable to the prevalance of x86 tin over sparc and cost |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| schestowitz |
And cost |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| oiaohm |
Linux kernel 4000+ processor support in a single system. |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| schestowitz |
Oops. You said that already |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| oiaohm |
Solarias does not have that. |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| MinceR |
oiaohm: it’s defeated because only sun can/will improve it |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| oob |
 |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| MinceR |
which is exactly what i was talking about |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| oiaohm |
Not really. |
Feb 04 12:58 |
| schestowitz |
MinceR: but there is ‘open’ solaris |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| oiaohm |
Solaris does not have the suppers to design that large any more. |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| schestowitz |
Roll up your sleeves and help Sun |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| oob |
too little too late there i reckon schestowitz |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| MinceR |
which is still owned by sun and about which nobody else cares |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| schestowitz |
Write some patches for them to defeat GNU |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| oiaohm |
Also Solaris need real time alterations to catch up. |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| MinceR |
and afaik it differs from solaris in a lot of things |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| oiaohm |
Real time altertations to Linux kernel doubled to quaded the threw put of super computers running Linux. |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| MinceR |
schestowitz: i’d rather see sun die — they’ve shown no intent to cooperate |
Feb 04 12:59 |
| oob |
whoa |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| oob |
that’s a bit rough |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| schestowitz |
We need Sun |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| MinceR |
well, check out the zfs/cddl issue then |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| schestowitz |
Java, OOo… |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| oiaohm |
Before the alterations Linux suppers were beating sun. |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| MinceR |
java sucks, ooo sucks |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| oob |
what about nfs? nis+? java? tcl/tk? openoffice? ldap? |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| schestowitz |
MinceR: we get btrfs (better fs than zfs |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| schestowitz |
It’ll get better over time |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| MinceR |
schestowitz: through no virtue of sun |
Feb 04 13:00 |
| MinceR |
i’ve never used nfs and nis |
Feb 04 13:01 |
| MinceR |
and i abhor tcl/tk |
Feb 04 13:01 |
| oob |
okay well, once upon a time a very long time ago, nfs/nis was very important to a lot of people |
Feb 04 13:01 |
| oiaohm |
tk was one of the first toolkits |
Feb 04 13:01 |
| oiaohm |
So being bad is kinda to be expected. |
Feb 04 13:01 |
| oiaohm |
Biggest advnatage solarias had over Linux is its containers. |
Feb 04 13:02 |
| oiaohm |
Linux is catching up on them verry quicky. |
Feb 04 13:02 |
| MinceR |
the language is ugly, too |
Feb 04 13:03 |
| oiaohm |
TCL yes that is also old. |
Feb 04 13:03 |
| MinceR |
oob: well, those times have passed |
Feb 04 13:03 |
| oiaohm |
It is a little nicer than Bash. |
Feb 04 13:03 |
| MinceR |
lol |
Feb 04 13:03 |
| oob |
MinceR, as a matter of fact they haven’t, nfs is still extremely prevalent |
Feb 04 13:03 |
| oob |
though i’ll grant you, nis has died |
Feb 04 13:04 |
| MinceR |
“once upon a time a very long time ago” |
Feb 04 13:04 |
| *oob sighs |
Feb 04 13:04 |
| oob |
once upon a time a very long time ago, the _combination_ of nfs and nis.. |
Feb 04 13:04 |
| MinceR |
well, that combination is dead now :> |
Feb 04 13:04 |
| oob |
indeed, superseded by ldap |
Feb 04 13:05 |
| oiaohm |
ldap for some reason keeps on going. |
Feb 04 13:05 |
| oiaohm |
And going and going. |
Feb 04 13:05 |
| oob |
what would you suggest we use as a replacement? |
Feb 04 13:05 |
| oiaohm |
Really ldap will not be replaced because I don’t think anyone can design a replacement. But it will get extented again. This time by open source. |
Feb 04 13:07 |
| MinceR |
do you suggest we celebrate sun as the champion of FLOSS for something they did ages ago, despite what they’re doing now? |
Feb 04 13:07 |
| MinceR |
i’m sure that would make sun very happy |
Feb 04 13:07 |
| oiaohm |
Sun is no longer a computer super power. |
Feb 04 13:08 |
| MinceR |
which is fortunate |
Feb 04 13:08 |
| oob |
i’m saying that we should acknowledge sun’s longstanding contributions to and involvement with f/oss, balanced by the knowledge that they are a commercial enterprise whose better days are now gone |
Feb 04 13:08 |
| *Casperin (n=Casperin@1607ds6-vby.0.fullrate.dk) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 13:08 |
| oiaohm |
Really not. Sun was one of the first to be fullly open about there hardware specs. |
Feb 04 13:08 |
| MinceR |
it’s all ancient history now |
Feb 04 13:09 |
| oiaohm |
That has never changed. |
Feb 04 13:09 |
| MinceR |
their hostility to linux isn’t. |
Feb 04 13:09 |
| oiaohm |
Hostility to Linux is understandable. Remember sun at one point controled 45 percent of the super market. |
Feb 04 13:09 |
| oiaohm |
They now hold less than 5. |
Feb 04 13:09 |
| oiaohm |
Cause Linux. |
Feb 04 13:10 |
| oiaohm |
You are talking about billions of dollars of income cut off there bottom line. |
Feb 04 13:10 |
| oob |
*bsd is hostile towards linux, and to gnu in general, yet their contribution is still valuable. let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water, it’s a good thing that there is choice at the platform layer just as their is at other layers |
Feb 04 13:10 |
| MinceR |
it’s understandable, but not compatible with their trying to parade as teh great FLOSS champions |
Feb 04 13:11 |
| oiaohm |
Linux does need competition. |
Feb 04 13:11 |
| MinceR |
*bsd fanboys are hostile because nobody cares about them because they’re averse to innovation |
Feb 04 13:11 |
| oiaohm |
Not like MS stands a chance in the super market any time soon. |
Feb 04 13:11 |
| oob |
mincer – they’re very keen on api/abi stability |
Feb 04 13:12 |
| MinceR |
i’d rather see hurd compete with linux |
Feb 04 13:12 |
| MinceR |
oob: i’m sure using an outdated init/rc system has a lot to do with that |
Feb 04 13:12 |
| oiaohm |
Hostity between competing projects is kinda normal. |
Feb 04 13:12 |
| oiaohm |
Remember the old hostity between KDE and Gnome. |
Feb 04 13:12 |
| MinceR |
oiaohm: nope, you can compete without being hostile |
Feb 04 13:12 |
| MinceR |
i only remember the flame wars between fanboys. |
Feb 04 13:13 |
| oob |
bsd is a superb platform, it out-performs linux on a variety of workloads. it’s code stacks up well too, it’s a lot tighter and cleaner than the linux kernel and gnu stuff |
Feb 04 13:13 |
| oiaohm |
in 1995 it was at the developer level MinceR |
Feb 04 13:13 |
| oiaohm |
Over time it cooled off. |
Feb 04 13:13 |
| MinceR |
linux outperforms bsd in many cases |
Feb 04 13:13 |
| oiaohm |
As they saw it was more helpful to work with each other. |
Feb 04 13:13 |
| oob |
oiaohm, are you speaking of the ximian propaganda back in the day? |
Feb 04 13:14 |
| MinceR |
and “tighter and cleaner” is handwaving. |
Feb 04 13:14 |
| MinceR |
gnu tools have more functionality than bsd tools do. |
Feb 04 13:14 |
| oiaohm |
I am talking about the time I tried to get KDE and Gnome developers to sit down and develop a common menu format. |
Feb 04 13:14 |
| oiaohm |
Yes not fun. |
Feb 04 13:14 |
| oiaohm |
1 and a half years of bickering. |
Feb 04 13:15 |
| oob |
mincer – i reckon you should run bsd for a while. you might like it. i suggest you try it as a desktop, or file/web server, or firewall |
Feb 04 13:15 |
| oiaohm |
Most of the time putting out flames on both sides. |
Feb 04 13:15 |
| oob |
i also recommend that you have a look at the code. the fact that sun and bsd can both trace their ancestory to the original at&t codebase and has been largely maintained by professional developers, shows. |
Feb 04 13:15 |
| oiaohm |
Hopefully over time solarias and Linux will become friendly with each other. |
Feb 04 13:15 |
| MinceR |
i’ve already tried to admin a freebsd chroot |
Feb 04 13:15 |
| MinceR |
it was not fun |
Feb 04 13:15 |
| MinceR |
with its random deviations from the way things are usually done, none of which were documented anywhere |
Feb 04 13:16 |
| oiaohm |
Freebsd lot of performance advantages are going by by. |
Feb 04 13:16 |
| MinceR |
i eventually gave up trying to install mysql into it and just used one on a debian box. |
Feb 04 13:16 |
| oiaohm |
turns out most of Linux trouble comes from spinlocks in the wrong places. |
Feb 04 13:16 |
| oiaohm |
To be correct there is almost no such thing as a correct spinlock. |
Feb 04 13:16 |
| oiaohm |
Most cases you should be using ques instead of spinlocks so you don’t tie up cpu time. |
Feb 04 13:17 |
| oiaohm |
Even freebsd could go a lot faster if they started spinlock removeal. |
Feb 04 13:17 |
| MinceR |
http://bulk.fefe.de/scalability/ |
Feb 04 13:17 |
| MinceR |
“Linux 2.6 scales O(1) in all benchmarks.” |
Feb 04 13:18 |
| oiaohm |
2.6.29 is faster than 2.6.0 used in that benchmark. |
Feb 04 13:20 |
| oiaohm |
And there are still more speed issues to be removed. |
Feb 04 13:20 |
| oob |
okay, i know from my own experience that bsd is superior under real-world workloads. i wouldn’t use anything but bsd for a web or file server |
Feb 04 13:23 |
| schestowitz |
oob: ” professional developers”? Free work is not professional? |
Feb 04 13:23 |
| MinceR |
so from your feelings in a few isolated cases, you proclaim bsd superior |
Feb 04 13:24 |
| MinceR |
how typical |
Feb 04 13:24 |
| oob |
schestowitz, a lot of the code in the linux kernel is pretty shoddy, in comparison with that in other members of the unix family. |
Feb 04 13:24 |
| MinceR |
and the handwaving about ancestry |
Feb 04 13:24 |
| MinceR |
see, this is why i don’t argue with *bsd fanboys |
Feb 04 13:24 |
| oob |
ha |
Feb 04 13:25 |
| oiaohm |
oob look are what is going on with 2.6.29 |
Feb 04 13:25 |
| oob |
now i’m a bsd fanboi? you sir, are a dick. |
Feb 04 13:25 |
| schestowitz |
oob: AT&T/Bell can program better than IBM/HP/Intel/Oracle/RHT? |
Feb 04 13:25 |
| MinceR |
no, sir, YOU are a dick. |
Feb 04 13:25 |
| oiaohm |
Lot of the Linux code base is cleaning. |
Feb 04 13:25 |
| oiaohm |
That is where they are getting there peformance boosts from at moment. |
Feb 04 13:25 |
| oob |
schestowitz, the code is simply better. if you don’t believe me, look for yourself |
Feb 04 13:26 |
| oiaohm |
2.6.29 also has a major permissions change. They all moving into one single struct. |
Feb 04 13:26 |
| oiaohm |
BSD guys really need to take note of what was found with the real time guys and network load. |
Feb 04 13:26 |
| oiaohm |
Remove spinlocks increase threw put by a insane ammount. |
Feb 04 13:27 |
| oiaohm |
Spinlock basically equals cpu wasting valueable processing time waiting for access to something to come up. |
Feb 04 13:27 |
| oiaohm |
On larger scay things that can bey like 200 to 800+ percent waste. |
Feb 04 13:29 |
| *oiaohm_ (n=oiaohm@203.212.150.48) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 13:33 |
| oiaohm_ |
Hmm connection broke |
Feb 04 13:33 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Nick collision from services.) |
Feb 04 13:39 |
| oiaohm_ |
Please do say I Killed the argument. |
Feb 04 13:39 |
| schestowitz |
No. |
Feb 04 13:59 |
| schestowitz |
I was just busy myself writing about patents (big post) |
Feb 04 13:59 |
| oiaohm_ |
http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&20… << For once he found something great |
Feb 04 14:08 |
| oiaohm_ |
A real old document on patents. |
Feb 04 14:09 |
| *Casperin has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 14:10 |
| amarsh04 |
schestowitz, just caught up as I’d worked 12 hours each Mon and Tues and house hasn’t cooled down yet |
Feb 04 14:13 |
| schestowitz |
Did you read what I pinged you about? |
Feb 04 14:14 |
| amarsh04 |
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/20… – morgue full |
Feb 04 14:14 |
| amarsh04 |
yes, thanks |
Feb 04 14:14 |
| amarsh04 |
was exchanging emails with Pia Waugh today about OLPC stuff |
Feb 04 14:14 |
| schestowitz |
Cool. |
Feb 04 14:15 |
| schestowitz |
“SA’s main morgue at the Forensic Science Office is holding 71 bodies, just one below capacity.” |
Feb 04 14:15 |
| schestowitz |
“Mr Atkinson says the main morgue is almost full because of a number of possible heat-related deaths and because relatives of the deceased are delaying funerals until the heatwave is over.” |
Feb 04 14:15 |
| schestowitz |
It was similar in France about 3 years ago |
Feb 04 14:16 |
| amarsh04 |
what I can state publicly was that she was involved in OLPC Australia but something that I still don’t know about happened and now she is involved in another group called OLPC friends |
Feb 04 14:16 |
| amarsh04 |
I remember that |
Feb 04 14:16 |
| amarsh04 |
OLPC Australia had a G1G1 scheme for Australians but it wasn’t publicised and very few people actually ordered a machine that way |
Feb 04 14:17 |
| schestowitz |
Yes, no surprise |
Feb 04 14:17 |
| amarsh04 |
I told Pia Waugh that I didn’t feel that the .au G1G1 scheme had enough community involvement to work |
Feb 04 14:18 |
| oiaohm_ |
Catch you around all. |
Feb 04 14:18 |
| schestowitz |
OLPC was left with fewer means when it got sued, maybe at the behest of Intelsoft |
Feb 04 14:18 |
| amarsh04 |
one Adelaide person officially worked on OLPC |
Feb 04 14:18 |
| *oiaohm_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) |
Feb 04 14:18 |
| schestowitz |
http://www.olpcnews.com/use_cases/community/… |
Feb 04 14:18 |
| amarsh04 |
there was too much trust betrayed. If you look at the openmoko project and opengraphics project, trust is built up slowly and constantly worked on |
Feb 04 14:18 |
| schestowitz |
Yes, tessier_ knows that about OpenMoko |
Feb 04 14:20 |
| amarsh04 |
I’ve emailed Joel Stanley, the Adelaide OLPC person a couple of times, seems like a good person |
Feb 04 14:20 |
| amarsh04 |
I’ve still been working hard on what is happening with the “Integrated Public Number Database” (IPND), the collection of addresses and telephone numbers sent when someone calls 000 for an ambulance fire dept or polic |
Feb 04 14:22 |
| amarsh04 |
s/polic/police/ |
Feb 04 14:22 |
| amarsh04 |
finally spoke to Telstra’s acting chief privacy officer on the phone today after one of the lackeys in Telstra’s privacy section hung up on me |
Feb 04 14:23 |
| *Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.20.59) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 14:23 |
| Omar87 |
Hi schestowitz |
Feb 04 14:23 |
| Omar87 |
You might wanna take a look at this: http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/02/03/simpl… |
Feb 04 14:24 |
| MinceR |
http://everything2.com/?node=… |
Feb 04 14:26 |
| amarsh04 |
I wrote to our Communications Minister saying that I couldn’t find a copy of Telstra’s Carrier (Telephone company) licence on the Communications Department’s web site. His lackey refered me back to the communications regulator, whom I’d asked the same question of 2 weeks ago and haven’t heard back yet |
Feb 04 14:27 |
| schestowitz |
amarsh04: Telstra seems evil based on what I read. |
Feb 04 14:28 |
| amarsh04 |
I’m going to call telstra in the morning and say if they can’t show me their carrier licence, why should I believe that they’re a licenced telco |
Feb 04 14:28 |
| schestowitz |
Hey, Omar87 |
Feb 04 14:28 |
| amarsh04 |
Trujillo and his amigos deservedly cop a lot |
Feb 04 14:28 |
| amarsh04 |
the last pre-privatisation boss, Mel Ward was a technical able fellow who wanted to build a modern network that did what people wanted |
Feb 04 14:29 |
| schestowitz |
Omar87: I wrote about it a few hours ago |
Feb 04 14:29 |
| schestowitz |
Microsoft shoots itself in the foot for profit and for prohibition of competition on the low end |
Feb 04 14:29 |
| amarsh04 |
my ISP has full debian, kernel.org and soureforge.net mirrors (-: |
Feb 04 14:30 |
| amarsh04 |
glad to hear that the boycottnovell.com database is back up and running btw |
Feb 04 14:30 |
| amarsh04 |
one datacentre company has had their website disappear after they had a major outage after main and backup power failed |
Feb 04 14:32 |
| amarsh04 |
the company will probably lose customers and make out-of-court settlements in exchange for shutting up disgruntled customers |
Feb 04 14:32 |
| amarsh04 |
best site for ISP/telco information in .au is www.whirlpool.net.au – text only too |
Feb 04 14:33 |
| schestowitz |
amarsh04: we have backups in many places |
Feb 04 14:33 |
| schestowitz |
It’s important to just keep them as up to date as possible |
Feb 04 14:33 |
| *Casperin (n=Casperin@1607ds6-vby.0.fullrate.dk) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 14:34 |
| amarsh04 |
back soon |
Feb 04 14:43 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Remote closed the connection) |
Feb 04 14:43 |
| Omar87 |
schestowitz: Can you give me a link to the article you wrote about it? |
Feb 04 14:46 |
| *amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-175-21.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 14:47 |
| schestowitz |
http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0… |
Feb 04 14:50 |
| schestowitz |
Microsoft does EDGI in Jordan as well: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/16/… |
Feb 04 14:51 |
| amarsh04 |
wedgi? |
Feb 04 14:51 |
| amarsh04 |
I mentioned to someone at work “In a world without walls or fences, who needs windows and gates?” and they thought it was quite clever |
Feb 04 14:52 |
| schestowitz |
Yes, wedgi too |
Feb 04 14:53 |
| schestowitz |
I think it’s an older acronym |
Feb 04 14:53 |
| schestowitz |
Let me recheck |
Feb 04 14:53 |
| schestowitz |
Here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/… |
Feb 04 14:53 |
| schestowitz |
“We had a presentation on Edgi (aka Wedgi) at MGB, but this document actually takes you through what it entails. |
Feb 04 14:53 |
| schestowitz |
Brian had mentioned a school district that this might be an excellent candidate for — are there others? Let’s make |
Feb 04 14:53 |
| schestowitz |
sure we use this new tool in our tool box if we can make it make sense” |
Feb 04 14:53 |
| schestowitz |
They actually call it wedgi… like pulling a wedgi on Linux. |
Feb 04 14:54 |
| *Casperin has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) |
Feb 04 14:54 |
| schestowitz |
They have another variation in names. |
Feb 04 14:54 |
| *Casperin (n=Casperin@x1-6-00-1e-2a-29-69-de.k112.webspeed.dk) has joined #boycottnovell |
Feb 04 14:57 |
Content is available under CC-BY-SA